new brewer confused about bittering hops

[leoglenwood]

and their contribution to flavor... I understand the concepts of flavor and aroma hops (I think), but what does it matter what type of hop you need for bittering as long as the IBUs add up?

for example, all the Belgian brews that have little hop flavor or aroma use Hallertau - why can't I use a little bit of Horizon?

more importantly, I wanted to make a barleywine, but it was calling for Magnum, and I have Summit -what does the switch of bittering hop do there, assuming the IBUs are the same (I'm using an online beer recipe calculator)

if so, how?

thanks a lot for helping me understand this.

[markaberrant]

Bittering hops do contribute some hop character to the finished beer, but you do have a little more leeway.

Horizon should work as a bittering hop in just about any style. It has low cohumulone, which results in a clean bitterness. Magnum is another low cohumulone hop.

Summit is pretty distinct. Depending on the recipe, I don't see why you couldn't use it to bitter a stout, but it will taste a lot different than if you used Magnum. Heck, I used Simcoe and Chinook to bitter a stout, but then I wanted it to be agressive and piney.

[Mad Scientist]

In terms of using Summit in a barleywine in place of Magnum, I do not think there will be a huge difference in the final beer if it is used as a bittering hop, but if it is used for flavor and aroma there will be a difference, but it will just be another quality homebrew :)

[markaberrant]

Whoops, not sure how I read "stout" instead of "barleywine"

[Mad Scientist]

Yeah, but stout is good also, I had plently last night

[Beer Martin]

I was confused about my hop stock for my last two beers (Belgian Golden Strong (BGS) and an Oatmeal Stout). I ended up just using what I had on hand for bitering hops. I boiled the BGS for 90 minutes. I'd be surprised if a master judge could tell the difference between hops after a 90 minute boil.

And for the stout, well it was a stout. The burnt character should be more than enough to overpower hop flavor after a 60 minute boil.

I mean if your planning to win a nation homebrew competition it's probably best to go with your intended hops, but heck for general consumption and local competitions it's no big deal in my opinion.

For other beers if you use flavor or aroma hops the bitering hops will be overpowered in those catagories anyway.
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[markaberrant]

And for the stout, well it was a stout. The burnt character should be more than enough to overpower hop flavor after a 60 minute boil.

I made a REALLY roasty stout. About 1.085 OG, and used 19% roasted malt (around 60/40 mix of chocolate malt and roasted barley). And like I already said, I only used bittering hops @ 60 minutes; a 50/50 mix of Chinook and Simcoe.

It is really friggin' piney, even in the aroma. There is no mistaking what kind of hops were used.

By the way, it is an incredible beer... but definitely not for the timid.

[Mad Scientist]

Post the recipe, let's have a look at it

[darylM]

In my experience Chinook can be tasted even after a 60-90 min boil.

[beerking]

I was confused about my hop stock for my last two beers (Belgian Golden Strong (BGS) and an Oatmeal Stout). I ended up just using what I had on hand for bitering hops. I boiled the BGS for 90 minutes. I'd be surprised if a master judge could tell the difference between hops after a 90 minute boil.

Well, speaking AS a Master Judge, it would all depend on the beer style and the hops. If you are brewing Marzen, and use Cascade, I don't care how long the boil, I can tell.
That being said, except for cases where the hops used are obviously out of place, there is rarely much taken away from the beer because the hops weren't exact.
For example, if you use anything not VERY close to Saaz in a Bohemian Pils, we'll probably ding you, but if it is a German Pils, any noble hop would be fine. Any other hop would earn demerits. NW hops would be BIG demerits.
Other styles may not be so specific. English IPA COULD work with almost any non-NW hop. I made an all Tettnang IPA this year that turned out great. The amazing thing is the amount of citrus character I got from high additions of Tett. It could have passed for a NW IPA.

[Mad Scientist]

Well, speaking AS a Master Judge, it would all depend on the beer style and the hops. If you are brewing Marzen, and use Cascade, I don't care how long the boil, I can tell.
That being said, except for cases where the hops used are obviously out of place, there is rarely much taken away from the beer because the hops weren't exact.
For example, if you use anything not VERY close to Saaz in a Bohemian Pils, we'll probably ding you, but if it is a German Pils, any noble hop would be fine. Any other hop would earn demerits. NW hops would be BIG demerits.
Other styles may not be so specific. English IPA COULD work with almost any non-NW hop. I made an all Tettnang IPA this year that turned out great. The amazing thing is the amount of citrus character I got from high additions of Tett. It could have passed for a NW IPA.

