Carb level in bottles

[GunNut76]

What is the max carb level that would be considered for bottles? I have swing tops and crowns.

[Richard English]

I don't know how you'd check the pressure, but I reckon to use a half teaspoonful of priming sugar to an Imperial pint. Better to underprime is my view - you can always add more sugar if the beer's too flat but you can't fix a burst bottle!

[luvtinayothers]

Originally posted by Richard English
I don't know how you'd check the pressure, but I reckon to use a half teaspoonful of priming sugar to an Imperial pint. Better to underprime is my view - you can always add more sugar if the beer's too flat but you can't fix a burst bottle!

Duct tape'll fix it.

[GunNut76]

Mr. English-I have been using one PET to tell me when my beer is carbonated and that is the first one I drink. My problem is I don't know if the rest of the batch is still carbonating after I drink the PET. And I don't want to hear any suggestions about kegging...I'll get a round tuit when I have the extra $$$...probably at tax return time, problem is I don't know if I should get a kegging system or a 60" big screen with surround sound.:confused:

[Richard English]

To use one bottle as a tester is a good idea. And if the other bottles have cleared bright then it's a fair bet that the fermentation will have finished.

And I won't talk about kegging - my views on putting good beers into kegs and injecting them with extraneous carbon dioxide are well known! Stick to natural bottle conditioning and you'll not go far wrong.

[Jughead]

GunNut, go with a 48" and use the rest of the cash for kegging.

Richard, lets not forget the option of natural conditioning/carbonating in the keg, rather than force priming with CO2.

Cheers

[Richard English]

Quote "...Richard, lets not forget the option of natural conditioning/carbonating in the keg, rather than force priming with CO2..."

This is the way we do it in pubs in the UK (although we call the unpressurised vessels casks, not kegs). However, there is a very limited lifespan for beer made in this way and I was told in a previous conversation that many US homebrewers preferred to sterilise their beer and use artificial carbonation rather than suffer the limited lifespan of naturally conditioned cask beer.

[toneyc]

"Sterilize their beer?" How would you do that? I don't sterilize my beer, I rack it into the keg and put it in the fridge at about 40-44*F under about 10 psi of CO2. It keeps for months in those conditions. And gets better!

:)
Toney.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Richard, lets not forget the option of natural conditioning/carbonating in the keg, rather than force priming with CO2..."

This is the way we do it in pubs in the UK (although we call the unpressurised vessels casks, not kegs). However, there is a very limited lifespan for beer made in this way and I was told in a previous conversation that many US homebrewers preferred to sterilise their beer and use artificial carbonation rather than suffer the limited lifespan of naturally conditioned cask beer.

The lifespan of a real ale and one that is "falsely" carbonated is almost identical. The only problem with beer that is carbonated and then bottled is the air pickup at bottling time. With most of the high speed lines and the new nitrogen purges that amount of air has been cut to almost zero.

I also know of no brewer in this country that sterilizes their beer. Some may pasteurize, but that is probably about 5% of the manufacturers.

[GunNut76]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I also know of no brewer in this country that sterilizes their beer. Some may pasteurize, but that is probably about 5% of the manufacturers.

The only brewer that I know of that pasteurizes their beer is Guinness and A-B does too, I think. There may be others. I know Coors and Miller don't pasteurize, but since Miller was bought by SAB that may change.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by GunNut76
The only brewer that I know of that pasteurizes their beer is Guinness and A-B does too, I think. There may be others. I know Coors and Miller don't pasteurize, but since Miller was bought by SAB that may change.

Anchor is pasteurized as well and there are some of the regional specialties that are doing the same.

[GunNut76]

Thanks Brewmonkey! I'll file that under "Stuff I previously did not know":)

[Richard English]

Apologies. I should have used the word "pasteurised".

I am, of course, talking here about cask versus keg beer - not bottled beer, since this sub-thread was in answer to Gunnut76's point about "kegging". I agree that the lifespan of brewery-condtioned bottled beer and bottle-conditioned beer is similar - although bottle-conditioned beers will continue to develop in the bottle (usually to improve) whereas brewery-condition bottled beers will not.

Insofar as draught beers are concerned I suspect that the figure of 5% is very optimistic. I would imagine that around 95% of US "draft" beer is pasteurised. All the major brewers do it and they account for most of the beer production of the world.

And lifespan of cask-conditioned Real Ale and pasteurised "keg" beer is very different. Pasteurised and artficially carbonated beer (= A-B and its clones) lasts far longer than Real Ale - if it did not why on earth would the likes of A-B go to the expense of this extra processing? A-B type fizz keeps what little flavour it has for months (or probably years); Real Ale lasts only for a few days since, once the residual sugar has been used up and the fermentation stops the beer starts its inexorable process into becoming vinegar. A, extraneously-applied carbon dioxide "blanket" will slow the process but will not stop it.


