Homebrewer Arrested

[hooky]

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_10516691?source=most_viewed

Not sure which side of this I fall on.

[iahebert]

I think if he was actually using the poppies with the intention of extracting opiates, then there's a problem. If it was another type of beer, just like any of us would make (not opium, more like a different twist on a style) then i'd say just bad coincidence.

I don't know how poppies can be made into opium, and I don't really care to know how, but if it's a natural breakdown over time, then its possible the opium laced beer was an accident. If not, then I think he's done something wrong here.

[MrNate]

I don't believe it. Call me cynical, but to paraphrase Verbal Kint...

If a cop decides you're making morphine and putting it in your beer, chances are he's going to "prove" himself right.

[dparsons]

Doesn't seem like they were processing any significant volumes of poppies or selling "special beer" on the streets.

[Mad Scientist]

I just saw this, sorry for a minor thread resurrection...

I'll say I'm sort of on the fene for this one, but I lean to the side of the homebrewer...

Here are a few things I note:

He studies chemistry. So what. I am a geoloist, and by eduaction, have an extensive chemistyr background.

What was the extraction prcoess used? Did he 'dry poppy' the ale? The would be an extractiion process. Maybe he soaked them in grain alcohol...

I wonder what the 'pressurized container' was? Sounds like a corny keg that hadn't been cleaned yet.

If the po-po went through my homebrewing stuff, they'd call it a lab equipment too. I'll bet he has a stir plate for yeast propogation....the horror!
What about the hazardous chemicals? Some of our sanitizers might be considered hazardous.

Opiium residue? Sounds like he needs better sanitation and cleaning habits...

What the heck is hazardous poppy waste? Apparently SO BAD they had to remove it using Level A (implied) haz-mat protection.

Apparently this is not the way to process poppies for 'the good stuff' (ref: Wikipedia), so if that is what he is after, why not just find some shady character on the street and buy it.

I can understand that someone would desire the flavor of poppies, but why on earth would you want to combine that with alcohol if there was any strength to it? That is asking for trouble.

I wonder if he did some sort of prcossing with it first?

Intent usually means alot, and I just cannot see the intent to extract opiates, after all, if he had intented somethinglike that (which you could never deny ignorance of) he would have been ALOT more careful about it.

[nelstrodomus]

What the heck is hazardous poppy waste? Apparently SO BAD they had to remove it using Level A (implied) haz-mat protection.



The Level A health and safety was probably the SOP for dealing with "drug factories" and what not, i.e., meth labs which do contain many serious hazards.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

I have opinions about this but in the past I have been Chastized for those opinions, so I remain silent.

[dparsons]

Otis, you know that in this fine era of correct political thinking that certain opinions should only be shared with trusted friends in secrecy. Stating them publicly would offend the sensibilities of people who are purer than you and I and would permanently stain their consciouses and darken their thoughts. We must remain vigilant to protect those who are better than we are.

[JayShaw91]

Yeah, so give us your opinion :)

[Mad Scientist]

Go ahead....we are not gonna tell....

[MrNate]

Otis, you know that in this fine era of correct political thinking that certain opinions should only be shared with trusted friends in secrecy. Stating them publicly would offend the sensibilities of people who are purer than you and I and would permanently stain their consciouses and darken their thoughts. We must remain vigilant to protect those who are better than we are.

Sssh, Comrade, you have already said too much! :D

[HarkJohnny]

I have opinions about this but in the past I have been Chastized for those opinions, so I remain silent.

... says the guy who's brewery he's named Toxic Waste Brewery... lolz :D

[Mad Scientist]

Which is also somewhat innaccurate...I've had his beer, not toxic at all....

[Mill Rat]

I have opinions about this but in the past I have been Chastized for those opinions, so I remain silent.While I agree with you, Otis, on the matter of free speech in a public place, I do come down on the side of the Realbeer hosts on this one. While we have been allowed to make use of someone's private server and occupy a significant amount of hard disk space, we are as much a virtual guest of our host here as we would be in a tavern. If the owner doesn't like something, we are obligated to either conform to their expectations or move on down the road.

Given that the opinions you expressed involved a controlled substance, if I were the host of this site I'd be concerned that overzealous enforcement agents could give me a world of grief over such a topic. Do I risk everything, including the living that I make and that my employees make, over such an issue? Do I want to spend days in court and wads of cash on lawyers over something as trivial as this? Probably not.

I will go to great lengths to defend your right to express such opinions and discuss such topics when you are on your property and when you are in our public spaces, because I also want that right of expression. Once we're on private property, whether physical or virtual, our hosts can be liable for actions that we take that they might appear to condone. I'm happy to play within the rules here at Realbeer, and I'll also be glad to discuss herbal brewing options when we're together at your place or mine.

[Mad Scientist]

Well put Mill Rat....it is so easy to forget that we are on a private website.

[nelstrodomus]

You guys seem to be taking trivial issues to another level...

