A Question

[Richard English]

I have been trying to find out the ingredients of the various chemical fizz beers as I need to use the information in a speech. Unfortortunately this is very hard to establish since brewers are not obliged to show them - even in the UK where all other foodstuffs have to have all their ingredients shown.

Good brewers do show their ingredients and A-B make great play of the fact that they use only water, malt, hops yeast and rice in their normal brew.

I have two questions:

1. If the only "unatural" ingredient in normal Budweiser is rice, why does it taste so foul?

2. Can anyone tell me where I can find out the information I need about ingredients of a range of chemical fizz beers?

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Richard English
I have been trying to find out the ingredients of the various chemical fizz beers as I need to use the information in a speech. Unfortortunately this is very hard to establish since brewers are not obliged to show them - even in the UK where all other foodstuffs have to have all their ingredients shown.

Good brewers do show their ingredients and A-B make great play of the fact that they use only water, malt, hops yeast and rice in their normal brew.

I have two questions:

1. If the only "unatural" ingredient in normal Budweiser is rice, why does it taste so foul?

2. Can anyone tell me where I can find out the information I need about ingredients of a range of chemical fizz beers?


As sad as it is, I think you're going to find that A-B beers taste the way that they do because they are brewed to taste that way - many people ACTUALLY like it. The grist for Budweiser must be 50% or more rice(the rest is probably six row malt that has the diastatic strength to convert the rice) since it adds no real flavor component and ferments nearly completely away. Then the beer is highly filtered which removes taste too. I would absolutely be willing to bet that the only things in Budweiser is water, malt, hops, yeast, and rice - but proportion and how it's brewed make all the difference in the world.

[brewmonkey]

They may also be adding an enzyme (Amylo-Glucosidase) that can be added to the mash that will help reduce 1-6 sugars so that the wort is as fermentable as it can get.

[steveh]

Richard - I've mentioned before that I used to have a list, about three letter pages long, of ingredients that were allowable in beer by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. I've not been able to find this list (haven't really seen it in about 10 years), and can find nothing on the web for FDA standards on beer.

The ingredients listed were, indeed, chemicals - for shelf preservation, color, head retention and so forth - hangover recipes no doubt.

The real question at this point would be, what sort of standards do the U.K. government put toward beer content? Is it possible that A-B isn't allowed to use some of the same artificial ingredients as they can over here?

Fast Eddy may be correct, the fact that A-B's recipe has been so "diluted" may be the reason it tastes so awful.

S.

[Richard English]

Quote: "...The real question at this point would be, what sort of standards do the U.K. government put toward beer content..."

With the exception of alcoholic drinks, all foodstuffs sold in the UK must contain a complete list of ingredients. The powerful brewers' and winemakers' lobbies have successfully managed to avoid this and so we have no way of telling what our beers contain. Good brewers like Youngs and Fullers do declare their ingredients, of course, since they have nothing to hide.

And no, there are no standards set here although some adulterants are obviously banned. This means that chemical rubbish can be sold here without let or hindrance and many people buy and drink the muck.

Only one country of the British Isles has regulations about beer and that is the Isle of Man. No beers brewed there can contain anything except malt, hops, yeast and water.

Incidentally I also found on the Budweiser site the following statement, "...Budweiser is aged, or lagered, with beechwood chips for approximately 3 weeks, a longer period than used by many brewers..."

Does anyone know of any brewer that lagers its beer for less than 3 weeks? I happen to know that Budvar lager their normal Budweiser (Czechvar in the USA) for 100 days and their latest "Bud Special" for 400 days - which is why none of the brew has yet come on sale as it wasn't brewed until the end of last year and won't be ready until next spring.

[brewmonkey]

The reason you won't find much information from the FDA on beer is that they have no real oversight on it, It is regulated by the BATF. All labels MUST be approved by the BATF before they can be affixed to a product, and they do not require you to list ingredients.

