Uh, okay -- what?

[steveh]

Dortmunder or German-Style Oktoberfest? What the heck is that, have they combined Dortmunder and the Wies'n-Fest styles together now?

Category: 26 Dortmunder or German-Style Oktoberfest - 16 Entries

Gold: Rolling Thunder Dortmunder, Snake River Brewing Jackson, Jackson, WY

Silver: Westy Export, CB & Potts Restaurant & Brewery (Flatirons - Westminster), Broomfield, CO

Bronze: Penn Oktoberfest, Pennsylvania Brewing Co., Pittsburgh, PA

S.

[markaberrant]

Could it be that most modern German versions of Oktoberfest are similar in style to a Dortmunder and/or a slightly bigger Helles?

[steveh]

While it can be considered a slightly bigger Helles, that doesn't make it a Dortmunder. Dortmunder is a slightly bigger Pilsner, by design, and the Wies'n Fest style is more malty compared to the mellow Helles.

Then again, the world of German Light Lager is fast blurring together. I just wonder why the BA chose to lump these 2 together, they didn't lump Munchner Dunkel and Schwarzbier together... or did they?

S.

(nope, categories 33 and 35)

[BrewDog]

Dortmunder sits between Helles and Bohemian Pilsner, but is a little bigger in gravity but is less bitter than German Pilsner:

Helles:
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.045 – 1.051
IBUs: 16 – 22 FG: 1.008 – 1.012
SRM: 3 – 5 ABV: 4.7 – 5.4%

Dortmunder:
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.048 – 1.056
IBUs: 23 – 30 FG: 1.010 – 1.015
SRM: 4 – 6 ABV: 4.8 – 6.0%

Bohemian Pilsner:
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.044 – 1.056
IBUs: 35 – 45 FG: 1.013 – 1.017
SRM: 3.5 – 6 ABV: 4.2 – 5.4%

German Pilsner:
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.044 – 1.050
IBUs: 25 – 45 FG: 1.008 – 1.013
SRM: 2 – 5 ABV: 4.4 – 5.2%


I agree with Mark's comments re. newer Okto's.

[steveh]

Dortmunder sits between Helles and Bohemian Pilsner, but is a little bigger in gravity but is less bitter than German Pilsner

Right -- and the Wies'n Fest sits between Helles and Maibock; bigger in gravity than a Helles, less gravity than Maibock -- far less bittering than either Bohemian Pils, German Pils, or Dortmunder Export.

Think of it as an Oktoberfest recipe with less Munich malt.

Oktoberfest:
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.050 – 1.057
IBUs: 20 – 28 FG: 1.012 – 1.016
SRM: 7 – 14* ABV: 4.8 – 5.7%

Note the wide range in the SRM because of the rise in the newer Wies'n Fest, also note that the Fest color starts where the Dortmunder ends.

I can't agree that Dortmunder and the Wies'n Fest are similar, other than color. Dortmunder is more dry and bitter, Wies'n is more sweet and fuller bodied, probably because Dorts use all Pilsner malt while Wies'ns add a touch of Munich and even some Caramel for body and flavor.

Besides, Southern German brewers are better craftsman than Northern German brewers! ;)

S.

[steveh]

For added discussion, and the fun of it, here are some notes on Mai (Helles) Bock for comparison:

Maibock/Helles Bock:
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.064 – 1.072
IBUs: 23 – 35 FG: 1.011 – 1.018
SRM: 6 – 11 ABV: 6.3 – 7.4%

Comments: Can be thought of as either a pale version of a traditional bock, or a Munich helles brewed to bock strength.

S.

[MrNate]

Didn't I hear something recently about more Dortmunder being served at O'fest in the past few years? Or did I just make something up again?

Regardless, an odd grouping. Also makes me wonder what other kind of Oktoberfest there is. Other than "German," I mean.

[steveh]

Or did I just make something up again?

If you read/heard it, it was probably a mis-speak because Dortmunder has never been served at the Oktoberfest.

Also makes me wonder what other kind of Oktoberfest there is.

U.S. Oktoberfest. We're probably the only other country that makes the style, though I believe there are Dutch versions of Märzen, just as Vienna Amber is a Märzen.

S.

[MrNate]

I probably just made it up, then.

So is US Oktoberfest a different style entirely, or is it exactly like German Oktoberfest except that it happens to be brewed on this particular chunk of dirt?

[steveh]

So is US Oktoberfest a different style entirely, or is it exactly like German Oktoberfest

Not a different style, but also not exactly like German (Bavarian) Oktoberfest. A lot of the differences have to do with malt strains and brewing processes. Some US micros come close, some fall far short.

In my experience, the US versions tend to come out more "nutty" in character, whereas the Bavarian Oktos (of the Amber Märzen variety) are more bready and toasty.

Bell's and Victory come close in their renditions, but they still fall short in the German malt character found in Spaten, Paulaner, and Hacker-Pschorr.

S.

