interesting description, history of beer

[wortchillergoal]

I thought some might find this interesting. I was directed here from ask.com on what is difference between beer and ale. I believe steveh would have a hayday with this site.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-beer-and-ale.htm

[gestyr]

Interesting link. I like this reference: "many German specialty beers such as Abbey ales". :D

[BrewDog]

<Sigh>
ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!
<Sigh>

[East Coaster]

Haven't read this yet but according to Rany Mosher when hops were integrated into beer production (first traces 746 A.D.) it was a way to distinguish between the two used in England.

Beer was an ale with hops.

[East Coaster]

But of course most of you already knew that stippet of info in the first place.;)

[Mikegobrew]

But of course most of you already knew that stippet of info in the first place.;)

Not me, thanks for any info!

[East Coaster]

Good to see some information about beer even though this site is a bit misconstrued, some of the facts are a little erroneous but good on them for an attempt. guess you can't always believe what you read, BUT Reading is my main source of enlightenment! A sad day indeed.

[wortchillergoal]

Haven't read this yet but according to Rany Mosher when hops were integrated into beer production (first traces 746 A.D.) it was a way to distinguish between the two used in England.

Beer was an ale with hops.

Looking at a cpuple of different sources, lagers at best did not appear until 1020. Most sources put lagers in the 1840s. So that does not seem to jive with the time line of beer.

[steveh]

So that does not seem to jive with the time line of beer.

I think he's trying to point out the origin of the term "beer," as a distinction to "ale." Not lager to ale.

Thing is, when I started reading Jackson, sometime in the late '80s, he always just used "beer" as the all-encompassing umbrella, with bottom & top fermenting varieties as the first division.

Jackson always considered "ales" as a subset of top fermenting beers, along with Stouts, Porters, Wits, Weizen, Alt, Kölsch -- etc. Ales were then subset into Bitter, Special Bitter, ESB, Scottish, Irish, etc. I posted a link to the Jackson chart of beer a few years ago, lord knows where.

It's only recently that "ale" became a direct synonym for "top-fermented beer." Sort of a "dumbing down" if you ask me. I don't know of any Weizen brewers who would call their beer an "ale."

S.

[wortchillergoal]

I think he's trying to point out the origin of the term "beer," as a distinction to "ale." Not lager to ale.

Thing is, when I started reading Jackson, sometime in the late '80s, he always just used "beer" as the all-encompassing umbrella, with bottom & top fermenting varieties as the first division.

Jackson always considered "ales" as a subset of top fermenting beers, along with Stouts, Porters, Wits, Weizen, Alt, Kölsch -- etc. Ales were then subset into Bitter, Special Bitter, ESB, Scottish, Irish, etc. I posted a link to the Jackson chart of beer a few years ago, lord knows where.

It's only recently that "ale" became a direct synonym for "top-fermented beer." Sort of a "dumbing down" if you ask me. I don't know of any Weizen brewers who would call their beer an "ale."

S.

Point well taken steveh. It seems though that hops were in use before man was fully cognizant of there being two different types of yeast.

[steveh]

It seems though that hops were in use before man was fully cognizant of there being two different types of yeast.

Most definitely.

And don't forget, hops were originally used as a preservative, of sorts. It took some time before the recipes (or maybe it was just taste buds?) started to work the flavors together in harmony and consider the hop as a true ingredient.

S.

[beerking]

Until the mid-1800s, man did not even know what yeast was. Brewers transferred various things from one batch to the next, from active beer to sticks, to get the ferment going.
The German's called that brown stuff that collected at the bottom of the fermenter "God is good!"

[steveh]

The German's called that brown stuff that collected at the bottom of the fermenter "God is good!"

...I think the translation has been lost somewhere, do you have the actual German, auf Deutsch?

S.

[beerking]

No, but I remember reading (in Engliish, although I can read German), that yeast, before they knew what it was, was generally referred to as "God is good."

[steveh]

...was generally referred to as "God is good."

But that doesn't sound grammatically correct and I wonder if it's being translated too literally.

Sort of like Gruß Gott! Which, literally translated means "Greetings God," but the vernacular is "Greetings from God."

S.

[wortchillergoal]

Most definitely.

And don't forget, hops were originally used as a preservative, of sorts. It took some time before the recipes (or maybe it was just taste buds?) started to work the flavors together in harmony and consider the hop as a true ingredient.

S.

In fact, at one point the use and growing of hops was illegal.

[steveh]

Must have missed that chapter -- do tell.

S.

[wortchillergoal]

Must have missed that chapter -- do tell.

S.

1471 in Norwich, England. In Cologne, Germany the archbishop had a monopolistic hold on gruit and tried to control hop usage.

[BrewDog]

So, which strains that you have don't ferment all the way through the beer? I've always wanted to see one that only ferments across the top without mixing or leaving a trub layer underneath. Likewise, i've always wanted to see one that ferments on the bottom without any yeast rising up to mix with the rest of the beer or forming a krausen.

Can you tell I HATE the terms "Top Fermenting" and "Bottom Fermenting"???? They are so inaccurate and misleading.

[East Coaster]

once again referencing Mosher.

"Ancient people were clearly aware of yeast Sumerians had fifty words related to it"

Perchance god is good predated the Germans but it later states that a bottom fermenting yeast had developped as early as the 15th century.

In 1680 Yeast was first viewed under the microscope by the dutch, Louis pasteur did some work with it in 1857 working at Carlsberg, and in 1885 Emil christian Hansen Isolated the first strain.

There was also an exerpt of the Finnish-hungarian national epic poem where Osmotar the brewer has a hard time turning his wort into beer. Untill he adds Wild honey which had bee gathered yeasts.

not sure if this was any help?