[steveh]

I knew that the BATF was the tax regulator of quantity produced and alcohol percentages (as well as "proper" labeling), but I thought the FDA was still responsible for setting the standards of what ingredient can actually go into a product produced in the U.S. Anyone know for sure?

And Charles, what can you say about a brewer that ages a "lager" for only three weeks? The "many brewers" in their quote may refer to Miller, Coors and the conglomo that makes Pabst, Schlitz, and Old Style these days.

S.

[steveh]

http://www.urbanlegends.com/faq2k/food_334.html
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_356b.html

S.

[brewmonkey]

The only FDA requirements that I have run across in the brewery were those that prohibit the addition of certain ingredients that are banned for human consumption in the US (Wormwood being one). There is a new regulation that requires certain manufacturers to register with the FDA in relation to bio-terrorism and SOME brewers will fall under this new regulation.

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~furls/ovffreg.html

I am sure there is a ton of grey area on this, and none of the alphabet agencies really know who has what control over whom. I have never seen an FDA agent come into the brewery (saw them in the restaurant though) but I have been inspected at least twice a year by the ATF and the Treasury Dept.

[chazwicke]

Interesting, Very interesting. Thanks Steveh.

[GunNut76]

Well here is my .02: I think that finding anything other than what the brewery is willing to release is going to be very, very difficult. Think about it...I make millions of dollars per year on a product that almost everyone of age drinks...now, am I going to give out the whole recipe so every TD&H brewer can replicate it? (even tho I don't know why you would want to) I don't think so. I'd rather keep those millions. I say let them add their chemicals and I'll just keep on enjoying the beer I make...I KNOW what goes in it and I'm not going to change anything because I can't get a decent head.

Mr. English- You can just tell everyone in your speech that you just do not have enough time to list all the crap in A-B, and you have a hard time pronouncing some of the stuff.;)

[danno]

interesting conversation, but I have a question for the homebrewer users of Star San (like myself). It's no rinse, right? So are you putting on your labels "may contain traces of Dodecylbenzenesulfonic and Phosphoric Acids" ???

[Richard English]

Quote "..., am I going to give out the whole recipe so every TD&H brewer can replicate it?..."

That's an interesting point but I suspect that it is akin to the kinds of excuses that the chemical-fizz brewers give out rtahre than being a reason.

In Bavaria it has been illegal for hundreds of years for beer to contain anything other than malt, hops, water and yeast. So, except in the improbable happenstance that someone will want to brew a beer without one or more of these constituents, everyone knows exactly what the ingredients of every Bavarian beer are. But ingredients aren't recipes. Bavarian beers vary a great deal one from another - as do those British and US beers that, similarly, use on those four components.

In the UK, as I have said, all foodstuffs except alcoholic drinks must contain details of all their constituents (which must be listed in order of proportion, the largest first) - but they are all different, one from another. And, let's face it, why would you want to make an exact duplicate of someone else's product? Unless you were able to sell it far more cheaply, or conveniently, or in some other way offer a significant benefit over the original, then thay would anyone choose it over the original? The only way that might work is if you were to pass it off as the genuine article - and that is illegal in both the UK and the USA.

There is little doubt in my mind that the real reason why the chemical-fizz brewers don't want to list their ingredients is that we would then know just what muck their customers are pouring into their stomachs!

[sallad]

all foodstuffs except alcoholic drinks must contain details of all their constituents (which must be listed in order of proportion, the largest first)

there are similar rules in the US. not sure on the specifics, but every last package of cookies, every jar of apple sauce, and so on has ingredients listed in order of proportion. but never in an alcoholic beverage.

so look at a typical homebrew recipe: 5 gallons of water, 9 lbs of grain, 2 oz of hops, and a few grams of yeast. on the label, the ingredients would read, "water, malted barley, hops, yeast." doesn't give much away. that is not hardley a recipe, and budweiser says as much on the label anyway.

its scarey to think what else might be in there....

