Stout recipe attempt

[cul8rv8]

OK, I think I've got this recipe design thing down, but one last time I would like a look-see by the more seasoned brewers to make sure I'm looking good on this. Again I set my efficiency low per the last couple batches, but that number has been coming up, so it may come up further than 55%.

Also, I'm looking to get a little more body out of it than the last stout I made, which was an extract kit about a year ago. The one thing I'm not sure about is if I want to use Crystal 120, or something lighter. If my memory serves, crystal doesn't add a lot of flavor, but aids in body and head retention. I went with the 120 for the mere fact that I want this stout to be, as Sam Elliot says in The Big Lebowski, "darker than a black steer's toucus on a moonless prairie night."

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - www.beersmith.com
Recipe: IFR(Instrument Flight Rules) Stout
Brewer: Fly By Night Brewing
Asst Brewer:
Style: Dry Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.84 gal
Estimated OG: 1.039 SG
Estimated Color: 44.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 40.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 55.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) Grain 71.43 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 9.52 %
1.00 lb Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 9.52 %
0.50 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.50 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 4.76 %
0.75 oz Northern Brewer [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 27.4 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 11.1 IBU
1.00 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (2 min) Hops 1.5 IBU
1 Pkgs Irish Ale (Wyeast Labs #1084) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 10.50 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step Add 15.75 qt of water at 164.8 F 152.0 F

[cul8rv8]

Oh, and I wanted to stick with UK hops, but with the price of hops these days, I have NB's on hand, so I decided to use them for bittering.

[BrewDog]

From the style guidelines:

=========================
13A. Dry Stout
Aroma: Coffee-like roasted barley and roasted malt aromas are prominent; may have slight chocolate, cocoa and/or grainy secondary notes. Esters medium-low to none. No diacetyl. Hop aroma low to none.

Appearance: Jet black to deep brown with garnet highlights in color. Can be opaque (if not, it should be clear). A thick, creamy, long-lasting, tan- to brown-colored head is characteristic.

Flavor: Moderate roasted, grainy sharpness, optionally with light to moderate acidic sourness, and medium to high hop bitterness. Dry, coffee-like finish from roasted grains. May have a bittersweet or unsweetened chocolate character in the palate, lasting into the finish. Balancing factors may include some creaminess, medium-low to no fruitiness, and medium to no hop flavor. No diacetyl.

Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium-full body, with a creamy character. Low to moderate carbonation. For the high hop bitterness and significant proportion of dark grains present, this beer is remarkably smooth. The perception of body can be affected by the overall gravity with smaller beers being lighter in body. May have a light astringency from the roasted grains, although harshness is undesirable.

Overall Impression: A very dark, roasty, bitter, creamy ale.

Comments: This is the draught version of what is otherwise known as Irish stout or Irish dry stout. Bottled versions are typically brewed from a significantly higher OG and may be designated as foreign extra stouts (if sufficiently strong). While most commercial versions rely primarily on roasted barley as the dark grain, others use chocolate malt, black malt or combinations of the three. The level of bitterness is somewhat variable, as is the roasted character and the dryness of the finish; allow for interpretation by brewers.

History: The style evolved from attempts to capitalize on the success of London porters, but originally reflected a fuller, creamier, more “stout” body and strength. When a brewery offered a stout and a porter, the stout was always the stronger beer (it was originally called a “Stout Porter”). Modern versions are brewed from a lower OG and no longer reflect a higher strength than porters.

Ingredients: The dryness comes from the use of roasted unmalted barley in addition to pale malt, moderate to high hop bitterness, and good attenuation. Flaked unmalted barley may also be used to add creaminess. A small percentage (perhaps 3%) of soured beer is sometimes added for complexity (generally by Guinness only). Water typically has moderate carbonate hardness, although high levels will not give the classic dry finish.

