Widmer Hefeweizen

[Rabies]

Widmer Brothers is from Portland, Oregon. I got a 6 pack of their Hefeweizen at a grocery in Texas.

The bottle is brown with their logo made into the glass. I'll keep an empty just for that.

The label says "uncompromised & unfiltered". I believe the unfiltered part. This Hefeweizen wheat is cloudy, opaque off white. There is stuff settled at the bottom of each bottle. Invert and gently swirl.

It has a tart tang to it that stays with ya like a Hefeweizen does. It's got a crispness to it.

I like it.

[Arassuil]

Yeah that is a pretty common tap in the Pacific Northwest.
I see that Widmer and Red Hook have merged.....

[RimChamps]

I was surprised to find it on tap at Buffalo Wild Wings in Amarillo. I have it on tap in my BBQ joint. The new limited Edition Crimson Wheat is also very good on tap.

[eric138]

I finally tried it recently. Unfortunately, I had just tried Paulaner Heff a few days before. The Widmer seemed like just another A-B product to me.

[Mill Rat]

I've had the widmer hefeweizen and found it underwhelming. Maybe that's because I like the German weizens and the far more neutral left coast yeast doesn't provide the character I expect in a weizen.

[skahtboi]

I've had the widmer hefeweizen and found it underwhelming.

That line describes all of Widmer's beers to me, with the exception of Broken Halo. While it is not the best IPA on the market, it is at least true to the style, and very drinkable.

Their Hefe tastes little more than mud to me, with just a hint of beer flavor in there. There is a restaurant near here that used to have it on tap, but I think that they couldn't even sell the beer geeks on it. They replaced it with Shiner Hefe.

[dparsons]

I've had the widmer hefeweizen and found it underwhelming. Maybe that's because I like the German weizens and the far more neutral left coast yeast doesn't provide the character I expect in a weizen.

Gotta use a good yeast in a Weizen. That is most of the flavor, with hops providing a mild complement and the malt the backdrop.

[BrewDog]

Yes, they are different. The west coast American wheat yeast has a much lower phenol and ester profile. I enjoy both for what they are. In my mind, this is like beating up on American Pale Ale because IPA's are hoppier, or saying Helles is crap because Pilsner is more bitter.

[Mill Rat]

In my mind, this is like beating up on American Pale Ale because IPA's are hoppier, or saying Helles is crap because Pilsner is more bitter. Just offering my opinion. Someone who's accustomed to the west coast wheat beers might find the German weizen yeast flavors overwhelming in an unpleasant way.

[wortchillergoal]

Have any of you had the Saranac Hefe? I was wondering how you see it compared to Widmer? I find both to be drinkable. I also see both brewers as producers of stepping stone beers. They may not be true to style or the best example of style, but they are nice beers to help start the conversion of a BMC drinker.

[steveh]

In my mind, this is like beating up on American Pale Ale because IPA's are hoppier, or saying Helles is crap because Pilsner is more bitter.

But that's not the criticism I carry for American "Hefe"weizens -- the majority are just plain bland. They're a step up from macros and a step below a good Bitter or Helles and they bastardized the definition of Hefeweizen.

S.

[darylM]

i always thought that wheat malt does not have as much flavor as barley malt and they are not as hoppy as normal beers. This is why weizen yeast was developed to add more flavor to the beer.

[steveh]

and they are not as hoppy as normal beers. This is why weizen yeast was developed to add more flavor to the beer.

Huh? Not as hoppy as normal beers? So, Doppelbocks, Oktoberfests, Porters and Imperial Stouts aren't "normal" I suppose?

And since weizen yeast was "developed" sometime in the 13th century, I'd say the Weihenstephan people probably weren't all that concerned with adding more flavor to beer, but maybe harnessing the distinct character being created by their unique ingredient.

But of course, I know you probably mean the "American" wheat yeast, but I don't think that's anything specifically different than a cleaner ale yeast.

S.

[darylM]

Huh? Not as hoppy as normal beers? So, Doppelbocks, Oktoberfests, Porters and Imperial Stouts aren't "normal" I suppose?

And since weizen yeast was "developed" sometime in the 13th century, I'd say the Weihenstephan people probably weren't all that concerned with adding more flavor to beer, but maybe harnessing the distinct character being created by their unique ingredient.

But of course, I know you probably mean the "American" wheat yeast, but I don't think that's anything specifically different than a cleaner ale yeast.

S.

"Normal" was a bad word choice. I still keep with developed because of human's ability to change the environment, purposely or otherwise.

Yes, American wheat beers with American wheat yeast leave me lacking. If it's a cleaner yeast at fault, so be it.

[steveh]

Yes, American wheat beers with American wheat yeast leave me lacking. If it's a cleaner yeast at fault, so be it.