Where'd you get all of the Tett?

[Beer Martin]

Well, speaking AS a Master Judge, it would all depend on the beer style and the hops. If you are brewing Marzen, and use Cascade, I don't care how long the boil, I can tell.
That being said, except for cases where the hops used are obviously out of place, there is rarely much taken away from the beer because the hops weren't exact.
For example, if you use anything not VERY close to Saaz in a Bohemian Pils, we'll probably ding you, but if it is a German Pils, any noble hop would be fine. Any other hop would earn demerits. NW hops would be BIG demerits.
Other styles may not be so specific. English IPA COULD work with almost any non-NW hop. I made an all Tettnang IPA this year that turned out great. The amazing thing is the amount of citrus character I got from high additions of Tett. It could have passed for a NW IPA.

Thanks for weighing in guys. I stand corrected.

Though, as stated above it wont likely ruin a beer. Just keep better track of what hops you have next time.

There are a couple of table out there about what hops would be suitable replacements for one another. I'll see if I can't dig one up for you for future reference.
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[Beer Martin]

This may not be the best, but it's the first one I found on the net. There are several others and it's so widely known now they're all pretty good.

Hop Chart (http://www.rooftopbrew.net/?page_id=239)
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[beerking]

Note that my examples were all in the extreme range. Most of the time, you will be fine.
Another hop that will show through even if used only for long boil is Galena. Tastes kind of like earwax.

Mad, I had a good amount of tett that was from 2006 harvest, so I used that for bittering and then fresh for flavor and aroma. Was better than throwing the old tett away.

Try this hop chart:
http://byo.com/referenceguide/hops/

[darylM]

and their contribution to flavor... I understand the concepts of flavor and aroma hops (I think), but what does it matter what type of hop you need for bittering as long as the IBUs add up?

for example, all the Belgian brews that have little hop flavor or aroma use Hallertau - why can't I use a little bit of Horizon?

more importantly, I wanted to make a barleywine, but it was calling for Magnum, and I have Summit -what does the switch of bittering hop do there, assuming the IBUs are the same (I'm using an online beer recipe calculator)

if so, how?

thanks a lot for helping me understand this.

Until I did a little more reading and drinking, I thought the same way. Then I used Chinook and that assumption started to change. When I read about how Chinook can be tasted even as a bittering hop, it confirmed it.

[Mad Scientist]

A little chinook goes a long way...best used sparingly

[markaberrant]

Post the recipe, let's have a look at it

Don't have the exact quantities at my fingertips, but here are the specs:

68.5% 2-row
10% chocolate malt
8.5% roasted barley
6.5% flaked barley
6.5% crystal 120

90 minute boil
OG: 1.085
FG: 1.021
equal amounts of Chinook and Simcoe @ 60 minutes to hit 80-85 IBUs
US-05 yeast

[Mad Scientist]

Hmm....sounds tasty, I might have to brew that one up....

[leoglenwood]

Chinook is the Arrogant Bastard hop?

Feel free to recommend extra reading - since starting in Jan I've read Papazian, Hieronymus, a book on Barleywine, the Calagione Extreme Brewing book, and the designing great beers book; I teach high school English, so I'm always up for reading more

[beerking]

Chinook is the Arrogant Bastard hop?

Feel free to recommend extra reading - since starting in Jan I've read Papazian, Hieronymus, a book on Barleywine, the Calagione Extreme Brewing book, and the designing great beers book; I teach high school English, so I'm always up for reading more

I started with "Better Beer and How to Brew It" by Reese, then read Papazian (first edition).
Without a doubt, the best book to read these days is John Palmer's "How to Brew."
It is in its third edition, but you can check out the first edition free online at:
www.howtobrew.com

[dparsons]

I think the key is that the bittering hop oils are isomerized. The flavor, determined by the mix of compounds in the hops, is altered by the isomerization but will still be specific to the hop variety as the unique compound mixture will still be unique when the hop oils are isomerized. The flavor will not be the same as for a flavor addition, but it will still have a distinct taste to it.

[Mad Scientist]

Chinook is the Arrogant Bastard hop?


Not sure. Why don't you email Stone and ask them?

[Mill Rat]

Not sure. Why don't you email Stone and ask them?You're just setting him up for a little abuse, aren't you?

AFA good brewing reading, I recommend George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science, too.

[Mad Scientist]

You're just setting him up for a little abuse, aren't you?

AFA good brewing reading, I recommend George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science, too.

Umm.....no :)