New New Zealand Lager Kit - opinions

[Peterlonz]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here but have been home brewing off & on for 40 years.
Think I held the local record in the early years for quantity thrown away until I ironed out the bad practices.

Anyway asking opinions on the fairly new "Macs - All Malt Late Hopped 1.7kg Lager Kit".
Its an all malt obviously & makes 11.5 litres, strength not stated but around 5% expected.
I have not put down yet.
Because in New Zealand, some kits can be quite old & the yeasts difficult to start, I have made a practice of always adding a yeast sachet from one of the fast moving Supermarket kits. In this way I always get a quick start & infection has (as a direct result of this practice) become extremely rare.
Q: Is it considered that the yeast marketed with the kit would be superior & does the above practice risk noticeable degradation of final flavour?
Opiinions on the above practice & this lager in particular please.

Pete

[GunNut76]

If I understood your question you buy another kit JUST for the yeast right? Seems like kind of a waste to me...personally I'd buy about 50 packs of Nottingham or Windsor and keep 'em in the icebox. An 11g pack of Nottingham cost me .80 at my LHBS the Windsor is a little more. Just my 2.

[Peterlonz]

No, that would be uneconomical of course.
I use the malt from the Cheaper Supermarket kits instead of sugar when brewing from the better kits where many still call for added sugar.
I discovered long ago that all malt brewing is always noticeably superior.
And surprisingly adding the kit malt with hop extract, instead of sugar, or plain malt, whilst it does produce a hoppier brew, the additional hop flavour seems to increase disproportionally.
The resultant brew I find very appealing tho' hoppier than many might be happy with.
Of all the techniques I have tried, whilst keeping my brewing simple, I have found the use of two yeasts from different kits the most influential in avoiding failure.
For example, I never actually sterilise my bottles prior to bottling, just wash them carefully soon after emptying & drain dry. Screw caps are then replaced loosely. Breaks all the rules, but it seems not to be a material factor in infection control.

Pete

[Asahikun]

Peter,

You seem to be asking a number of different questions.

I have been brewing with 2 hopped extracts per batch recently and have been very happy with the results. I have never, however, doubled up on the yeast. I don't see that this would give any benefits, unless one was no good and then why would you add it in the first place?
My supplier has just started stocking unhopped malt extracts and I'm looking forward to trying one hopped and one unhopped in my next batch.
You mention New Zealand kits as having yeasts that are difficult to start. 8 out of my 9 batches so far have been made with Black Rock malt extracts. Black Rock, as I'm sure you know is a New Zealand company. I have only ever used one packet of yeast per batch, have never had a slow start to fermentation and have never had an infection. Perhaps you should check the expiry date on the yeast before you buy the kit.

I seriously doubt that adding 2 packets of yeast has any effect on the chances of infection. Adding one pack of quality yeast and perhaps making use of a starter would be far more effective.

Finally, I have a friend who uses a similar method of washing his bottles. It seems to work for him aswell but, personally, I would rather not take the chance.

[Peterlonz]

Thanks for the detailed response.
I need to explain my yeast technique:
First I have never liked the "make a starter procedure".
Why, well it seems to me (& hundreds of brews have proved this to my satisfaction) that if the yeast is good there is absolutely no need & the starter process is a potential infection source.

I observe that many NZ & Australian kits advise "pitch the yeast into the wort immediately the temp is below 26 deg Celcius" so it seems they also doubt the need for starters.

I agree that the better kits do advise starters - but at least you can see how I came to the view that they are avoidable - until I realised that all yeasts are not created equal & some are difficult to start. I would expect a starter made from such yeast might also be an infection risk, but how do you know, throw away if not well started in 8 hours ?
The use by date is not a reliable indicator in my experience hence my adoption of the two yeast pitch technique, it's simple, quick, easy, & minimises infection risks.
The question I put is: Will the two (usually different) yeasts impart a noticeably different flavour than that intended?

Your note re Black Rock is a surprise, I had not seen or heard of this outfit, they may be new to the scene, I will research.