[East Coaster]

ahh just came across this as well.

www.allaboutbeer.com/features/aletrail.html

[East Coaster]

1471 in Norwich, England. In Cologne, Germany the archbishop had a monopolistic hold on gruit and tried to control hop usage.

Also note that the german purity law was first created to prevent the use of wheat in brewing as the king had a "monopolistic hold" on the barley fields and I believe either yeast or hops were adjunct from the first law as they were not used (hops) or unknown (yeast). either one was not included but no tboth, I just seem to forget which one.

[steveh]

There was also an exerpt of the Finnish-hungarian national epic poem

Finnish Hungarian? Those two countries are separated by 6 other countries, I don't remember ever reading about any sort of empire. Maybe Austro-Hungarian?

S.

[steveh]

Can you tell I HATE the terms "Top Fermenting" and "Bottom Fermenting"????

It's all about where the bulk of the major work is done! ;)

S.

[steveh]

1471 in Norwich, England. In Cologne, Germany the archbishop had a monopolistic hold on gruit and tried to control hop usage.

Interesting, always nice to find little histories that flew under the radar. Is that in the Mosher book? Or maybe some of the links others added?

S.

[steveh]

ahh just came across this as well.

www.allaboutbeer.com/features/aletrail.html

For centuries brewers in English-speaking countries called yeast "God-is-good" as they stood in awe of the curious, fudge-colored substance that miraculously turned their sweet worts into ale

Well, first of all it's English-speaking, which is contradictory to what King was talking about, and it's still grammatically weird -- doesn't sound like they were actually calling the yeast anything, more like exclaiming their glee at the miracle -- which makes a lot of sense.

Then again, it's Protz's quote, who am I to scoff?

S.

[beerking]

Also note that the german purity law was first created to prevent the use of wheat in brewing as the king had a "monopolistic hold" on the barley fields and I believe either yeast or hops were adjunct from the first law as they were not used (hops) or unknown (yeast). either one was not included but no tboth, I just seem to forget which one.

It was yeast. They did not know about it, so it was not in the original RHGB. Later yeast was added to the law.

[beerking]

Well, first of all it's English-speaking, which is contradictory to what King was talking about, and it's still grammatically weird -- doesn't sound like they were actually calling the yeast anything, more like exclaiming their glee at the miracle -- which makes a lot of sense.

Then again, it's Protz's quote, who am I to scoff?

S.

I must have mis-remembered the original source. Heck, maybe it was the Saxons. :D

[steveh]

What East Coaster is referring to is:

The Reinheitsgebot was introduced in part to prevent price competition with bakers for wheat and rye. The restriction of grains to barley was meant to ensure the availability of sufficient amounts of affordable bread, as the more valuable wheat and rye were reserved for use by bakers.

S.

[steveh]

Heck, maybe it was the Saxons. :D

Probably the Flemms. :D Just joking!!

S.

[wortchillergoal]

So, which strains that you have don't ferment all the way through the beer? I've always wanted to see one that only ferments across the top without mixing or leaving a trub layer underneath. Likewise, i've always wanted to see one that ferments on the bottom without any yeast rising up to mix with the rest of the beer or forming a krausen.

Can you tell I HATE the terms "Top Fermenting" and "Bottom Fermenting"???? They are so inaccurate and misleading.

I agree. How does yeast know, not having a brain, which is the top and which is the bottom of the vessel the wort is in? Also, what would happen if you were to suddenly invert said vessel?

[Seanibus]

I agree. How does yeast know, not having a brain, which is the top and which is the bottom of the vessel the wort is in? Also, what would happen if you were to suddenly invert said vessel?

And what would happen if we were to brew in Space? Christ, think of the chaos that would result. We'd have Imperial India Pale Lagers and Victory Prima Ales, and cats would marry dogs and up would be down and an ethnic minority would be president, and I don't know what all.

Crazy, Innit?

[steveh]

Can you tell I HATE the terms "Top Fermenting" and "Bottom Fermenting"???? They are so inaccurate and misleading.

Interesting bit of information I discovered while reading Kölsch by Eric Warner, one of the Classic Beer Style series. Warner has been making his living from, in, and around beer for many years, and he graduated from Weihenstephan, so argue with him.

In talking about the clean sensory profile of Kölsch and the erroneous labeling of the style as a "hybrid,":


Yeasts are either top-fermenting or bottom-fermenting. They either have the ability to ferment raffinose, or they don't.

S.

[Wit Memo Jeff]

Sorry to come late to this thread but this is informative on the archaic view of ale vs. beer. From "The Book of Beer" by Andrew Campbell (London 1956):

'Ale,' wrote [Andrew] Boorde [Bishop of Chichester, 1521] 'is made of malt and water and they who put anything to ale than is rehearsed, except yeast, barm, or Godes good, doth sophisticate their ale. Beer is made of malt and hops and water and is the natural drink of a Dutchman.' 'Ale maketh a man strong.' Of beer, he said: 'of late days it is much used in England to the detriment of my own Englishman ... it is a cold drink, yet it doth make him fat and doth inflate the belly.'

[MeridianFC]

I've heard elsewhere, and tend to agree, that it's not the where (top or bottom) but the what as in what temperature do our little beasties work at.

[beerking]

There are ale yeasts that work well at cooler temperatures (I have even heard that SN has done some "lager-type" fermentation with their yeast), and there are lager yeasts that can be used at low end ale temperatures without excessive esters.
There are also ale yeasts that tend to work more at the bottom, and lager yeasts that clump and float like ale yeast.
The only real definitive difference is that lager yeast will ferment raffinose, and ale yeast cannot.