[Mad Scientist]

Nah...too easy to split hairs....and fun too!

[Mill Rat]

You guys seem to be taking trivial issues to another level...Nah, that's what lawyers are paid to do.

[Mad Scientist]

Update: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_10807832

Railroaded, really....

I wonder if he will get all of his beer back...40 gallons, sheesh...

[hooky]

Evidence gets lost all the time.

[Indytom]

I wonder if he will get all of his beer back...40 gallons, sheesh...

Are you kidding?! That beer was turned into piss before the end of Sept. Not that I have a bad attitude or anything:mad:

Tom

[beerking]

Well, IMHO, he deserved what little he got, and was pretty stupid to begin with.
According to the article:
"He used a chemical process to extract opium from poppy plant pods, then converted the opium to morphine. He said he didn't know what he was doing was illegal."
Umm..is there REALLY anyone over 18 in this country that doesn't know making opium, AND converting that to morphine, is illegal?

[Indytom]

His guilt or innocence not withstanding, I have a problem with the article.

Opium is the raw latex that is produced by the opium poppy. Among some other organic molecules it contains, morphine, codeine, noscapine, papaverine, all of which are active opioid compounds. It also contains thebaine. Thebaine is not active as an opioid, but is significant as a starting compound for certain synthetic opioids.

The "chemical process" used was steeping the pods in the beer. He doesn't say whether they were added to the boil or to the secondary, etc, but in either case, the contents of the pods would have been extracted into the beer. The morphine was already there and nothing was done to "convert" it.

I am afraid that this is a case of a power hungry law enforcement establishment out of control. Did this guy know what he was doing? I'm sure he did. He was using a readily available herbal material as an adjunct to somehow change the character of his beer. Did he believe that there would be a narcotic effect? I'm sure he did. Did he believe that what he was doing was illegal? I doubt it. The first article said that it was common to see poppies growing in flower beds in the neighborhood. I honestly believe that what he did was to buy the poppy pods just to save himself the trouble of growing his own. Also, there are lots of varieties of poppies. Most of them produce these compounds in some very low concentration, nothing said that the pods he used came from opium poppies, and I doubt he did.

What this guy is guilty of is using poor judgment. Primarily because to someone on the outside, this looks more nefarious than it really is. No mention is made of concentration of morphine in the beer. My guess is that there was just enough to detect, because no mention is made of the other compounds that should have been extracted from the pods. This whole case is an example of an over-reaching of the law enforcement authorities, trying to enforceing the coming nanny-state.

(Getting off my soapbox)

Tom

[beerking]

You make some good points, and you obviously have much more knowledge about the botany of opiods, and the chemistry thereof than I.
Still, you make one statement that I must completely disagree with:
"Did he believe that what he was doing was illegal? I doubt it."
All due respect but that is total bunk. Unless he is either: a. a complete moron, or b. has been living under a rock for the last 50 years (and I would be money neither is true), he HAS to have known that incorporating opiods into anything he intended himself or others to consume is highly illegal.

I am not arguing the appropriateness, or correctness of the law, but we live in a society of laws and they must be followed. Not to do so has a name: anarchy. At the risk of sounding extremely cliche, "ignorance of the law is no excuse." (and as I stated earlier, it is HIGHLY unlikely he was ignorant.)

No offense or intent to inflame intended, just a friendly exchange of opinions, with no judgement made or inferred on yours.

[MrNate]

As part of his sentence, Renzelman will have to pay for soil testing near his backyard compost pile - where he dumped the spent grain from the poppy beer - to make sure the area wasn't contaminated.

Dear god what has become of this country? It's as if all the smart people have just given up and let the inmates take over the asylum.

[Mad Scientist]

While I think this was a complete waste of law enforcement time also, and 40 gallons of what was probably good beer, I must confess that I feel the guy was really, really naive, but at the same time, I can see how a person could think they were not doing anything wrong by steeping poppies in beer to get poppy flavor, as long as they were not opium poppies. I have to admit that I really was not aware fo any of the laws surrounding poppies in California, and presumably other states as well. Honestly, if I thought that adding poppies to my brew would result in great flavors, I'd do it too...but with the knowledge that not only is it illeagal, but that it would extract an undetermined amount of opiates (never a good thing with alcohol)..no thanks...

Oh, and Nate, do not underestimate the cost of soil sample analysis, they are expensive. Those law enforcement idiots are just trying to recoup their cost of over zealous idiocy.

[MrNate]

Oh, and Nate, do not underestimate the cost of soil sample analysis, they are expensive. Those law enforcement idiots are just trying to recoup their cost of over zealous idiocy.

Oh, I know... that was my point. That the judge allowed this is simply unbelievable to me.

[hooky]

he HAS to have known that incorporating opiods into anything he intended himself or others to consume is highly illegal.


Then poppy seed bagels should be banned, shouldn't they? There are other poppy seed beers on the market.

