first extract

[evilredlight]

This is going to be my first extract beer
Any comments would be appreciated, but maybe not heeded.;)

and I am using wyeast3068 Weihenstephan Weizen yeast



Brewer: JU
Beer:
Style:
Extract Size: 23 liters
Color: 19 HCU (~11 SRM)
Bitterness: 13 IBU
OG: 1.068 FG: 1.010
Alcohol: 7.5% v/v (5.9% w/w)
Boil: minutes SG 1.156 10 liters
2kg (4.4#) Light dry malt extract
500g(1.1#) Dark dry malt extract
2kg (4.4#) Wheat extract
Hops: 20g Cascade (6% AA, 60 min.)
20g Hallertauer Mittelfruh (5% AA, 60 min.)
8g Cascade (6% AA, 30 min.)
8g Hallertauer Mittelfruh (5% AA, 30 min.)
20g Saaz (3.75% AA, 15 min.)
8g Saaz (aroma)



generated by The Beer Recipator.

[Tweek]

wierd I come up with more like 42 ibus. hmm maybe I did my grams to ounces conversion wrong.

[evilredlight]

28 grams in an oz. right?

[Jughead]

I get 42 IBUs too.

[GunNut76]

Just by looking at the recipe I figure around 30-40 IBU. I am forced to create my own recipes and I usually do it at work without acess to a computer and my OG and IBU calculations are pretty darn close, but that is just me. If you want to lower the IBU's get rid of one of your first and second hop additions. Keep the late additions tho if you were looking for the aroma and flavor.

My .02!

[Fast_Eddy]

The thing about IBU calculation is that it's nearly impossible to create a "real" number. There are two different accepted equations to calculate IBU's(that give wildly different values) and there is no less than 5 variables that affect utilization.

I've resolved myself to training my tastes to understand the bitterness that I will get from a quantity of hops as opposed to depending on calculated IBU's.

[Tweek]

there is roughly 28.5 grams per ounce. I had writtten out all my formulas on this so that you could chekc my math, but then when I hit post it said that I had too many icons in the post and to go back and correct it, when I went back my post was gone. There was no way I was going to rewrite it. Sorry.

[Fast_Eddy]

The IBU's as originally posted are pretty close to correct. The key/problem is the ultra high gravity of the boil - 10 liters at a whopping 1156. This high of a gravity leads to very poor isomerization of AA. Here's the ProMash recipe:

------------

EvilRedExtract

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 23.00 Wort Size (L): 10.00
Total Extract (kg): 4.50
Anticipated OG: 1.068 Plato: 16.64
Anticipated SRM: 8.4
Anticipated IBU: 17.2
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Garetz

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
44.4 2.00 kg. Alexander LME - Wheat America 1.037 4
44.4 2.00 kg. Generic DME - Light Generic 1.046 8
11.1 0.50 kg. Generic DME - Dark Generic 1.044 20

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
20.00 g. Cascade Pellet 6.00 7.5 60 min.
20.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 5.00 6.2 60 min.
8.00 g. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 5.00 1.4 30 min.
8.00 g. Cascade Pellet 6.00 1.6 30 min.
20.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.75 0.5 15 min.


Yeast
-----












-------------

[evilredlight]

thanks fast eddy,
for that indepth look at the recipe.
If I was to boil the hops separatly and add them as a tea would it be higher IBU.
I don't have the ability to boil all 23liters so i thought i would boil only 10 is this a bad idea? should i boil everything separate at regular OGs? Do I have to boil extracts for that long in order for the sugars to become convertible?

I guess i need to read some more but I really like the experimentation so I know exactly what happens, and why it is a bad taste or bad idea.

I believe the other factor tweek may have overlooked was the size of batch which is 23 litres 6.08 US gallons or 9.64 hogsheads. :)

I will try it tonight, but might slightly decrease hops
so that the yeasts tastes will come through more.

thanks again to everyone

[Tweek]

yup that is what I did. Sorry

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by evilredlight
thanks fast eddy,
for that indepth look at the recipe.
If I was to boil the hops separatly and add them as a tea would it be higher IBU.
I don't have the ability to boil all 23liters so i thought i would boil only 10 is this a bad idea? should i boil everything separate at regular OGs? Do I have to boil extracts for that long in order for the sugars to become convertible?

I guess i need to read some more but I really like the experimentation so I know exactly what happens, and why it is a bad taste or bad idea.

