dogfish head and labels

[studentofbeer]

what's the deal with dogfish head blacking out certain things on their labels? Are the labels done like that or are they mistakes that are getting blocked out? I just picked up a bottle of pangea and it seems like words like ale and beer are being removed. I seem to remember maybe last years world wide stout having a bunch of stuff blacked out. Is there some rule that the weird ingredients they use dont qualify these as ales or beers?

[threecb]

It could very well be. I never thought about that, though I've noticed the blacking out.

I did read that there was a delay with Troegs releasing their Mad Elf because they were
awaiting government approval on the label -- something to do with the cherries...

[brewmonkey]

The ATF is VERY VERY VERY Picky about labels and how they are managed. Once you have your label design you must submit it to the ATF for approval, and they will be picky as hell. Once they approve the label you must adhere to THAT design exactly. They can and will pull your products if so much as a color is wrong.

[batkins]

If your are talking of the World Wide Stout, with the words "Vim & Vigor" blacked out, here is how I heard the story.....
Whomever is in cotrol of liquor or labels or whatever made them block it out (after the first year, I believe) so there would be no implied "health" benefits. This may be wrong, but it's the way I heard it.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by batkins
If your are talking of the World Wide Stout, with the words "Vim & Vigor" blacked out, here is how I heard the story.....
Whomever is in cotrol of liquor or labels or whatever made them block it out (after the first year, I believe) so there would be no implied "health" benefits. This may be wrong, but it's the way I heard it.

Once a label is approved it may not be altered in any fashion. They must resubmit the label to the ATF for approval.

[hopjack13]

well it's easier to peel the lable off a dfh bottle then it is a stone bottle he he he a little off the subject i know but i couldn't resist :rolleyes:

[newportstorm]

In many states, brews with elevated alcohol content (like most DFH beers) can't be classified as "beer" or "ale". So, instead of running new batches of labels ($$$), they took a black marker and tweaked the labels. I beleive Texas is one of those states with strange laws - anything over 4% abv is classified as "malt liquor". That's my story.

Cheers!

[studentofbeer]

ahha! that makes some sense. i remember the first time picking up a spaten oktoberfest and seeing it said malt liquor on it and going, wtf, this better not be like german king cobra :p

what stupid laws some of our states have.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by newportstorm
In many states, brews with elevated alcohol content (like most DFH beers) can't be classified as "beer" or "ale". So, instead of running new batches of labels ($$$), they took a black marker and tweaked the labels. I beleive Texas is one of those states with strange laws - anything over 4% abv is classified as "malt liquor". That's my story.

Cheers!

Once the ATF has approved a label it CANNOT be altered. If you distribute to a state with strange laws then you must also have a label to meet that states requirement and it too must meet ATF approval standards.

If it is a money issue it is cheaper to get a run of the labels then it is to have someone do it with a marker.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Once the ATF has approved a label it CANNOT be altered. If you distribute to a state with strange laws then you must also have a label to meet that states requirement and it too must meet ATF approval standards.

If it is a money issue it is cheaper to get a run of the labels then it is to have someone do it with a marker.

Well, apparently the ATF either approved these labels (black marks and all) or isn't casing local liquor stores, because the shelves are lined with these "altered labels".

And cheaper? If the brewery employees (or even volunteers) don't mind spending some time with a black marker and a few DFH pints, what could be cheaper than free? ;)

I'm certain DFH would kindly reply to anyone that emailed them regarding this topic.

Cheers!

[threecb]

I've seen the labels in question, and I'm in the printing industry,
so I think what they actually do is this...

They probably have the label approved with the exception of the
wording in question and probably resubmit with these words blacked out.
Then they go back to press with an additional printing plate that just
prints the black bar over the questionable type.

It's cheaper (and quicker) for them to print one black ink over one area of type
then to go back and have the artwork redone and the labels completely reprinted.

I don't think it's done with a black marker...

[Payson]

I agree Threecb.....it sounds as if the labels with the black marks are in fact the "approved" labels. Scenario: 1st label was not approved, DFH resubmits w/ blacked out "objectionable" wording. ATF approves label w/ blacked out wording. Customers now have an interesting label that has mysterious wording blacked out. This creates a buzz and inevitably provides free advertising, IE this thread.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Well, apparently the ATF either approved these labels (black marks and all) or isn't casing local liquor stores, because the shelves are lined with these "altered labels".

And cheaper? If the brewery employees (or even volunteers) don't mind spending some time with a black marker and a few DFH pints, what could be cheaper than free? ;)

I'm certain DFH would kindly reply to anyone that emailed them regarding this topic.

Cheers!

