yeast cake behavior?

[belsonc]

Hey all -

So, I bottled my APA and put a barleywine onto the yeast cake. The APA was somewhere around 1.065 or so (I forget, exactly), and the barleywine is 1.111. Before it started fermenting, I was able to see a layer of new yeast - so I know there was oxygen in there, I know there was some reproduction, all the proper pre-fermentation stuff.


The thing is, I've never done a yeast cake beer in a glass carboy before - so I don't know what it's supposed to look like. With mine, all the yeast is just sitting there on the bottom. And since it's an ale yeast, I think of it as top-fermenting - so I have all my krausen, obviously, but I feel like there should be yeast... other than on the bottom, you know? Basically, what I was expecting is something more like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEvM0yAJg7o

Now I know every beer is different - don't get me wrong. I just hope I didn't do anything wrong with this - the last thing I want is a barleywine that finishes around 1.040 or so instead of the 1.02x where it's supposed to be. :) There were a few inches of foam after I poured the wort into the carboy, plus the shaking I did, plus the fact I... well, I didn't try to hold the carboy perfectly still as I was bringing it downstairs. So the aeration from the strainer, plus the aeration from the shaking, plus the aeration from the transport - I thought I'd be ok.

Right now, though, the highest the krausen has ever gotten was a couple of inches above the level of the beer. Could it still be ok even though it's not bubbling out through the blowoff like I was expecting it to? I'm going to leave it in primary for 3-4 weeks before I even take a gravity reading - and even at that, I'm going to rack it to secondary for a month or two before I bottle it.

Anything I can do about it now? Is the yeast cake supposed to be just sitting on the bottom like that? Should I keep stirring it up with my racking cane (gently, so as to not introduce oxygen at this stage in the game) like the owner of the LHBS suggested? Or should I just write it off and go along for the ride? I have another packet or two of yeast I can pitch if needs be - Nottingham and something else - but I'd rather pick the brains of those who know more than me before I do anything like that.

Thanks in advance - and now, if you'll excuse me, there's another homebrew in the fridge with my name on it. :)

-CB

[beerking]

From your video, looks good to me. You got lots of krausen, and some blow off.
The term "top fermenting" is a little misleading. The yeast does not float on the top and do its thing, clumps just kind of work their way to the top while working, and then settle back down some more.

[hooky]

I'd try to swirl the wort in the carboy to get more of it back into suspension.

When I rack onto a cake, I get a gallon or so in the fermentor and swirl it. Not sure what yeast you used, but some of the higher floculating yeast will give you a very firm, solid cake.

The other thing that comes to mind, is could that layer on the bottom actually be trub from the kettle?

[belsonc]

From your video, looks good to me. You got lots of krausen, and some blow off.
The term "top fermenting" is a little misleading. The yeast does not float on the top and do its thing, clumps just kind of work their way to the top while working, and then settle back down some more.


No, no, that's not my video - that's the video of what I was expecting it to be. :-) I have the blowoff tube and all that set up - but the krausen hasn't gotten anywhere close to the neck yet... it hasn't even hit the curve in the glass to go towards the neck.


And hooky, this is a 1056 cake - sorry, should've mentioned that in the original post. I was thinking it could be a little trub, but doubtful - all this goes through a strainer, so the amount of hops and assorted other detritus that would get through the mesh would be minimal. But if the idea of stirring it up occasionally sounds good to you guys, I have no problem with that - I have my racking cane sitting in sanitizing solution as we speak, so I can definitely do that once/twice a day for a few days... :)

[hooky]

I wouldn't keep sticking your racking cane in it to stir it. Just treat it like a big glass of wine and swirl it. Get it moving really well and then see what happens the next day. As long as it's fermenting, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Go have another HB.

[JayShaw91]

I just brewed with 1056 and that yeast cake at the bottom seemed pretty solid to me. I think it would have been best to get it off the bottom right away, but now that everything is all sealed up, that option is out.

I'm for the swirl idea, too.

[markaberrant]

How long ago did you brew the barleywine? What temp are you fermenting at?

[belsonc]

Saturday night and low 70s - could that have anything to do with it?

[Mill Rat]

I'd rather have a more mild fermentation rather than one that just about detonates. When you have a wild fermentation, you can pretty much kiss off any prayer of regulating the fermentation temperature. As long as it is fermenting, relax. Don't try fixing it if it ain't broke.

[belsonc]

Fair enough - I think the fact this is the first yeast cake that I didn't have to clean up after threw me off a little bit.


But, now I face an even bigger problem.



I have no cold homebrew.



Hmm. Think I'm going to leave my barleywine to ferment and go take care of that other problem. ;)

Thanks again!

[belsonc]

Ok, I just took a sample to see how it's coming along - 1.039, after 2 weeks in the fermenter. I moved it upstairs into my apartment to take advantage of slightly warmer temperatures - ambient in my apartment is in the (very) high 60s.

I don't foresee myself racking this to secondary for about 2 weeks (going to Denver for GABF, and that will cover this coming weekend), so I have no problem letting it sit in primary.

I think I just need to have someone tell me RDW and that if I keep giving it a swirl here and there until I leave, that when I get back, and if I swirl it when I get back, it could still get a little lower. So, someone, tell me I'm right?


Please? ;)

[markaberrant]

It's only been 2 weeks, and that is a massive beer. But you don't need to constantly swirl, in fact I'm not sure it's even necessary.

[belsonc]

Thanks Mark - I _thought_ I remembered reading that barleywines will go slow, but they WILL go - I just couldn't remember where, so I didn't know if I had imagined it or not. :)

I have to say, though - this is the first time I haven't been upset when I tasted the hydrometer sample and thought it was terrible. It tasted like...


...wait for it...





...a really young barleywine. Go figure. :D

[hooky]

8 days ago, I racked a 1.082 beer onto 1056 cake. I checked it today and it's down to 1.021. I cooled it to 72, racked it and then kept it around 63F and it never even got close to needing the blowoff. I think you're doing a solid by leaving it alone and coming back in two weeks.

Go have fun at GABF.

[belsonc]

Well, first off, GABF ROCKED. Great time. :-)

Secondly, just checked the barleywine again.


And it's still at 1039.

Thoughts?

[Fouled Anchor]

What is a yeast cake?

[belsonc]

Long answer short, pitching onto a yeast cake is when you pitch onto the yeast you just used for one fermentation. Generally, you can use yeast for more than one beer - as long as you increase it as you go. The "original" beer should be the lightest colored/weakest/least hoppy/etc. From there, you can make them stronger, darker, more hoppy - otherwise, you might end up with results you don't want. Not to mention that you need more yeast to do a stronger beer properly - part of the reason why you should (generally/always, take your pick :) ) make a starter.


/me stands down to let someone else cover aspects of a yeast cake he missed...

-CB

[Fouled Anchor]

Ok, I'm starting to get it. Thanks.