I believe the other factor tweek may have overlooked was the size of batch which is 23 litres 6.08 US gallons or 9.64 hogsheads. :)

I will try it tonight, but might slightly decrease hops
so that the yeasts tastes will come through more.

thanks again to everyone

The very high OG boil is not really a good or bad idea...it just leads to less bitterness in the beer(and probably a slightly darker beer since higher OG boils favor Maillard Reactions). The higher the OG of a boil the less alpha acids are changed into bittering compounds(iso-Alpha Acids). Whether or not to do it depends on what you want the beer to taste like. Adding more water to your boil will increase the IBU's so will boiling the wort longer(less so than adding more water).

Boiling extract does not convert anything. Extract is already fully available in terms of fermentables. Primary rationale behind boiling extract is:
1) Sanitation
2) Creation of break material
3) Iso-Alpha creation
4) Boiling stuff is fun and gives you chance to drink beer

[toneyc]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
4) Boiling stuff is fun and gives you chance to drink beer

Yeah!!!! But I hate it when I forget to add my whirlfloc tablet after enthusiastically pursuing #4.

:)
Toney.

[evilredlight]

so yes it was fun but messy to boil on the stove top.

I reduced the amount of malt added and did three separate boils.
Two hopped and one unhopped, there are a lot of variables but I will wait untill I can get more equipment before i start working out how to cut variable and keep consistancy. Right now it is about exuberant experimentation

and because of availability I changed the recipe a bit
and it came out even darker, but I'm not afraid of the dark.

1.5 kg golden light LME
642 g amber DME
500 g dark DME
2 kg wheat DME

14 g hallertaur 1 hour
14 g cascade 1 hour
10 g saaz 1 hour

10 g hallertaur 20 min
10 g cascade 20 min

6 g hallertaur finish
5 g cascade finish
6 g sazz finish

now I just have to wait 5 weeks to taste it

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by evilredlight
so yes it was fun but messy to boil on the stove top.

I reduced the amount of malt added and did three separate boils.
Two hopped and one unhopped, there are a lot of variables but I will wait untill I can get more equipment before i start working out how to cut variable and keep consistancy. Right now it is about exuberant experimentation

and because of availability I changed the recipe a bit
and it came out even darker, but I'm not afraid of the dark.

1.5 kg golden light LME
642 g amber DME
500 g dark DME
2 kg wheat DME

14 g hallertaur 1 hour
14 g cascade 1 hour
10 g saaz 1 hour

10 g hallertaur 20 min
10 g cascade 20 min

6 g hallertaur finish
5 g cascade finish
6 g sazz finish

now I just have to wait 5 weeks to taste it

So evilredlight - is this your first brew altogether? If so, welcome to this great obsession....er, I mean, hobby.

[evilredlight]

it is not my first brew
but my first non-kit.
but thank you for welcoming me
although the kits were quite high quality
and I always added something to them like hops
or honey or maple syrup to personalize it, this now feels like brewing. The one thing I found strange about going to all extract was the price more than doubled from kits. I am not one to worry to much about price for a good beer, but i assumed the more work i had to do, the less the price would be. My kits ranged from $20 to $30 canadian. Will the move to all grain double the price of a batch again?

It is only my fifth brew,
1st- is almost gone (two bottles in the fridge),
2nd- i didn't care for (Saved 6, drank a few, and poured a few),
3rd- is carbonating,
4th- is still in secondary,
5th- Just went into primary last night


It really is an obsession and I was hoping it wouldn't be a quick passing phase! I have had an obsession with good beer for quite a while and will always stop into a microbrewery and taste a pint if I can, half a pint if I can't.

I just recently realized that the next logical step from kit brewing was extract brewing, i don't know what I thought DME was for!
I am looking forward to a time when i can move to allgrain. but I don't think it will be within the year!

I also have to read alot more about the science involved, my library has a lot of books on the subject and now that i have a bit of holiday time, I can start to read about what i am doing wrong!

thanks to great board members and a great community of brewers, everyone gets to drink great beer !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fast_Eddy]

The price for all extract doubled from the kits? Same volume of beer? Geez, how much are you paying for extract?

[evilredlight]

about $11 dollars a kg. i guess i should go check some internet brewer supply sites.
then $8.95 for yeast
and about $2.50 an oz. for hops

[evilredlight]

so I checked and the prices are pretty consistant both sides of the border and in internet land

so maybe the kits were cheap?

In all the batch I brewed cost about $55 canadian or $41 US

what is the average cost of all-grain?

[Jughead]

What kind of kits have you been using? Were they the kind with a can of hopped syrup that you add a bunch of sugar to? These are cheap because you only get half of the fermentables from the kit, the other half comes from sugar.

All grain is usually pretty cheap. Figure around 10 lbs of malt at 1.50 /pound CAD. The price will vary depending on where you get the malt. Then add your yeast and hops. I usually end up around $25 -30 CAD.

