How do you brew?

[brewmonkey]

Just out of curiosity...

When you brew are you an all grain, all extract or partial mash?

[Brownbeard]

I put a mix. I have been doing extreacts, but after doing the partial mash for my pumpkin and seeing how easy it was, I see myself doing a lot more grains in my brews.

[Payson]

I'm all grain almost 100% of the time. As far as Brownbeard's revelation that adding grains to extract is easy, I'd take that a step farther and say that not only is it easy, it improves it so much it is essential. Difference between a 100% extract and a partial marsh is huge.

[Brownbeard]

Well, I had steeped grains before, never realized how similar steeping and a partial mash were. Now I do not want to brew anything without it. I am doign a scotch ale this weekend with steeping grains only, but it is a proven recipe, so I am gonna go with it.

[OldHooky]

I started brewing just a couple of months ago. First 4 batches were extract, but I just bottled my first all grain recipe(Old Hooky clone). When I started, my goal was to brew all grain exclusively. I just like to know what ingredients are going into whatever I consume, be it beer or food. In addition, I really enjoyed the process. We'll see how this batch turns out, but I don't think I'll brew with extract again.

[b3s]

well, i was all-grain only for a while, then my gravity got all hosed and i turned out a couple of bad beers, so i went back to extract + partial mash...

now i think i've figured out that my mash technique was probably at fault and the bad beers were probably a combination of dry hopping for too long in high heat (was pretty warm here this summer)...so i'll probably resume all-grain again and see if i can get that right.

[Fast_Eddy]

All grain. It's the only way I can get the control that I want.

[toneyc]

I put extract only, even though I have done a couple of partial mashes. I am really curious about all-grain and will go watch Fast_Eddy brew next weekend and may then attempt it on my own. But as I said in the lager thread, why should I change when I've been so happy with what I'm doing? The big reason for me to go to all grain would be cost. All-grain recipes look like they are generally at least $4 cheaper per recipe. I am afraid of the increased complexity, additional equipment, and expanding vocabulary. We'll just have to wait and see about this all-grain thing.

:)
Toney.

[bigmf]

I voted for extract only, although I have done a couple of partial mashes. I'm stuck with little availability in my local area, so ingredients are hard to come by.

[ray m]

I switched to all-grain last winter and I love it----I've brewed some really good brews---probably my best yet. ToneyC---fear not the all-grain process. I used to be sceered and had no intentions of switching (like you, I was quite happy with my extract batches), but after I helped my neighbor do it, I decided to give it a try. You'll add a couple more hours to your brew day, but it really is easy.

Drink hearty!!! Up the irons!!!

Ray

P.S. Happy 300th!

[kevin]

Mostly extract here, I have done a couple of partial mash but l would like to learn how to do all grain brewing in the near future, then a kegging system and a bar in the basement etc etc etc...

[brewmonkey]

I started as an all grain brewer and have never done an extract. I have used it in some of the winter warmers I have done due to the fact that you can only cram so much malt into a mash tun.

Interesting to see that it is almost evenly split right now.

[wortchillergoal]

I don't do any allgrain because of time. I chose how to brew based on the time I have, extract ot partial. I know I could do the all grain, but I am happy with my beer so I shall stay. Maybe in 14 years or so, when my youngest turns 18, I will try all grain. I would do it if one of my boys would help so I would not lose my time with them. My ice time eats up alot of my brew time during the winter.

[S.F.B.]

Part mash. Haven't gone to all grain due to time. I don't usually hav the better part of a day to commit to a batch.

[mortong]

Originally posted by Brownbeard
Well, I had steeped grains before, never realized how similar steeping and a partial mash were. Now I do not want to brew anything without it. I am doign a scotch ale this weekend with steeping grains only, but it is a proven recipe, so I am gonna go with it.

What's the difference between the two?

I used to put my specialty grains in until it boiled. Now I steep them in about 1.5 gallons of water at 150-170 degrees for 20-30 minutes.

I'd thought that steeping your grains like that was the same as partial mash - am I wrong?

(edited for clarity)

[b3s]

in a way, they are the same. the primary difference is that specialty grains do not require mashing...but many grains do require it (like oatmeal, flaked barley, rye, etc.).

so a partial mash is a way of doing an extract recipe that uses grains you might not normally be able to use because they require mashing.

[brewmonkey]

Steeping is done with specialty grains like Cara-Pils, Caramel malt etc...

While a partial mash will have some base malt included.

And if I had continues to read I would have seen this already answered. D'oh!