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.036 – 1.050
IBUs: 30 – 45 FG: 1.007 – 1.011
SRM: 25 – 40 ABV: 4 – 5%

Commercial Examples: Guinness Draught Stout (also canned), Murphy's Stout, Beamish Stout, O’Hara’s Celtic Stout, Russian River O.V.L. Stout, Three Floyd’s Black Sun Stout, Dorothy Goodbody’s Wholesome Stout, Orkney Dragonhead Stout, Old Dominion Stout, Goose Island Dublin Stout, Brooklyn Dry Stout

=========================


Drop the Crystal 120 and the black patent altogether. Black Patent makes a nice Porter, not a stout, and the Crystal 120 will add raisiny/pruny flavors that do not belong in a Dry Stout. Then add about 2 lbs flaked barley. Adjust your base malt to hit the same low OG.

The hops should really be bittering only, or low amounts of flavor and aroma (no more than 1/2 oz for the flavor and aroma additions each).

You can plus up the bittering addition to 1 oz Fuggles and then drop the NB to just enough to hit your target bittering level based on the alpha acid of the fuggles you actually buy.
40 IBUs is good for the style, the roast should support it well.

HTH-

[cul8rv8]

wow, I was way off on this one. lol Guess I need a little more work at it than I thought. Thanks for the advice, BD! I was trying to go off what I read in Designing Great Beers, but at the same time I was reading it while working, so I probably wasn't comprehending it as well as I should have.

[markaberrant]

As per the guidelines, you can in fact use black patent and chocolate in a dry stout, although roasted barley is the most common.

Crystal doesn't belong in a dry stout, but keep in mind that crystal malt will indeed contribute flavour and sweetness.

Standard dry stout recipe is:
70% base malt
20% flaked barley
10% roasted unmalted barley
bittering hops only, roughly 1:1 BU:GU ratio

I've got one planned in a few months, but I'm using a combo of black patent, chocolate and roasted barley.

[corkybstewart]

I just brewed my oatmeal stout with the same recipe I've been using for years. I do use a little crystal 120 and chocolate malt.

[markaberrant]

I just brewed my oatmeal stout with the same recipe I've been using for years. I do use a little crystal 120 and chocolate malt.

I wouldn't think of making an oatmeal stout without them.

[cul8rv8]

what if I drop the crystal and black patent, up the flaked wheat to a pound, and add 1/2 lb of chocolate malt? I made an extract kit stout a year ago, just didn't have the body or head retention I was looking for, and was not opaque like I really want to get this time around.

The wheat will give me better retention, right? Could even up that to 1.5 lbs and drop the Maris Otter to 7 lbs to keep my OG on the low side and give me room if my efficiency improves. And the chocolate malt will give the dark color I want, and a slight chocolate note. Or will 1/2 lb be too much?

Keeping in mind I did also change the hop schedule around a bit, 1/2 oz NB and 1 oz Fuggles at 60min, 1/2 oz Fuggles at 20 and again at 2. Puts me at 40.1 IBUs, with an estimated 1.038 OG for a 1.051 BU/SG.

[markaberrant]

I think 1lb of roasted barley and .5lb of chocolate would be way too much dark malt.

I suppose you could go with flaked wheat instead of flaked barley, either will give you similar results.

[cul8rv8]

only reason I said flaked wheat is I have 1/2 lb on hand already. I keep saying wheat, but if I'm buying more, I'll just buy flaked barley instead.

I think it's going to come down to making a decision and just going for it. I mean, that's the whole point of homebrewing is to make something different, and make it how you like it. I will probably make it, taste it, then make it again with any changes I feel should be made. I don't do that enough, I don't think. Only beer I have really done that with is my wit, and I got it just how I like it finally.

[cul8rv8]

ok, here's another question. I have had a request that the stout be similar to Guinness in the sense that it has that slightly sour bite to it. I've been reading today about a few different ways to achieve that, one that sounds like a horrible, horrible idea, 1 that sounds manageable if my OHBS sold the right thing (and if it actually works), and a 3rd that sounds almost too easy.