Those of you who have drunk good cask-conditioned ales will know the difference between them and A-B type keg beers; those who have not drunk them will simply have to take the words of those of us who have that they are very, very different drinks!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Richard English


Insofar as draught beers are concerned I suspect that the figure of 5% is very optimistic. I would imagine that around 95% of US "draft" beer is pasteurised. All the major brewers do it and they account for most of the beer production of the world.

Real Ale lasts only for a few days since, once the residual sugar has been used up and the fermentation stops the beer starts its inexorable process into becoming vinegar.


Those of you who have drunk good cask-conditioned ales will know the difference between them and A-B type keg beers; those who have not drunk them will simply have to take the words of those of us who have that they are very, very different drinks!

I appreciate that you are a CAMRA fan as am I, but please stop lumping American Craft brewers into the fray when you speak of American beer. If you notice I said 5% of the maufacturers not 5% of the beer.

Once the bottle condition process finishes it does not start turning into "vinegar". That would require the introduction of acetic acid (mother of vinegar) to start. While over a long period it is possible it does not start right away and usually has to be introduced. I would hate to think all the Thomas Hardy's I have had for years are going to suck! (I know they wont)

As far as real ale. Alot of us Americans have had it. Matter of fact sitting on the bar in the pub is a 1/2pint pull Anagram CQ beer engine as well as 4 firkins and 2 pins that I purchased through Paul Pandikke of UK Brewing some years ago. While not all the customers drink from the engine a good portion do and very much care for the cask beers I serve.

While the beer culture in the US is not the same as in the UK please stop bagging on American brewers/drinkers. We are happy with what we have and have plenty of pubs making the products we care about!

[Richard English]

Quote "...Once the bottle condition process finishes it does not start turning into "vinegar". ..."

I never said it did! Read my posting again.

And I apologise, too, fo misreading yours. You did, indeed, say 5% of the manufacturers. That this 5% probably makes 95% of the beer produced (and not just in the USA - as I also said) is just a regretable fact

[brewmonkey]

Real Ale lasts only for a few days since, once the residual sugar has been used up and the fermentation stops the beer starts its inexorable process into becoming vinegar

It takes a lot more then that for the beer to start the vinegar process. Mother of Vinegar or an acetic acid infection would have to be introduced. Your playing semantics but that's ok, I know what you mean.

Those 5% of the manufacturers would not account for 95% of the beer as American Craft brewers (pubs, micro's, regional specialties) make up somewhere around 20% of the bbl's produced last year, none of them pasteurize their products.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Those 5% of the manufacturers would not account for 95% of the beer as American Craft brewers (pubs, micro's, regional specialties) make up somewhere around 20% of the bbl's produced last year..."

I am delighted to learn that such inroads are being made into the chemical fizz lake. Forgive me, though, what is a "bbl"? In the UK the chemical fizz makers now account for around 75% of all draught beer consumed - even though we have a fine range of traditional ales.

So far as acetification is concerned I agree that it needs the bacteria to start the process, of course. However this is one of the big problems with cask-conditioned beers. Once the beer has stopped fermenting the carbon-dioxide blanket disappears and air then comes into contact with the beer (as it must when beer is drawn out of the cask). Air from a bar, or even a cellar, will pretty soon have carried in something to infect the beer.

I have had too many vinegary pints to doubt that this is what happens, quite quickly, to cask beer that has been on sale too long. An artificially introduced carbon dioxide blanket will slow the process but many purists object to it, claiming it affects the flavour of the beer. I try to make sure the pubs I use turn thei beer over quickly enough that it doesn't spoil!

[brewmonkey]

So far as acetification is concerned I agree that it needs the bacteria to start the process, of course. However this is one of the big problems with cask-conditioned beers. Once the beer has stopped fermenting the carbon-dioxide blanket disappears and air then comes into contact with the beer (as it must when beer is drawn out of the cask). Air from a bar, or even a cellar, will pretty soon have carried in something to infect the beer.

OK, we are on the same sheet of music, just dancing a different dance! I too have had some "acetic" beers as the CO2 level dies and the cask fills with ambient air. I too refuse to use a CO2 breather on my casks and if they are on long enough to head south I pull them.

Funny you should ask what a bbl is as it is short for British Barrel. :D

[Richard English]

Quote "...Funny you should ask what a bbl is as it is short for British Barrel..."

Interesting since we never use the term here. It's important, of course, since "barrels" (most often used to denote oil) normally means (I believe) US barrels which are significantly smaller than UK barrels From memory a US barrel is 32 US gallons whereas a UK barrel is 36 Imperial gallons.

And now I'm off to catch the train and tube to Paddington where I shall be able to sample several pints of Fuller's - always kept beautifully! I wonder if he'll have any draught 1845 left?

[brewmonkey]

Close, we consider 31 USG a bbl.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Close, we consider 31 USG a bbl..."