[brewmonkey]

Actually I was just reading that the Reinheitsgebot only applies to beer brewed and SERVED in Germany. After Germany Joined the European Union, The European Court of Justice in 1987 ruled that their laws created trade barriers within the EU and thus they could only apply the Reinheitsgebot to beer brewed and served in Germany and not to beers brewed for export.

I also have read in the past that with the founding of breweries outside of Germany they were able to produce beers outside the scope of the reinheitsgebot and therefore were able to use adjuncts or additives in the process.

They are also using some agents in the process such as PVPP (up to 50g/hl) and Silica Gel that are allowed under the Purity Laws.

[b3s]

interesting read on the reinheitsgebot. Takes an interesting stance that the reinheitsgebot was not a consumer protection act...which is true if you consider the number of bad beers brewed according to it.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~patto1ro/reinheit.htm

[Brownbeard]

There is little doubt in my mind that the real reason why the chemical-fizz brewers don't want to list their ingredients is that we would then know just what muck their customers are pouring into their stomachs!

I think you give most people too much credit. I would wager that the person who actually pays attention to the ingredients of whatever product they are consuming, is in the vast minority. These people obviously aren't taking the time to choose good beer, why would they take the time to read the label. I would guess the reason the ingredients are not there, is because they don't have to be. I do not care for Budsweiser, but I do believe that the brewers use quality ingredients. If they were using preservatives in the beer, why would they make such a big deal about the "Born on Date"? I have a friend who uses nothing but malt, hops, yeast, and water to make his homebrew, and has not made a decent tasting beer yet.

[Richard English]

Quote "...interesting read on the reinheitsgebot..."

Much of what this author says is true although I do not agree that the Reiheitsgebot has little to do with consumer protection. It is maybe less relevant now, but it was very much a consumer protection law when it was enacted. Beers in those days had many adulterants, including lead. Lead salts were added to impart a smoothness and sweetness to beer. Unfortunately lead is also a cumulative poison.

Modern-day purity laws have, to large extent, made the Reihetsgebot unnecessary - but I still believe that brewers should be obluged to show their ingredients, just as do the producers of all other foodstuffs. Whether consumers take the trouble to check them is their own business and I agree, most won't. However, the choice is theirs, not the brewers', and that's as it should be.

[vbonato]

I have heard of some of the "ingredients" or "adjuncts" as we might call it that are in the Mexican beers like Corona. These ingredients are what gives it the that distict yellow hue that we are all familiar with.
On a more serious side, some ( actually all) of the mass produced beers use mass produced ingredients. Who even knows how these are processed since the suppliers are from around the world. Many if not all beers are made from processed pellets (rabbit food) syrups and extracts that would seem foriegn to the home brewer. Is malt really malt? Is hop pellets really hops. IS corn the same as corn flakes? One thing they have learned is that carbs last a long time on the shelf so if you can efficiently store it by altering it's shape, you can capitalize on the market by buying when it's cheap and storing it in a silo

[brewmonkey]

vbonato,

What you hear and what are facts are two different things. You need to come up with some sources for your info. I buy my malt from the same maltster that AB does and it is not "mass" produced as you state.

Hop pellets are real hops run through a nitrogen cooled die plate to compress them. They are not made of anything other then hops.

If you are going to post what you belive to be facts, you better be be able to back them up with some sources and not just what you believe.

[vbonato]

Facts ?

Largest brewer in the world, with 14 breweries total, 12 of which are located in the U.S.
One of the largest theme park operators in the world.
In addition to beer and theme parks, the company also has interests in malt production, rice milling, real estate development, turf farming, metalized paper label printing, and transport services. I don't need to think they mass produce- they just do. They mass process everything including the people.
I don't mean to argue but since I was attacked, do you think there are a few Scottsman are in thier sheds malting for Anheuser Busch?. NOT!
How can you even think the malt's not mass produced? If it smells like a beer and tastes like a beer and looks like a beer it's more than likley a beer.
And the hops...It's hops under pressure. Would you send a dozen of compressed roses to your wife ? Here honey just boil these for 5 min and they will smell like roses. Some things don't need to be stated as facts. I know what I see and I need no further explaination. I use those compressed hops myself when nothing else is available. Any processing has certain effects on the crude raw product. If your Sunday diner spinich was in the form of reconstitued pellets would you tell me it's the same as fresh (or even frozen or canned)? How about instant coffee or instant ice tea? Same as the other stuff? Not mass produced or processed? I ask myself a lot of questions before I make decisions.
I hope I didn't get on your bad side. That is not my intention. By the way, I rarely use malt. I'm a whole grain kind of guy. I don't like the idea of skipping all those steps in order to make beer. That's mass production.