The first way I have read is to take a bottle or two of Guinness, pour it into a bowl or some sort of open container, and let it sit out on my kitchen counter for a few days. Then add that to the fermenter. I would assume you would want to at least heat that up to around 170-180 for a couple minutes to pasturize it so the whole batch doesn't spoil. But I have also read a horror story or two where they did this, and the soured Guinness smelled so awful that they nearly lost their lunch, if you will, with just a whiff. That doesn't sound like the way to go.

The second thing I've read is using a bit of acid malt in the grist. But from what I understand, that actually lowers the pH of the mash, which is not what you want to do, I don't believe. I am using RO water, as my tap water, though I haven't gotten a full water report, just tastes absolutely awful. My vet won't even let me give it to my dog, as Vegas water has been known to give dogs kidney stones.

The third, which is probably the route I will take, is to add a touch of lactic acid at bottling. This seems to me to be the best route, but the problem is how much to add. I've seen everything from 20cc's to 80cc's. Obviously I'd start with the 20cc's, as I'd rather have too little than too much.


I'm sure with my water that I am going to need to add some things to harden it a bit, but I do have the good old 5.2 Stabilizer. But, as I haven't really done any water changes before, I'm not certain what I would need to add. Should I stick with the 5.2, or should I add some chalk or burton salts? I don't think it will be absolutely necessary, but again, just trying to learn and expand my abilities.

[cul8rv8]

ok, let me add one more thing. I'm trying to read and research on RO water. It sounds to me, after what reading I have just done real quick, that the RO water I am using is likely at a pH of 6, and *should* have nothing in it.

Basically, the system I use to get my RO water does all of the following (copied from wikipedia)...
- a sediment filter to trap particles including rust and calcium carbonate
- a second sediment filter with smaller pores
- an activated carbon filter to trap organic chemicals, and chlorine which will attack and degrade TFC reverse osmosis membranes
- a reverse osmosis (RO) filter which is a thin film composite membrane (TFM or TFC)
- a second carbon filter to capture those chemicals not removed by the RO membrane.
- an ultra-violet lamp is used for disinfection of any microbes that may escape filtering by the reverse osmosis membrane.


So in theory, it should remove just about everything from the water. So using the water profile tool in BeerSmith, I put in the RO water with all zeros and a pH of 6, then converted to Dublin water and I think I get the following if I did this right.

1 gm Gypsum
.5gm Table salt
1 gm Epsom Salt
.5gm Baking Soda
5 gm Chalk

Puts me within about 6ppm or closer on everything other than the Bicarbonate, which is short about 23ppm. Seems to me that would be pretty close.

[Seanibus]

OK, I think I've got this recipe design thing down, but one last time I would like a look-see by the more seasoned brewers to make sure I'm looking good on this. Again I set my efficiency low per the last couple batches, but that number has been coming up, so it may come up further than 55%.


Wow, that recipe is almost exactly the all-grain equivalent of my first successful homebrew, which was extract but was otherwise exactly like this one.

I'd say it will be wonderful, however low your efficiency may be.

[Indytom]

cul8rv8,

Do you use brewing software? I use Beersmith and it has a water calculator built in. You can adjust the amounts of various salts and it shows in real time the effect that it would have on water makeup. If you are shooting for Guiness, I would guess that you would want to shoot for the profile of Dublin water which comes pre-programed into the program. So just set Dublin as your target water and distilled water as your base water. Just play around with the amounts of the various salts to match the profile you are looking for.

Tom

[cul8rv8]

Yep, that's what I did. :) My concern is what to start with for the RO water. Like I said, I am assuming RO would have zeros across the board.

So using the water profile tool in BeerSmith, I put in the RO water with all zeros and a pH of 6, then converted to Dublin water

[Indytom]

You are right. RO is essentially the same as distilled. If the RO membrane in the unit is in good shape, nothing but water really makes it through. Our water is extremely hard and our town partially softens our water before it goes into the pipe, so the sodium content is a little over 200 ppm right out of the tap, and it tastes like crap on top of that.