[evilredlight]

I used two different kits Barons and Festabrew

festabrew is a full wort, fresh made by magnota estates winery in ontario. All you do is dump it into the primary and add yeast

barons is a half wort you dump it in primary add water to top up to full size and add yeast. It even comes with a small pack of aroma finishing hops

they are not cheap, the quality is quite good, and there is no sugar to add, but still they are cheaper than my extract was.

it seems weird to me

[toneyc]

My first all-grain batch last weekend was about $11 US. It is fairly low alcohol, but I really don't expect to go over $20 US, even for something spectacular. Now, that's usually because I am saving a little here and there, like no priming sugar (I keg) and no yeast (I parallel propagate). If I had to go all the way, with priming sugar and liquid yeast, I would probably end up spending closer to $25 US. Plus shipping, if I didn't pick it up myself or meet the minimum free shipping quota. I'm trying to get as much quality as I can for as cheap as I can, what can I say? I love this obsession!

:)
Toney.

[GunNut76]

$41? That's probably that Canadian money...adjusting...that's about $6.95 USD!:D Serriously tho...I pay about $4 per lb for my extract and my hops will never be over $1.50 per oz at my LHBS.

[toneyc]

That still seems a bit high. I'm looking at AHS' web page and they have Pale, Amber, and Dark extracts (LME) for $2.09/lb, and their DME varieties for $3.50/lb. I guess that's about $7.70/kg USD, which might be closer to the $11/kg CDN you mentioned if you're using DME. I dunno.

:)
Toney.

[S.F.B.]

Locally I can get Munton's DME for any where from $3.50/lb. to $2.67/lb. Depending on how much I want to buy at a time.

[GunNut76]

I ain't going to the cheapest place...just the closest. I did an online order for an air lock and some prime tabs that came to about $4.50, the shipping cost me $8, I payed $12.50 for an air lock and prime tabs!!! I go to my LHBS and get the same stuff for 3.50...oh well. :o

Incidently I pay 3.95/lb for DME and about 2.40/lb for LME.

[evilredlight]

the fermenting went very welll for this beer.
It was explosive, and after it calmed down I strained the yeast of the top and racked it to secondary, the gravity is 1.022. I used 4.4 pounds of wheat so i know there are unfermentables.
It is not what I wanted for my terminal gravity, but it is also not fermenting in secondary, NO BUBBLES!

Should I add more yeast? Should I bottle? Will it carbonate if i bottle it now?
I have been thinking about buying 4 bottles of Schnieder weisse pouring into a glass but saving the yeast at the bottom, Making a starter of 2 cups water 1 cup DME. pitching the yeast from bottles into starter, if this ferments, pitch it into beer, wait for ferment to start and then bottle. what do you think?

[axis714]

Evilredlight..I gotta tell ya, the hallertau and tettnang flavor hops sound great and im just tickled you chose to try saaz w/ a dark brew along with me :cool: looks like a well planned out extract brew..some steeping grains might of been a good addition 2..but personally speaking I myself wouldnt try a second ferment and definately wouldnt bottle while a ferment was in progress....my last wheat brew did the exact same thing went like hell in the primary then sat idle for conditioning, as compared to my stout thats still bubbling in secondary after 2 full weeks, so in my humble opinion let her settle and bottle up and condition awhile in bottles....hope it turns out ! Drink Hearty!

[fretlessman71]

My extract secondary didn't bubble at all either... and the SG didn't change a bit either! I figured that somehow I managed to halt fermentation, but decided against trying to stir any of it up again and get it going. Upon reading a few books, I find that maybe I ought to have agitated it a bit just to make sure that everything's alive in there. Did it get cold where your brewing is taking place? Even a little? Sometimes yeast can be pretty picky in the winter time. A thought is to swirl your fermenter around a fair amount and make sure it's just a little warmer in that general area and give it a few days. Of course, you already know that identical hydrometer readings a few days apart means that it's done doing its thing, and you're ready to bottle. There's still yeast enough in there, and when you prime your wort they'll get hungry enough to provide you with plenty of carbonation. I'm sure your beer will turn out better than my first extract beer (very mild infection, but still completely drinkable after 2 weeks in the bottle... I can't wait for another 2 weeks to go by!), so don't worry, relax, and in about 3 weeks you can have a homebrew!

[Fast_Eddy]

Just a reminder here - extract is not necessarily as fermentable as you think. Just because you're doing an extract brew with an expected final gravity of 1.012 doesn't mean that there's the possibility of getting there.

See fermentability percentages posted on thread:
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1399

I'm not saying that this is the problem here but at the same time it could be.