[Brownbeard]

I think the issue with AB and others of their ilk is that they load their brews up with corn and rice. These are not ideal beer products, but they are indeed natural. Beer does not need preservatives or chemicals to keep it. In fact, the big brewers turn their beers around so fast, the issue of preservation is not an issue. I have a friend who is a sales manager for AB, and they hire someone to regularly come in and dump hundreds of gallons of beer, becuase it has gone beyond the very short "good until" date. They will not allow it to age on the shelves, because there are no preservatives, other than hops. It is not made from poor ingredients, or anything like that, it is just a bad recipe made for the masses who do not appreciate the difference. I don't think AB puts anything suspect in their beers at all.

[brewmonkey]

My bad side? I dont have one, but if I did you would not be on it. I simply don't like people making statements based on what they believe and then trying to make them seem like facts.

You have provided no facts to support your case and it is all drivel. I did not attack you, but if you are going to make statements like you did you better have something concrete to back it up.

By the way, I rarely use malt. I'm a whole grain kind of guy. I don't like the idea of skipping all those steps in order to make beer. That's mass production.

Malt and grain are the same thing in case you were wondering. Extract and grain are not the same thing. Compressed hops are used because they are easier to work with, not because there is some great miracle behind them. In fact greater utilization comes from pelletized hops then the raw hops, especially if you can find them in T-45 vs T-90 forms or in the case of Yakima Chief their new process pellets (smaller pellet sizes) are outstanding!

In addition to beer and theme parks, the company also has interests in malt production, rice milling, real estate development, turf farming, metalized paper label printing, and transport services. I don't need to think they mass produce- they just do. They mass process everything including the people.

This seems like a sound business practice to me. If you set it up and do it yourself the cost to produce the finished product is much cheaper. Read up on Coors and see what they own. Afterall, Coors survived the depression and prohibition by making porcelain insulators for electrical companies. They also made the first seemless can for beverages.

AB may own their own malt houses (they do buy from other sources as well, as they buy from one of the same companies I do) but malt is still made the same way wether they do it or Rahr does it. They hold no special patents that help them skip any of the needed process behind producing malt. (they do hold patents on varities of Barley though)

Comparing the way the brewing industry makes beer to the way lipton might make tea is absurd, as they are not even close to the same thing. I would like you to come to the next CBC with me and stand before all the attendees and tell them using pelletized hops is bad for the product and that if the continue to use them they are making in your opinion, an inferior product. Better yet, what are your credentials to make these ascertations? I am interested in knowing your background so that I can understand where you are coming from.

Until you can stand behind your statements with evidence from print media/valid sources your statements are nothing more then your own opinions. They are false for the most part and you speak from what appears to be an unread position.


The largest brewer in the world is not AB by the way, it is SAB Miller.

[hopjack13]

hey you guys should really get a room..:p
wow..this is a great thread! i don't pretend to know any thing about brewing. but i do pretend to know about practicly everything else...he he he.
i don't have any solid proof ...but i do have experiance. when i drink a bud or a miller i get an instant headache..thats not from alcohol, if it was then i would get one with every beer! i dont, just the mass produced crap. that right there tells me there may be a little somethin somethin going on here, there, somewhere.
if they wanted the ingredients to be known they would be, and sence they are not, i assume they don't. i know a guy who worked at the miller brewing co in irwindale who said they use formaldehyde in there beer???? if it wasn't true then he lied, but i wouldn't doubt it. i know another guy who help brew bud at a/b. he said they used the beechwood chips to give the yeast something to hang on to??? don't know if thats true either? but i wouldn't doubt it . i don't think we'll ever know exactly what goes in those brews , but they don't agree with me so i stay away!