[Brownbeard]

In my limited experience, the difference is basiacally time and temperature control. For partial mash you want to maintain 150-160 degrees for an hour, then sparge. For steeping, I do the same, add my grains to the cold water, bring to 160 degrees and leave it there for 15-20 minutes. I never bothered with sparging for steeping either.

[b3s]

well, to kinda sum up the difference between steeping and partial mash, check palmers table of mash efficiency (http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-4-1.html). only those grains that have a steep ppg are steepable. to use the others you must at least partial mash with at least some of the grain bill being a base malt for conversion. plus, typical steep efficiency is 40% or lower, while a mash efficiency is pretty easy to get up to 65% and with a small amount of effort, higher.

[toneyc]

It is my understanding that the primary difference between steeping and mashing is that steeping produces little or no fermentables, just flavor and mouth feel, whereas mashing is specifically to produce fermentables. Is that correct?

:)
Toney.

[b3s]

yes it is

[rocketman]

Extract only here. I'm with you Toney, I'd like to try all grain one of these days, but just don't have the desire for new equipment, and extra time just yet. I'd need to play with more recipes before I'd feel comfortable venturing out of the extract world. I'm in East TX, and if I had a good enough reason to go visit one of my buddies in Austin, I wouldn't mind watching some all-grainers so I could learn the process; it's probably much easier than reading about it in all the books and trying to figure it out come brewday.

[Beerconnoisseur]

I started off doing extract brews. I then moved to partial mash, and eventually jumped into all-grain.

I still like extract brews, simply for the greater consistency from batch to batch. Perhaps when I have some extra money, I will move to getting the professional equipment, and try all grain some more.

[Jughead]

I started with those hopped extract kits in a can that tell you to dump in several pounds of table sugar. Then I stumbled across Palmes How to Brew web site. I made the jump to all-grain and never looked back. I guess I missed out on the better extract beers, and partial mashes etc.

I've only seen one can of unhopped liquid extract in the city where I live, and dried extracts are really expensive here. Unless time becomes a problem for me, I'm sticking with all-grain.

Inconsistency with all-grain has never been a problem, since I've yet to attempt the same brew twice.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Jughead
...
Inconsistency with all-grain has never been a problem, since I've yet to attempt the same brew twice.

Inconsistency is NOT a problem with all grain if you are rigorous about what you do.

[GunNut76]

Is steeping SG considered partial mash?

[b3s]

no....partial mash would be bringing the grains up to temp (150F is good) for an your, then straining them out and sparging (pouring) 180F water on them. that releases the fermentables.

[Jughead]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
Inconsistency is NOT a problem with all grain if you are rigorous about what you do.

I agree. I don't think inconsistency with all-grain is a problem either. Rigorous attention to the process should give consistent results.

My personal style however, is not to be rigorous (except for cleaning). When it comes to mash schedules, if I'm off a bit, oh well. I've never made anything I didn't like. I suppose I'll get to the point where I want to fine tune my brews, but for now I'm in explore mode. I take good notes, and if I do stumble on the perfect beer, then maybe I'll start shooting for consistency.

Cheers Eddy!

[mortong]

One quick question for you all:

Do specialty grains (crystal, black and chocolate) contain the correct enzymes for mashing? I'm making an oatmeal stout in about an hour, and I hear that the oatmeal needs to be mashed if I want to extract fermentables. From what I understand I don't NEED to extract fermentables - just the taste is fine, but if mashing will improve my beer I'm all for it. =)

Thanks

[b3s]

from my understanding, for a mash, you need something like 50% of your bill as a base grain...2-row, 6-row, pale malt, wheat, etc.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by mortong
One quick question for you all:

Do specialty grains (crystal, black and chocolate) contain the correct enzymes for mashing? I'm making an oatmeal stout in about an hour, and I hear that the oatmeal needs to be mashed if I want to extract fermentables. From what I understand I don't NEED to extract fermentables - just the taste is fine, but if mashing will improve my beer I'm all for it. =)

Thanks

If I remember right, oatmeal doesn't have to be mashed. It's mostly added for the additional mouthfeel. As long as you have a different source of fermentable sugars (whether it be from base malt in all-grain, malt extract, or a combination of these), fermentation will proceed. It's a different story if you want to have wheat as a significant component of the grist... since it has no enzymes.

But, the short answer is: specialty grains generally don't have enough enzymes to convert starch to sugar. They're heated to create the different colors/flavors, and this occurs at temperatures far above where the enzymes begin to degrade.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Beerconnoisseur
If I remember right, oatmeal doesn't have to be mashed. It's mostly added for the additional mouthfeel. As long as you have a different source of fermentable sugars (whether it be from base malt in all-grain, malt extract, or a combination of these), fermentation will proceed. It's a different story if you want to have wheat as a significant component of the grist... since it has no enzymes.