Again thanks to all respondants,
Pete

[paul84043]

If the yeast you are buying at the supermarket is of the same "style", then there really should be no downside, and your chances of getting fresher yeast are drastically improved. Probably a very good idea.

I'm assuming here that we're talking dry yeast...
The drawback to starters is that unless you include a yeast nutrient, the little buggers work so fast that you run a very good chance of them starving and going dormant, or dying. Plus the extra step leaves you vunlerable to infection as you stated.
I think most dry yeast manufacturers recommend pitching it dry at the highest possible temp (below 80F), this gives your yeast the maximun time to do it's thing with the higher temp also giving things a good kick in the rear.

I think you've got a good practice going and if it works? Then don't fix it!!

Welocme to the board! It's great to hear from people that have been brewing for many years. I'm sure there is alot that you can teaach us young bucks.....

[Asahikun]

It's weird how one comment can lead the discussion astray.
I have never used a starter either.
I'm curious about anyone's answer to his question, though.
To what extent will the use of 2 different yeasts affect the flavor?
As far as I know there are no real benefits as far as starting time/ likelihood of infection is concerned so perhaps there is a taste benefit.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by Asahikun
To what extent will the use of 2 different yeasts affect the flavor?

That's one of the big drawbacks. Suppose you make a great beer... the question of how much was the one yeast responsible for the flavor vs. the other yeast arises (if you'll pardon the pun), making the beer harder to duplicate.

As infection risks for starters go, from my experience, I would say that it's pretty minimal, as long as you sanitize everything properly beforehand. If you see mold growing on the top of your starter, or if you notice other signs of infection, like stringy bacteria strands, then sure, you would pitch the starter into your garbage or houseplants, instead of your wort.

On a different subject, I read somewhere that the dry yeasts are more suspectible to being contaminated with wild yeast strains; if you use a healthy liquid yeast vial, it should minimize problems as well as the need to add dry yeast from the supermarket.

[Peterlonz]

Again thanks to everyone for the comment & interest.

If the complete thread is read it will I hope be seen that my approach is keep it as simple as possible whilst eliminating aspects of the process which are by experience risk prone.

So initial sterilisation is a must but there are some simple procedures that work quickly & well besides the use of special sterilising solutions or metabisulphate.
Isolation asap of the wort with yeast pitched is important, use airlock etc.
Use two yeast sachets, different yeast of same type, makes for rapid start with zero failures (in my case I have used this techniquefor over 10 years).
Dried yeast supplied by even the cheaper kit manufacturers is absolutely free of stay yeasts & is easier to keep than liquid samples. I suspect everything puchased at brew shops because sometimes certain lines move very slowly, this would include liquid cultures & fancy dried yeasts IMHO.
Use ordinary tapwater to make up the wort, but filter over an activated charcoal filter to remove residual chlorine, I use our everyday kitchen filter which we use on drinking water, teamaking etc.
Add white plain sugar for seconary fermentation, into bottles of choice, cleaned as described elswheer in this thread.
Forget the hydrometer for beer brewing unless you are investigating a specific problem. it's not simple to read & even a little experience is sufficient to recognise end point of fermentation so long as the correct temp band has been maintined by one ingenious means or another, depending largely where you live.
My bottle recommendation is now brown or green plastic bottles with good quality re-sealable screw caps. I don't buy them; when soft drink bottles are emptied by members of the extened family I grab the undamaged bottles of my prefered size - wash & store.
Crown caps, heavy glass bottles & bottle capping machines are not needed.
The question was asked how to duplicate a brew if two yeasts are used, to which I direct my original question, will the use of two yeasts make a noticeable difference, if no then the duplication issue is irelevant, if yes then you would need to experiment with the sole aim of eliminating all brewing variables including a cessation of the two yeast practice I use & recommend.
After 40 years I still can't duplicate Guiness or Heieneken & my better beers are never totally consistent for reasons I am not sufficiently qualified to say & because my KISS approach to the subject has not seen much testing of sample brews against a control brew.
None of this is to say that a more precise or different approach might not yield equal or better results, depends how you value your time.