[brewmonkey]

AB does use beechwood in the process as the addition of the chips gives yeast nucleation sites and the beer will drop brighter, faster.

I have heard the same things about formaldehyde but nothing out there that I have read is definitive about it. Most of what I have read refers to it during the canning process and that it was used as a barrier of some sort to protect the cans from the acidic nature of the beer. But as I said, I have never read anything that is proof positive.

I am a pretty laid back guy, but when someone comes in and spouts their ideas and opinions as facts I get miffed. Nothing he stated is true, nor is it even close to true. When asked for some links to his data he failed to produce. If he has some, I would love to read it.

I do not care for the products of AB, Coors, SAB and the rest as they do not make what I feel is something I would enjoy. That being said, I will defend their process as being very similar to what we employ in pubs and micros. The beer is made in large batches, yes. It is not mass produced by any chemical means other then what a normal brewery would use in the process (sani agents etc...)

[hopjack13]

i know some people who have allergic reactions to sulfite(sp?) in some of the wines. symptom? an instant headache...well it usually takes 30 or 40 min to set in but its what i call instant.
this happens to me especially with bud and miller, i can infer that the same holds true for me, ie.. it must be some kind of allergic reaction...but to what exactly? i don't know. it may not be chemically induced , as i am allergic to poison ivy as well. but somethin's definitely wrong with that beer! to me anyways....

[Jughead]

Could be psychosomatic - maybe some kind of built in defense mechanism to protect you from consuming inferior beer.

[hopjack13]

THAT'S GREAT!!!
ARE YOU A DOCTOR???!!!
IM CURED! sort of , im still not drinking that shite!

[steveh]

Hop and Jug, Bud does he same to me - it's like an instant hangover. At home-brew judging I also avoid the American Lager category now because of a "Bud clone" I once judged. Yes, someone decided to brew an exact clone of Bud, don't ask me why, but whatever he did, he nailed the instant hangover feature - I was crap for the rest of the day.

My theory is the malted rice, and probably a low-grade form of rice. Capital Brewing from Madison (my favorite micro, I'll add) used to brew a Wild Rice beer with rice purchased from Canada and Wisconsin (yes, they grow some rice in WI somewhere), and barley. As the rice didn't impart much flavor, the barley gave the beer its good flavor - but one glass in an evening and my head would POUND the next day.

S.

BTW - for those that may not remember, my subject line is from an old Bud commercial that featured two old guys at a bar, arguing over what made Bud such a good beer: "It's the rice!" "Noo, it's the hops!" And now Busch (whatever generatiion it is now) has a reeaal fancy comercial touting hops as what makes a good beer - wonder when he'll start using more than one.

[hopjack13]

ha! i didn't know they used any hops! certainly can't taste them...

[Punky Brewster]

Brewmonkey, This is vbona. Last week we had a somwhat heated chat. I had to sign up with another name because my company decided to implement web filtering. Don't ask me why the filtered out realbeer.com. Could be references to alcohol or the message board itself. Anyway, You are right on many accounts and it's not that I don't choose to fight with you but I choose to learn instead. My credentials? I've been a homebrewer since 1992. I am not a brewmaster. I make what I like and like what I make. I know a thing or 2 about beer. As far as hops and pellets...The only real difference to me is that the pellets seem to leave a lot more behind. You obviously know your stuff and I respect that. I know it's fun for the group to see people going at it and it's fun for me too but I figured I can gain more from a friendly stance than from a negative stance. Like many people, I know a lot about AB. I must confess that I do drink the stuff on occasion and it does have it's place in the word of beer. No one dispute or deny that regardless of thier brewing technique. I prefer whole grain brewing and I like the purist approach to brewing. I want to understand what's going on in my beer.That's why I don't like compressed hops or malt extracts. I want to be a master. I feel (and here I go with my opinions again. Sorry) that folks who don't use whole grain approach are just mixing things. To me it's like making Campells soup. Is the soup good? yes it's OK sometimes but it doesn't make me a chef? Does the guy who makes yoddles, hoho's, or ring dings call himself a baker?Anyway, I came to learn and I'm sure I can learn from you. Maybe you will be the one who can change my mind