As a brewery employee I can tell you labor is not cheap by any means and most employees already recieve a beer ration as part of their employment. The amount of people required and the time it would take to black out labels by hand would not make this a doable task, you would be talking about tens of thousends of labels that would have to be de-spooled, marked and the re-spooled to go onto the labeler. Not going to happen.

ATF agents dont generally caseliquor stores looking for violations, but when they do find them there is hell to pay.

[batkins]

This is a quote from one of many threads on the subject on beeradvocate.com

"Let's clear this up right now, once and for all, as this has been going on for some time now in different threads! Sam had the labels printed before they'd received label approval from the Bureau of alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The BATF decided that "Vim and Vigor" could not be used on the label. They were supposed to black it out on every label! However, especially on last year's run, quite a few got by. Still, some of last year's bottles were blacked out! As far as I've seen, all of this years were blacked out. But as it stands, since there's no year on the label, unless you know when it was originally bought there's no way of knowing if it was the first year's, last year's, this year's.... however, they do taste different!!!"

Cheers,
Bill

[Beaver]

This reminds me of the flap over Flying Dog's Road Dog label:
http://www.flyingdogales.com/02_litter_brews/litter_roaddog.html

It says "Good Beer - No Shit" on it. That was censored for a while, but is now allowed. I don't know all the details on it. I think I remember seeing some cross-outs for their labels a while back.

More info:

http://www.mediainstitute.org/ONLINE/FAM2002/Comspeech_J.html

[fretlessman71]

Basically, the "Good Beer - No Shit" label was the first one to come out. After a period of time, the government (or whoever) censored the label. Flying dog went to bat for the artist, who had included the words on the original artwork. There was a lengthy court battle which Flying Dog finally won. During the battle, the artist redid his artwork so the beer could be sold with his art on it, and the line was changed to "Good Beer - No Censorship".

Personally, I HATE swearing.... it sounds like shit and doesn't do one fucking bit of good....:eek:

[brewmonkey]

I guess the bigger point here is who gives a crap about the label, I want whats inside.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
As a brewery employee I can tell you labor is not cheap by any means and most employees already recieve a beer ration as part of their employment. The amount of people required and the time it would take to black out labels by hand would not make this a doable task, you would be talking about tens of thousends of labels that would have to be de-spooled, marked and the re-spooled to go onto the labeler. Not going to happen.

ATF agents dont generally caseliquor stores looking for violations, but when they do find them there is hell to pay.

I'll stand by what 'batkins' posted as I've read the same things. Also, here's an excerpt from one of DFH's employees as posted on RateBeer:

"2 WWS releases this year with the new label (no more Vim and Vigor-very illegal per BATF), 18.8 & 21%. I know the left-over 21s went to Stone in California, and some others drifted out elsewhere. I'll check with distro at work and post which other distributers got UK WWS.

More on the label:

NO vimvigor from 2003 on, and the new label has a year notch.

2002 (23%) has crossed out vimvigor

2001 (18%) vimvigor not crossed out

2000 (18%) vimvigor crossed out"

Seems to indicate this was manually done. Otherwise, the whole run of labels would have been done - and stray bottles would not have gotten through. The same employee stated that they used the same labels for the first three WWS vintages as they don't want to lock themselves into a ABV as it can vary. I would assume they manually do this to the Pangea & Festina Lente as well. I have several bottles of each and the black marks are not consistent in appearance. I'll say it again: This is just my observation - I recommned you email DFH directly and get it straight from the horse's mouth.

Cheers!

[brewmonkey]

Actually I give a crap about how the labels are done, I am just pointing out the labeling issues as the ATF applies. I have dealt with this on more then one occassion during our label approval process.

[chazwicke]

I know the guy who is in charge of label approval for the ATF. He is a good beer drinker, breweriana collector and a great guy. He used to live here and work in the Washington DC area. Now he is based in Boston. He is by no means a hardass when it comes to beer. I do know he has certain guidelines that he has to adhere to. I think of all the progress that has been made in labeling as a result of the micro revolution. It is emense. I remember when Virginia would not allow the word "liquor" on beer labels. we had malt "Lagers" rather than malt liquors. And there used to be a ban on posting alcohol percentages on all labels. We have come a long way. I am a label collector and i love most of the newer beer labels but none are as cool as the prepro or early post pro labels. (If anyone has has any vintage Virginia or Washington DC beer labels they wanna sell...)

[brewmonkey]

Getting labels approved has become much easier now that associations like the Institute for Brewing Studies is around. All IBS members get help and wlak over label service through them. That is how we did our last 2 labels, turn around on them was less then 30 days from submit to approval. Before that it was send it in and wait, wait, wait.