But, the short answer is: specialty grains generally don't have enough enzymes to convert starch to sugar. They're heated to create the different colors/flavors, and this occurs at temperatures far above where the enzymes begin to degrade.

Wheat malt has as much or more diastatic power as 6-row barley malt. It does lack husks though.

The only pseudo specialty grains that can convert their own starches* is Vienna and Munich - although they're not really specialty grains since at times they make up huge proportions of a grain bill(munich in a bock for instance).

Some brewers do use malted oats to improve head retention and smoothness without having to worry about making the beer more cloudy. Unmalted oats can make beer cloudy as a result of protein content.

*Edit: used the word sugar when I should've used the word starch.

[b3s]

what about rolled or flaked oats? i know you have to mash for the fermentables if you want them, but will steeping those also aid in head retention? given my latest lack of success in mashing, i might go back to extract (again).

[Pappy]

I went back to an extract once last year out of convenience. I'll never do that again. Even with some of the frustrations I've encountered with all-grain, it's mostly just sweating over small stuff. Nearly every all-grain (maybe about 30 batches now) batch I've made has been really good in the end. I haven't had any real problem in consistency in the few occasions when I've been consistent (I'm always tweeking).

As far as cost, I'm now buying hops by the pound and managing to stretch yeast a long, long way. I'm guessing my 5-gallon batches range from 12-15 bucks a batch. That's a good thing since I'm unable to resist buying all kinds of new gadgets!

[mortong]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't realize specialty grains didn't produce many fermentables either.

What exactly does a partial mash add to the beer, if you already have flavors and fermentables (from the extract) without it.

Do you replace some of the extract with grains? That seems to be the most obvious answer.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by b3s
what about rolled or flaked oats? i know you have to mash for the fermentables if you want them, but will steeping those also aid in head retention? given my latest lack of success in mashing, i might go back to extract (again).

b3s your problem bothers me --- I wish I could help.

Are you using tap water? Distilled? Combination?

There are water types that can lead to very poor extraction from grain.

[b3s]

tap water....i have not done a pH test nor gotten a water report. i still suspect the problem to be a misperception of what my mash efficiency is :(

[Aleman]

Maybe you should provide your procedures for comment. My efficiency is 73% on almost all batches.

raise mash temp to 163 degrees
mash-in, drops temp to 153-155 degrees
mash for 90 minutes
run-off 20-30 minutes
sparge with 170 degree water for 45 minutes
boil 90 minutes
cool, rack to carboy, aerate, pitch yeast

[b3s]

ok, as requested....


bring liquor to 157F.
drink a beer
fill void in my zap-tap MLT with liquor.
add 1/4 grain bill, cover with liquor, repeat until all grain is in MLT and consistency is porridge like or even more wet.
mash until starch conversion successful...if having difficulty with particles in the wort, i'll run off and re-add to establish a grain bed...i will then bring the temp of the run-off back to temp with boiling water and re-add.
drink a beer
heat sparging water to 180F
run off (took a good 20 minutes).
sparge at the slowest rate possible to keep the sparge arm rotating. stop when the brewpot is full.
bring wort to boil until hot break
drink a beer
add hops and start my 60 minute timer to go off every 15 minutes.
cool wort, run-off into carboy, pitch yeast, store in my brew closet.
drink a few more beers

[Aleman]

ah-ha

too much beer while brewing. I never mix drinking with brewing.

How do you know that the starch conversion is complete? Iodine test?

I also do a 90 minute boil which would yield a higher starting gravity.

[brewmonkey]

You should add foundation water to your tun first, enough so that it comes about 1" above the false bottom and then add your grist.

Sparge liquor should not be above 172F.

An iodine test is not needed for most mashes is not needed. With the modification of the malts today most have conversion in about 15-30 minutes even at the lower end of the spectrum. If you have held your temp for about 45 minutes or longer you should be golden. Checking is nice though.

Most of the mashes I conduct are done for 30-45 minutes before I recirculate which I do until the wort runs clear (20-40 minutes) and then start my sparge at mash temp and raise it until I am at 172 degrees (an idea I swiped from Miller brewing of all places). I sparge/lauter for about 1 hour +/- 10 minutes and collect 15% above the recipe or until pH drops or gravity is below 2.5 whichever is first.

My kettle is notorius for huge evaporation rates so I generally have to throttle back the boil or risk an increase in gravity and carmelization.