[chazwicke]

I have not brewed in about a decade. I used to use extracts sometimes. Usually in combination with grain. I also used pelletized hops. I made decent beers and I tried different ingredients. I had as much fun making it as drinking it. But I do kind of see your position about Campbell's soup. I think a better example might be those frozen pizza crusts that come with a pre-measured pouch of tomato sauce, pre-measured bag of grated mozzerella and a bag of 30 pepperonis. You are supposed to spread the sauce, cheese and pepperoni on the crust. I never got the point of that. Why not just buy a frozen pizza with the sauce, cheese and meat already spread on. It would be different if you bought a crust and seperately bought different ingredients and made one according to your own recipe. Anyway sorry to get off topic. I usually do not eat frozen pizza anyway or pizza in general for that matter.:)

[fretlessman71]

OK... but is it still pizza? Yes. Can you get somewhat creative with it? Yes. Can it taste good? Yes. On the other hand, are you severely limited in what you can do with it? You bet you are. Doesn't make it "not pizza," though. Nor is my Worry Wort Porter, which I made from a kit, "not beer." It just isn't going to taste quite as good as someone who really knows what they're doing with really good ingredients!

[Tweek]

Chefs who follow recipes or use say chicken stock in their soups are still making the soup imo. Same goes with beers. Now you can get a recipe with everything and follow the directions to a t, but you are still going to get variation, due to style, ferment temp ect. That variation is what will make your beer unique. If it is unique it is yours recipe or no. extract or all grain.

[brewmonkey]

Punky-

Welcome ot the boards, hope you hang around and learn and share with the rest of us. To each his own!

Cheers!

No I am off to throw a frozen pizza in the oven.....:D

[hopjack13]

im still at work and had one of those hot pocket pizza thingys.....it's not really food but it'll fill that empty space ;)

[Tweek]

I like hot pockets. But I bet ya anything there is some group out there perhaps the campaign for real pizza that is going to try to tell me that it is not as good because it is served in a folded piece of dough, and not the traditional pie. :p

[davesarman]

Originally posted by steveh
My theory is the malted rice, and probably a low-grade form of rice. Capital Brewing from Madison (my favorite micro, I'll add) used to brew a Wild Rice beer with rice purchased from Canada and Wisconsin (yes, they grow some rice in WI somewhere), and barley.

Just want to make sure that we all know and can distinguish the rice that is used as an adjunct in brewing and Wild Rice, which is occaisionally used as a main ingredient and flavoring component of some beers. Wild rice is grown in the upper midwest (including my home state of Minnesota) and Canada and is quite flavorful. It is dark brown and can lend a very appealing nutty character to beer when used properly. If you've ever had a wild rice soup, you know what I'm talking about. This is usually cultivated by hand and more expensive compared to white rice that is used as an adjunct for no other purpose than to increase the fermentable sugars in the wort without contributing to the flavor. Just wanted to make sure everyone knew the difference.

[hopjack13]

i like grilled salmon with wild rice.......does that count? i've never tried a beer with wild rice but givin steveh's post on the headache thing ....i probably never will.


But I bet ya anything there is some group out there perhaps the campaign for real pizza
i wouldn't be surprised, some people will rebel against anything if it gives them some sort of purpose. there is actually a womens against blow jobs group thing i saw somewhere.......i was like, damn, get a life people!

[Tweek]

those women need to be stopped!