Which it's not, of course! Our cask sizes are very ancient and are as follows:

Pin 4½ Gallons
Firkin 9 Gallons = 2 Pins
Kilderkin 18 Gallons = 2 Firkins
Barrel 36 Gallons = 2 Kilderkins
Hogshead 54 Gallons = 1½ Barrels
Puncheon 72 Gallons = 2 Barrels
Butt 108 Gallons = 2 Hogsheads
Tun 216 Gallons = 2 Butts

The gallons are Imperial (4.546 litres) not US (3.785 litres) and thus a UK barrel is 163.66 litres as opposed to a 32 gallon US barrel which will be 121.12 litres.

The US gallon is a relatively recent creation and, so far as the British Barrel is concerned, I have no idea where that came from! It's probably rather like and English Muffin - completely unknown in England!

[brewmonkey]

A US Barrel is measured as 31 USG and is called a BBL, and while it may mean British Barrel it has nothing to do with the sizes used overseas. We do not measure anything at 32 gallons.

We use

1 bbl= 31 USG
.5 bbl= 15.5 USG Standard Keg Size, American Straight Side Sanke
.25bbl= 7.5 USG commonly called a "Pony" keg or 1/4 bbl
1/6bbl= 5.16USG and is the size of a standard corny keg.

What we call an English muffin I believe you would call a crumpet, somebody probably did not think something called a "crumpet" would sell or did not sound as glamourous as "English Muffin" and away we go......

I will say this about some of my fellow American's, they can be sold ona product not because it is made well or even tastes good but rather on the marketing behind it. Yo Quero Taco Bell?

[toneyc]

Hmmmm, I *like* Taco Bell. I'll take Taco Bell over McDonalds any day. Mmmm, Taco Bell and homebrew, now there's a deadly combination.

:)
Toney.

[GunNut76]

So who was it who said that regular bottles with crown caps should probably be kept under 4 volumes of CO2?:confused: ...and yes I bottle condition...and yes when I start kegging I will keg/cask condition in fact I plan on buying a French and American Oak barrel. Mr. Monkey-bbl is not short for british barrel, at least it is not found in any homebrew references that I have. I do know that the abbreviation bbl has been used in conjunction with firearms for centuries...I know beer has been brewed longer than that, but I am just stating what I found. Could you point me in the direction of your definition please.

[Richard English]

Quote "...We do not measure anything at 32 gallons. ..."

As I said, I was quoting from memory and now I check the reference I saw (in the opinionated beer pages) did say 31 gallons. In the OED it simply says "...a measure of capacity, usually between 30 and 40 gallons..." So it looks as though there's even more variation than I had originally thought.

In England we have two kinds of crumpet - one we eat, that's true - but the other has quite different uses!

So don't ask for a bit of crumpet when you get to your hotel in London or you'll maybe get something you weren't expecting!

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by GunNut76
Mr. Monkey-bbl is not short for british barrel, at least it is not found in any homebrew references that I have. I do know that the abbreviation bbl has been used in conjunction with firearms for centuries...I know beer has been brewed longer than that, but I am just stating what I found. Could you point me in the direction of your definition please.

While the measurements themselves are not identical, it is the common abbreviation for British Barrel as used in the brewing industry as long as I have been a part of it and I am sure quite longer then that.

For your reading pleasure. (While the measurements themselves are not identical)

Maybe you should read more, or at least read something other then what Charlie has written for the homebrewers.

[danno]

brewmonkey, your link isn't any good...

[GunNut76]

Originally posted by brewmonkey

Maybe you should read more, or at least read something other then what Charlie has written for the homebrewers.


Charlie? Who is Charlie? Everything I have read has been on the web.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by GunNut76
So who was it who said that regular bottles with crown caps should probably be kept under 4 volumes of CO2?:confused: ...and yes I bottle condition...and yes when I start kegging I will keg/cask condition in fact I plan on buying a French and American Oak barrel. Mr. Monkey-bbl is not short for british barrel, at least it is not found in any homebrew references that I have. I do know that the abbreviation bbl has been used in conjunction with firearms for centuries...I know beer has been brewed longer than that, but I am just stating what I found. Could you point me in the direction of your definition please.

Charlie is no doubt Charlie Papazian, author of The Joy of Homebrewing.

Also, there are French, American, Hungarian etc. oak chips available from MoreBeer (and probably elsewhere, too), so you can use these instead of buying a wooden barrel, and having the headaches of trying to keep it clean, sanitized, etc.

[GunNut76]

Originally posted by GunNut76
Mr. Monkey-bbl is not short for british barrel, at least it is not found in any homebrew references that I have. I do know that the abbreviation bbl has been used in conjunction with firearms for centuries...I know beer has been brewed longer than that, but I am just stating what I found. Could you point me in the direction of your definition please.

I forgot one small word. This sentance should have read thusly:

Mr. Monkey-bbl is not short for british barrel, at least it is not found in any homebrew references that I have seen.

sorry about that.:o AIS in my post I have no books at home and everything I have read has been on the web.