Is he playing coy? I don't know. I just think that the story is being blown out of proportion. Heroin posession makes me, and probably most lay people, think about needles, spoons and junkies. No offense intended to Kate Moss or Keith Richards.

[Indytom]

Hey Beerking,

No flame inferred. I love debating issues. The point that Hooky was making was what I was getting at. I love poppy seed bread, and poppy seed bagels are pretty good too. It is for that reason that I took the stand I did about this guys beer. And I continue to stand by my opinion on where the 40 gal probably went.

I have taken the time this afternoon to get myself a little better informed about poppies on the internet. I found this place (http://www.poppiesshop.com/) that sells all sort of poppy products. Many of the pods are stated to be from opium poppies. The amazing thing to me is that they have a warehouse in Sacramento CA. Maybe the cops should take a look at that. Anyway, with this new knowledge, I will concede that it is possible the guy knew what he was doing. But I still believe that the police may have over reacted. I went back and re-read the first article and it said that when the flowers are found growing in someone's garden, the authorities just rip them all out and tell the home owner that what they were doing was wrong. I can't help but to think that the same sort of reaction would have been more appropriate in this case as well.

The last think that really irks me about the case it the ominous language that was used to describe the situation. A "pressurized container" was probably a corny keg. "Hazardous chemicals" was more than likely cleaners and sanitizers. Heaven forbid if he had some caustic for cleaning his stainless. The "chemical processes" were probably fermentation and dry hopping or would that be dry podding?

This just looks to me like a case of an over enthusiastic media and police force just blew this whole thing way out of proportion.

I'm just glad the guy is going to come out ok if he keeps his nose clean. But I gotta tell you, I brew in front of my house, and I believe that I will spend more time looking over my shoulder after this......


Tom

[hooky]

But I gotta tell you, I brew in front of my house, and I believe that I will spend more time looking over my shoulder after this......


Tom

I told you the story about my first brew session after we moved into this house. You drive to the back of the house to get into our garage. I've got a about a half court basketball sized concrete pad as a result, and I brew back there in good weather. I'm in the middle of bringing my wort up to a boil and I was visited by the police. Suspicious activity that was thought to be meth related by an unnamed concerned person in the neighborhood.

I've already blazed that trail for you with the local police. :D

[beerking]

I told you the story about my first brew session after we moved into this house. You drive to the back of the house to get into our garage. I've got a about a half court basketball sized concrete pad as a result, and I brew back there in good weather. I'm in the middle of bringing my wort up to a boil and I was visited by the police. Suspicious activity that was thought to be meth related by an unnamed concerned person in the neighborhood.

I've already blazed that trail for you with the local police. :D

No offense, but that is pretty funny! I've had neighbors ask some pretty weird questions, back when I brewed outside, but never the police!

[Mad Scientist]

Interesting....before I moved from central texas, the local ploice were glad me and my neighbors had taken up homebrewing...no beers runs, but they still drove by to make sure that we were not back on the dirtbike at 3 am....

[HarkJohnny]

was brewing last week in my garage with a buddy and a cop pulled up and parked on the street in view of us. Kinda worried me for a sec but I didn't let it spoil my 10am drinking and brewing session. He got out a few times and went to his trunk, but ultimately I guess he wasn't there for me. Still, was a bit odd to see.

[chapesh]

i have to ask the question, how much narcotic substance could be derived from a " handful of pods"? do u get the narcotic from the pod more than the seed? a handful of seeds would seem more nefarious to me than the pod itself but i have no idea. seems like overkill but maybe he and the police involved have a better understanding of the legality involved. i know even trace amounts of controlled substances can result in all sort of property being taken. could this simply have been a case of strange brewing ingredients?

[beerking]

Got an e-mail from a friend of mine referencing an article about this event in the McPaper:

"USA Today reports an organic chemistry professor at UC Santa Cruz pleaded no contest to heroin possession after police found drug-laced home brew his garage. They quote him as saying he added poppy pods for flavor. Now he’s in drug diversion program. Another victory in the War on Drugs."

OK, the guy is a PROFESSOR OF ORGANIC CHEMISTRY. He knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and ALL the implications thereof. It is also likely that what he made was MUCH more potent than anything any of us would come up with.

QED!

[Mad Scientist]

I checked the UC Santa Cruz website, he is lsted as a gradute student, which mean that he likely teach labs or intro classes as part of his graduate program, which generally means he is not a professor. If that qualifies him as a professor, then I am a former college professor.

I sent him an email, let's see if he repsonds.

[beerking]

Of course not. In our wonderful advanced education system, such an event is a resume builder. This will serve as an ASSET to his career! The only way he could do better for his career is if he was caught serving the beer to his students in class.

[Indytom]

Mad Scientist,

+1 on the former college professor. At two different schools no less. I never knew I had had such a great career.

I still maintain that as much as I like poppy seed bread and bagels, that eventually an idea something like this would have occured to me. Obviously I won't act on it now.

Tom