[chazwicke]

AMEN TWEEK!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by davesarman
Just want to make sure that we all know and can distinguish the rice that is used as an adjunct in brewing and Wild Rice, which is occaisionally used as a main ingredient and flavoring component of some beers. Wild rice is grown in the upper midwest (including my home state of Minnesota) and Canada and is quite flavorful. It is dark brown and can lend a very appealing nutty character to beer when used properly. If you've ever had a wild rice soup, you know what I'm talking about. This is usually cultivated by hand and more expensive compared to white rice that is used as an adjunct for no other purpose than to increase the fermentable sugars in the wort without contributing to the flavor. Just wanted to make sure everyone knew the difference.

Would it be the same if it was Uncle Bens Minute Rice?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Tweek
I like hot pockets. But I bet ya anything there is some group out there perhaps the campaign for real pizza that is going to try to tell me that it is not as good because it is served in a folded piece of dough, and not the traditional pie.

I do not think I have ever eaten a hot pocket. I'm gonna start a CAMPRP chapter here. (Even though I hardly ever eat the stuff.) I'm taking financial contributions:D

[fretlessman71]

Yesterday my wife made ice cubes. I had some Kool-Aid, dropped a few in the glass, told her what a good cook she was. Hey - the cubes made the drink! ;)

[fretlessman71]

Oh... this was yesterday MORNING. No brew for me until late afternoon. Just so you know...

And BTW... I have a special technique for stirring sugar, powder, and water together so it won't un-dissolve and settle at the bottom of the pitcher. If that doesn't make me a creative chef/cook/whatever, what does it make me then? I just wasn't about to go out and buy all of those chemicals to make my OWN Kool-Aid, so I bought the packet and got creative. :p

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I do not think I have ever eaten a hot pocket. I'm gonna start a CAMPRP chapter here. (Even though I hardly ever eat the stuff.) I'm taking financial contributions.

You need to eat a Hot Pocket with a Hop Pocket! :D You can't bust on Hot Pocket's until you try them, anyway!

[chazwicke]

Well I certainly enjoy Hop Pockets. Hop Pocket Ale is one of my local favorites.

[fretlessman71]

I could trade you a box of Hot Pockets for a 6er of Hop Pockets! Just let me know what flavor you like the best... :D

[chazwicke]

I'll send a couple after the holidays when I send the bottle conditioned English brews.

[chazwicke]

No need to send Hot Pockets back. CAMRP would frown on that.

[fretlessman71]

Deal! You like the pepperoni pizza flavor, or something more traditional like ham and cheese? ;)

[fretlessman71]

Actually, I'm with the CAMRHP..... :D There are a lot of copycats out there using (GASP!) real ingredients, and I'm sticking to my guns for more preseravitives in my diet!

(Yes, they make a few veggie type ones...)

[brewmonkey]

This without a doubt is probably the most dysfunctional thread on the internet. I for one am glad to be a part of it! :D

[chazwicke]

I need a list of the chemicals for Kool Aid. I may want to try making my own the hard way.

[fretlessman71]

You'll be getting your honorary Real Hot Pocket the next time I drive thru KC. By the way, just how WAS your pizza the other night? ;)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I need a list of the chemicals for Kool Aid. I may want to try making my own the hard way.

Orange KoolAid ingredients:

Cirtic Acid (provides tartness), maltodextrin (from corn - DUH!), salt, calcium phosphate (prevents caking), natural flavor, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), artifical flavor, yellow 5, artificial color, red 40, red 40 lake, BHA (preserves freshness).

Go for it. :D

[chazwicke]

I have a real question for you. Being as you are a bass player. What type of music do you play? Have you recorded anything on CD? Maybe a trade of beer for a sample of your playing. ( Unless it is metalhead stuff).

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Orange KoolAid ingredients:

Cirtic Acid (provides tartness), maltodextrin (from corn - DUH!), salt, calcium phosphate (prevents caking), natural flavor, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), artifical flavor, yellow 5, artificial color, red 40, red 40 lake, BHA (preserves freshness).