Pete

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by Peterlonz
Dried yeast supplied by even the cheaper kit manufacturers is absolutely free of stay yeasts & is easier to keep than liquid samples. I suspect everything puchased at brew shops because sometimes certain lines move very slowly, this would include liquid cultures & fancy dried yeasts IMHO.


That's pretty surprising to me; the pitchable vials from White Labs (available from MoreBeer (http://www.morebeer.com/) ) are very easy to keep, and every one I've used has a best before date, so even if turnover isn't high, you should still know from the date.

From what brewmonkey said in one of the other threads, even a temperature difference of a few degrees can make for significant difference in taste, so it may not be too much of a reach to say that two yeast styles will also complicate brewing a batch consistently. But I don't know that it would degrade the taste for certain. It certainly SHOULD be different, but that's not always a bad thing...

What I would recommend is going by the scientific method; try one yeast, at fixed temperature (using a fridge/controller, or the like) and see what the results are. Keep adjusting variables until you hit on something you like. Then, start your own brewery, drive the majors out of business, and retire rich. ;)

[Asahikun]

Peter,

If you're curious about Black Rock, check this link. Although I don't have experience with other kits, I have been really happy with these.

Black Rock (http://www.vinexpert.com/a/blackrocka.HTML)

On a separate point, there is currently a discussion about overpitching yeast in the "Yeast and Fermentation" section. I think your technique of doubling the amount of yeast you pitch certainly falls into this category so you may want to check it out.
Here's a comment by Brewmonkey on the topic:

When you overpitch the yeast will not have a complete growth cycle leading to fewer new "daughter" cells and low viability. Overpitching will also lead to lack of desired or expected fermentation characteristics of the yeast and as autolysis occurs it can leave a sharp/astringent note.

[Peterlonz]

Hi again,

My point from the start was not about how many yeasts can live on a fleas testicle. That's for the guys who have theories & energy & time to burn.
I just want every brew to turn out free from infection, with minimum effort & an acceptable taste. I have made it plain that I don't expect or obtain absolutely consistent results, but I do get reasonable consistency, at least good enough to be able to judge one kit against another so long as they are of similar age.

I don't understand "overpitching" & can't see how anyone thinks two sachets of yeast could be so labelled, remember I set out to say I have proven results of over 10 years. Balls! whatever overpitching is I don't have it.

I also can't be bothered attempting precise temp control & believe anyone here who thinks they can would be well advised to set up a thermocouple & record every half hour or so the actual temp measured somewhwre relevent, you might be lucky to eventually hold to within + or - 1.5 deg Celcius.
I don't know if this is important, I doubt the Belgian monks, the fathers of our hobby gave a damn, they unwittingly gained control by other means.

Now does anyone actually know the answer to my humble question?
AND is Macs all malt late hopped lager any good?

Cheeky Pete

[Asahikun]

Pete,

By "My humble question" I assume you mean whether the use of 2 yeasts will affect final flavor.

I first responded that the use of 2 yeasts wasn't necessary. This is backed up by the fact that unhopped malt extracts, which are designed to be used instead of sugar, do not come with a packet of yeast. The yeast supplied with the hopped extract is enough for one batch. You may call me naive, but I trust that the manufacturer of the product includes the correct amount of yeast for the specified amount (usually 5 gallons).

I then quoted Brewmonkey who, from what I have read, has considerable experience and knowledge. The quote clearly states that too much yeast WILL cause undesirable flavors.
You seem convinced that you are not overpitching and I personally do not have the knowledge or experience to tell you whether you are or not. That is why I quoted Brewmonkey. I think the reason that no one has given you a definite answer may be because no one else uses this practice and, therefore, doesn't know the answer. Logically, if no one has experience of this practice, then only someone who is knowledgeable in the scientific aspects of yeast behaviour will be able to give you an intelligent answer. I assume that is the kind of answer you would prefer.
Brewmonkey, please enlighten us.