[beerking]

I think the GABF has relegated the "old" Oktoberfest style to a historical place, represented by "Marzen:"

31. German-Style Märzen
Märzens are characterized by a medium body and broad range of color. They can range from golden to reddish
orange. Sweet maltiness should dominate slightly over a clean, hop bitterness. Malt character should be lighttoasted
rather than strongly caramel (though a low level of light caramel character is acceptable). Bread or
biscuit-like malt character is acceptable in aroma and flavor. Hop aroma and flavor should be low but notable.
Ale-like fruity esters should not be perceived. Diacetyl and chill haze should not be perceived.
Original Gravity (ºPlato): 1.050-1.060 (12.5-15 ºPlato)
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato): 1.012-1.020 (3-5 ºPlato)
Alcohol by Weight (Volume): 4-4.7% (5.3-5.9%)
Bitterness (IBU): 18-25
Color SRM (EBC): 4-15 (8-30 EBC)

They are then using the above mentioned category to cover both the traditional Dort Export AND the "newer" Wiezenbier:

26. Dortmunder or German-Style Oktoberfest
A. Subcategory: Dortmunder/European-Style Export
Dortmunder has medium hop bitterness. Hop flavor and aroma are perceptible but low. Sweet malt flavor can
be low and should not be caramel like. The color of this style is straw to deep golden. The body will be medium
bodied. Fruity esters, chill haze, and diacetyl should not be perceived.
Original Gravity (ºPlato): 1.048-1.056 (12-14 ºPlato)
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato): 1.010-1.014 (2.5-3.5 ºPlato)
Alcohol by Weight (Volume): 4-4.8% (5-6%)
Bitterness (IBU): 23-29
Color SRM (EBC): 3-5 (6-10 EBC)
B. Subcategory: German-Style Oktoberfest/Wiesen (Meadow)
Today’s German-style Oktoberfest beers are characterized by a medium body and golden, light color. Sweet
maltiness is mild with an equalizing balance of clean hop bitterness. Hop aroma and flavor should be low but
notable. Ale-like fruity esters, diacetyl and chill haze should not be perceived. Similar or equal to Dortmunder/
European-Style Export.
Original Gravity (ºPlato): 1.048-1.056 (12-14 ºPlato)
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (ºPlato): 1.010-1.014 (2.5-3.5 ºPlato)
Alcohol by Weight (Volume): 4-4.8% (5-6%)
Bitterness (IBU): 23-29
Color SRM (EBC): 3-5 (6-10 EBC)

These are quotes from the GABF style Guidelines.

[steveh]

Similar or equal to Dortmunder/European-Style Export.


Actually, based on everything in the Märzen description -- because of that color caveat, the Wies'n still fits the profile -- who came up with the Dortmunder similarities? Similar or equal, how? In color? St. Pauli Girl and Hofbrau Fest next to each other in glasses -- only thing similar is color (somewhat) and vague malt profile. This ain't right King -- who do we complain at?

Oh man, and now they're even giving into the "caramel" aspect that evolved from drinkers and brewers not knowing better. The end of the true Märzen as we know it.

Also, where did you find the guidelines, they aren't at the link at BJCP.org -- are they still updating?

S.

[MrNate]

Oh man, and now they're even giving into the "caramel" aspect that evolved from drinkers and brewers not knowing better.

How do you mean? What should we know about "caramel" in the malt profile?

I agree that something's fishy here, but I think you guys are way ahead of me. That new description of Oktoberfest doesn't jive with what I think of as Oktoberfest - which is to say, Marzen. Am I to understand, then, that this new, lighter-colored style is what Germans now consider an Oktoberfest beer to be?

[steveh]

How do you mean? What should we know about "caramel" in the malt profile?

Caramel character has always been an "off" flavor in Oktoberfest Märzen. They shouldn't be that sweet. Unfortunately, many drinkers mistake the melanoidin maltiness for caramel (melanoidin starts sweet and finishes dry, caramel will continue on a sweet track all the way through) and thus brewers (pro and home-brewers alike) feel they need to add caramel malt to their grain bill to get the character profile they expect. What they really should be doing is using better Munich malts (even some good Belgian) and decoction mashing to get that sweet, toasted bread character a good Oktoberfest will have.

Here's the older version of the flavor profile from BJCP:
Flavor: Initial malty sweetness, but finish is moderately dry. Distinctive and complex maltiness often includes a toasted aspect. Hop bitterness is moderate, and noble hop flavor is low to none. Balance is toward malt, though the finish is not sweet. Noticeable caramel or roasted flavors are inappropriate. Clean lager character with no diacetyl or fruity esters.

S.

[beerking]

Actually, based on everything in the Märzen description -- because of that color caveat, the Wies'n still fits the profile -- who came up with the Dortmunder similarities? Similar or equal, how? In color? St. Pauli Girl and Hofbrau Fest next to each other in glasses -- only thing similar is color (somewhat) and vague malt profile. This ain't right King -- who do we complain at?

Oh man, and now they're even giving into the "caramel" aspect that evolved from drinkers and brewers not knowing better. The end of the true Märzen as we know it.

Also, where did you find the guidelines, they aren't at the link at BJCP.org -- are they still updating?

S.

Sorry, meant to post the link (to many free beers at New Belgium and O'Dell's yesterday?):
http://beertown.org/events/gabf/brewers/pdf/08_GABF_Style_Descriptions.pdf

These guidelines are GABF only, written, I believe, by Charlie P. himself. The BJCP guidelines are separate and different, written by the Guidelines Committee over the course of several months.

[steveh]

These guidelines are GABF only

Well, that makes me feel a little better... a little. Gonna have to give Charlie a call...

S.

[MrNate]

Aaaah... thanks for the explanation, Steve!

[steveh]

If you want to taste true caramel character in a beer, try Fuller's ESB. ESBs are supposed to taste like that, Oktoberfest Märzens shouldn't.

S.

[fretlessman71]

They got those in cans now, don't they? Will have to pick some up. :)

[darylM]

If you want to taste true caramel character in a beer, try Fuller's ESB. ESBs are supposed to taste like that, Oktoberfest Märzens shouldn't.

S.


*done in Homer voice* hmm, ESB

[steveh]

They got those in cans now, don't they?

Really? With a nitro-widget? Not sure I'd like it that way.

S.

[fretlessman71]

Dunno for sure if it's nitro or not... will investigate and report back.

[fretlessman71]

Saw Fuller's London Pride and London Porter in cans - non widget style. Dunno about the ESB.

Picked up the Fuller's - will report back.