[hopjack13]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I am a label collector and i love most of the newer beer labels

ever have any luck with stone lables?

[toneyc]

The Rogue labels are silk screened on, too, aren't they?

:)
Toney.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by toneyc
The Rogue labels are silk screened on, too, aren't they?

:)
Toney.

They used to be silk screened, but they stopped I believe about 2 years ago on most of the beers.

I have a rare Rouge Silk Screened bottle (still with beer) from the Craft Brewers Conference in Portland back in 2001. It was named Charlie 1981 after Charlie Papazian. Silk Screened bottle is a print of him. I will get a picture of it and post it here sometime tonight or tomorrow.

[fretlessman71]

So if they're not silk screened, what are they? Painted on? I'm curious as to their technique....

[brewmonkey]

They are using regular labels now.

[fretlessman71]

Rogue, right? I've seen brand new bottles with paint on them 'round here... could it just be new old stock?

[batkins]

I'm in Portland. Rogue labels are silkscreened. The Younger's Bitter and Mocha Porter are available with paper labels, in stores here. All the others, 12 or 22 oz. , are silkscreened.
The bottles for the rum are etched.

[fretlessman71]

Am I the only one who doesn't know about Rogue Rum? Sounds really good....

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Rogue, right? I've seen brand new bottles with paint on them 'round here... could it just be new old stock?

Crap, then I am getting ripped off. My last 6 pack of dead guy ale was paper labels.

Edit-

The Rouge website has some beers listed as coming in silkscreened bottles while other beers make no mention of it.

[fretlessman71]

Maybe the 6ers come in paper labels, whereas the bombers and some of the bigger beers are still silkscreened....

[batkins]

I think your right. Dead Guy does come with a paper label.
None of the 22oz. bottles have paper. None of the XS beers have paper.
Never had really thought about it. The 3 with paper are fairly common in local stores. Maybe it's just cheaper for them to do the higher quantity with paper labels.

It's all the same beer!!
Drink up!
Cheers,
Bill

[studentofbeer]

im definitely seeing paint (paint, paint store, maybe???) on rogue beers still. maybe cause they are the bombers? havent taken a look at a six pack in a while.

edit: meant to post this like 3 hours before but got distracted with taking a practice lsat and didnt hit the button till now and my response is now repetitive

[GunNut76]

My local paint store has 8 varieties of Rogue, 4 - 22 oz and 4 - 12 oz, and they are all silk screened. I've never seen one with a paper label.

[brewmonkey]

Got the word from Rogue Ales through email. 12oz bottles are paper and bombers are silk screened.




You just got hold of the 12oz bottles, they have paper labels, all of our 22oz bottles are screen printed.
Rockin Rogue!
Amy Cline
Utility Infielder
Rogue Ales

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Maybe the 6ers come in paper labels, whereas the bombers and some of the bigger beers are still silkscreened....

So, what do I win? :D

[threecb]

I saw a thread on BA.com that talked about the DFH labels and the black outs, straight from Sam's mouth (or keyboard, if you will).

NewportStorm's right!

The gov wanted them to redo the labels to say "Flavored Malt Beverage" and he told them he'd rather black out the words by hand!

Crazy, but true...

and does anyone have a bottle of Rogue with a paper label to give fret for winning!?!?;)

[batkins]

All I know is this, at the brew pub nearly everything is silkscreened.
The only things I have ever gotten with paper labels were cases of Mocha Porter. I've seen the Porter, the Shakespeare Stout(oops, forgot that one earlier), Younger's Special Bitter and Dead Guy in grocery stores with paper but only the 12 ounce. Other than that, everything I have ever seen is silkscreened. There is nothing with a paper label on their shelves. I'm in there at least once a week, including last Wednesday.
The I2PA, Old Crusty's and the Imperial Stout all come in silkscreened 12oz. bottles.

[brewmonkey]

Well I would think that the email from Rogue wouls settle this.

[batkins]

Yeah, if that's what they say.....it's just not what is seen here.
I went to John's Marketplace today, and the only other Rogue I saw with a paper label was the 22oz. Kell's. Everything other than those was silkscreened. That's what is on the shelves.

edit: Maybe they weren't speaking of the "xs" beers. When you take away the 22oz. bottles and the "xs" beers, you are left with the 3 "paper labeled beers" mentioned before.
All in all, it makes no difference. I was only telling you what I see daily.

[brewmonkey]

As I am only telling what I have seen in our liquor stores. The only thing that matters is whats inside.

[hopjack13]

but there is nothing inside my bottle?? :D