Go for it. :D

How much Calcium Phosphate? I would hate for it to cake.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
You'll be getting your honorary Real Hot Pocket the next time I drive thru KC. By the way, just how WAS your pizza the other night? ;)

Like stale cardboard with a really bad marinara sauce and cheese that won't melt due to the chemical content, JUST THE WAY I LIKE IT!

[fretlessman71]

Well, I have a real ANSWER for you... :)

My greatest "claim to fame" is that of having played with a band called Wind Machine from the years 1991-1998. Got to record 8 albums with them, and we never quite hit the big time, but we got reeeeealy close for awhile when I first joined. We have (ulp! I should have mentioned this a month ago here!) 4 Christmas CDs available, and they're all very different but very listenable.

Wind Machine was, for lack of a better description, a "melodic acoustic-guitar oriented contemperary jazz quintet." I would encourage any of you to go to some of the CD websites and see if you can find a sound sample and let me know what you think. WM is no longer (after 14 albums bumping our heads against the glass ceiling we gave up), but the music is very well recorded, and full of very talented players. Give us a whirl!

Chaz, if I'm able to lay my hands on any of our old stock I'll let you know. We sold a lot of our distribution rights to another company when we stopped playing, and I don't know what the status of that is. (Pardon me for ending a sentence with a prepositon.)

As for other people I've played with, here's a short list and if you find anything to listen to on the web, let me know what you think.

Dave Beegle
Danny Oertli
Dave Villano
J. Paul
Perpetual Motion

...and a host of others too numerous and insignificant to mention here.

(Chaz... this wasn't a sneaky attempt to get me to make a long post so you could take back position #6, was it? Curse you....)

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by chazwicke
How much Calcium Phosphate? I would hate for it to cake.

Experiment with it! I'm sure you'll come up with something drinkable in a few tries. Don't worry, relax, and have a KoolAid! :D

[fretlessman71]

And, for those of you interested in Wind Machine, you can listen to a little bit of our stuff here at Amazon. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000011ZZ/qid=1071947690/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/103-4999286-7293449?v=glance&s=music&n=507846) If you listen to O Come All Ye Faithful/Deck The Halls, that's me entering on fretless - kinda sounds like a cross between a french horn, a cello, and some strange keyboard sound... but that's me! Happy listening!

[b3s]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I just wasn't about to go out and buy all of those chemicals to make my OWN Kool-Aid, so I bought the packet and got creative.

whew, for a second there i thought you might be related to the reverend jim jones, fret ;)

[fretlessman71]

Yeah! Careful with the beer I send you, alright? :D

Hey... did you send me another reply email? My server seems to be having issues... Drop me a PM if you're having a hard time getting ahold of me. Let's trade some beer!

[b3s]

oh, i thought you might be coming out here, so i've been holding the beer! i'll e-mail ya.

[fretlessman71]

No worries. I've been waiting until I actually HAD something you were interested in to get this going! Drop me a line!

BTW... email seems to be working again. Blast Netscape....

[chazwicke]

Well I listened to samples from several of your albums. I am impressed. Kinda Windham hillish. Excellent musicianship. I have several friends who are in bands playing various types of music. And I have been a collector of music as long as I can remember. My vinyl collection numbers around 2,500 albums and on CD about 4,000. I like just about every type of music (except headbanger stuff and rap.) from World music to 20s / 30s jazz. Thanks for the bio and I probably will pick up a couple of your cds.

[fretlessman71]

Yeah - we got that a lot. They tried to put us in New Age, Jazz, Adult Contemporary, and so on... nothing seemed to be a good fit. I guess that means we're unique!

Let me see what I can find from one of my old bandmates AFA old new stock, ok? Let's make a trade!

[chazwicke]

Deal!

[Punky Brewster]

You know what? It's all good.

[GunNut76]

Sounds good fretless. I kinda figured you played jazz...you need a fretless bass to get some of the neuances and 1/64th step notes that they use in jazz. The only other insterment that has a greater range than a fretless string is the human voice.