Tom

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Cut back on the roasted barley to between 1/2 lb - 3/4 lb and up the chocolate just a smidge, 1 lb of roasted barley is a lot and would be likely to leave too much of a burnt flavor in the finished product.

[Mill Rat]

Keep in mind that most commercial brewers use a quite simple recipe. They do gain some additional control from very tight mash temperature control. My preference is for a more simple recipe, too. This is my latest iteration:

7 lb maris otter
.5 lb some crystal, anywhere from 20 to 120 L
1 lb roasted barley I also like coffee you have to chew before swallowing it, so maybe that's a bit much
2 oz wheat malt for head retention
2 oz acidulated malt
Enough of some sort of English hops at 60 minutes to hit ~40 IBU.
Mash at 145 F, 1 hour boil.

[cul8rv8]

I also like coffee you have to chew before swallowing it, so maybe that's a bit much


Ahh yes, I am exactly the same way. I have been banned from making coffee at the office because I make "army coffee." I like it thick, black, and way strong. And now all I can picture is the little girl in Airplane!

[Mad Scientist]

So in theory, it should remove just about everything from the water. So using the water profile tool in BeerSmith, I put in the RO water with all zeros and a pH of 6, then converted to Dublin water and I think I get the following if I did this right.

1 gm Gypsum
.5gm Table salt
1 gm Epsom Salt
.5gm Baking Soda
5 gm Chalk

Puts me within about 6ppm or closer on everything other than the Bicarbonate, which is short about 23ppm. Seems to me that would be pretty close.

Your 2007 water report can be found here: http://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/LVVWD_analyses.pdf

Actually, an RO system does not take everything out. We recently sampled a clients well befor eand after the filter. The simple answer is that and RO system will reduce most things by aobut 90% or more, but still leaves definite minerals behind...here are some examples
Constituent Before After
Total Alkalinity (as CaCO3) 316 36
Chloride 230 3.47
Sulfate 146 1.32
Hexavalent Chromium 0.021 ND
Calcium 134 1.05
Sodium 112 5.84
Magnesium 21.6 ND
Hardness (as CaCO3) 424 2.62
Total Dissolved Solids 884 ND
pH 7.14 5.32

One thing to note about R.O. systems, is that they should also have an deionization stage to remove all of the trace impurtities. Not sure if the one above has it, but I'll check with my client, though I believe it was maintianed by Culligan.

[Indytom]

Hey Mad Scientist,

This is a subject I have been interested in for a while now. This customer you are refering to, do you know if they had a softener ahead of the RO system. From what I have been able to understand, the high concentration Calcium precipitates out on the RO membrane and causes damage to the membrane, and this is what causes the minerals to show up on the downstream side of the RO system. Having a softener before the RO removes the calcium and is supposed to protect the membrane.

I am just curious it what I have read is true and the situation with the client might give some data one way or the other.

Tom

[Mad Scientist]

Here, where water quality generally sucks, a softner is usually used before the R.O. I've never actually bothered to ask, but assumed it was for the reason that you specified. I have to talk to them in a few days so I'll ask. But as I recall, they we not using a softner, since the water out fo the R.O. was used for drinking only.

[cul8rv8]

Not sure if the one above has it, but I'll check with my client, though I believe it was maintianed by Culligan.

Well, I don't actually have an RO in my house, I fill my bottles at the Culligan machine up the street. :)

And thanks for the link! I actually live in North Las Vegas, but it should still be the same. I get an annual water report in the mail, but it never covers everything I'm looking for, and I've just been lazy when it comes to calling the North Las Vegas Water Authority to get a full copy since I don't do anything with the water anyways. lol

[Mad Scientist]

If it is a Culligan maintained system, then you can count on good technology, and it will likely tell you all the processes that it uses to treat the water. Alternatively, there is probably a phone number on the machine. Very likely they'll tell you everything you want/need to know, because they'll be wanting to put a systyem in your house. They should also be able to answer your softner + RO system combo question. Here, Culigan will put in a system and maintain if for $10/month.