From BJCP under American Wheat or Rye Beer:
Ingredients: Clean American ale yeast, but also can be made as a lager. Large proportion of wheat malt (often 50% or more, but this isn’t a legal requirement as in Germany). American or noble hops. American Rye Beers can follow the same general guidelines, substituting rye for some or all of the wheat.

Of note is their commercial examples list, 2 of which I can attest are good drinkers, four that I'll put under my underwhelming definition (the rest I've never tried):
Bell’s Oberon, Harpoon UFO Hefeweizen, Three Floyds Gumballhead, Pyramid Hefe-Weizen, Widmer Hefeweizen, Sierra Nevada Unfiltered Wheat Beer, Anchor Summer Beer, Redhook Sunrye, Real Ale Full Moon Pale Rye

The point here is, the practice of calling American Wheats "Hefeweizen" is a HUGE misnomer propagated by Widmer and Pyramid in the early 90s. The 2 styles are far apart in character -- and enjoyment IMO.

Somewhere Lew Bryson speaks to this misinterpretation, I'll see if I can find the essay to post.

S.

[btsager]

Widmer's Hefe is actually one of my all time favorites, There seems to be alot of uninformed speculation on this thread. You all should read up on the history of the Widmer Bros. One of them lived in Germany for some years and studied under a German brew master, their Hefe uses a German Yeast that they brought back to America(Not an American Yeast). They where one of the if not the first to mass produce a Hefeweizen in America and its popularity nation wide is a good indication that it is a wonderful beer. I have never found any other Hefe made in America that even comes close to it. I do enjoy most of the German Hefe's more, but that in no way makes my enjoyment of Widmer's any less.

[skahtboi]

I, for one, am not arguing the Widmer Bros. creditials. However, I have found their Hefe, and for that matter Drop Top Ale, to be at best, pedestrian. This is simply using my palate as my judge, not the education or travels or potential of the company nor its proprietors. Perhaps their beer has a pedestrian appeal because they are seeking to appeal to the most common element. I don't know.

I have gone on record here as defending their Broken Halo IPA, which, for my money, is far and away the best beer they brew.

[btsager]

I will admit I am not positive what you mean by 'pedestrian' but I THINK you are saying that they as a company are trying to make their beer appealing to many people so they can sell more. And I just have to say, why would they not? I mean its a business, to put a company down or say their beer is not good because they are trying to make beer that alot of people will like and buy is just dumb. If it weren't for pioneers like Widmer Bros, our country would have alot less beer available for us to enjoy.

If you base your like or dislike of a beer based on the company who brewed it and their business practices, then you are not a true "Beer Lover".

[steveh]

I will admit I am not positive what you mean by 'pedestrian'

I think he actually means boring. But if you say Skaht shouldn't judge based on business practices, why do you defend Widmer from that standpoint?

All you need do is sample a Widmer Hefeweizen alongside a Hacker-Pschorr Hefeweizen and you'll see the difference in style and flavor we're all talking about. Comparatively, the Widmer pales in character.

S.

[btsager]

I didn't defend Widmer. I only pointed out some details that people seemed to be very uninformed about and hence caused them to make inaccurate judgments about the beer they where critiquing.

And then I pointed out the absurdity of saying a beer is bad because the brewers are trying to make money selling it.

I like to consider myself a true beer lover, my work takes me all over the country so I have had the chance to try many different beers and I am lucky enough to have a store in my town that imports alot of beer from other countries as well.

I find it amusing that some of the people on this board will put down a beer because they don't like it or they like some other brewers version of it better. I have rarely tried a beer I would consider "undrinkable" and only because I think it was actually rotten.

I enjoy beer for what it is and because it can be so versatile. I would tell others that if you find so many beers that you dislike, maybe beer is not the beverage for you.

[steveh]

I find it amusing that some of the people on this board will put down a beer because they don't like it or they like some other brewers version of it better.

90% of this board is viewpoint (opinion, if you will) on different beers. Hardly do any actually get "put down" unless it's utter swill. OTOH, most of us recognize good beer when we drink it and understand that some are, head & shoulders, better than the rest.

The style of the American Hefeweizen developed in the late 1980s and early 1990s -- mostly as a gimmick, it would seem, with the suspended yeast in a similar form as the centuries old Bavarian Hefeweizen. The unfortunate aside to the American style is that the name attracted many (me included) because we were (very) familiar with the Bavarian style. To our surprise, the newer beer was little more than a bland cross between a pale ale and am American Light Lager -- uninspiring and rather demeaning to the style whose name it "borrowed."

That said, is it the worst thing to come out of an American brewery? Of course not. There are just many better beers to choose from when you peruse the shelves or step up to the bar.

S.

*Edit: FYI, from the Widmer web site itself, yes -- they use a German yeast, but it's not a Hefeweizen yeast, it's an Altbier yeast -- a strain that is quite different from that used in traditional Bavarian Weizens.

[Arassuil]

I have rarely tried a beer I would consider "undrinkable" and only because I think it was actually rotten.
I'll bring you a bottle of Victoria Bitter....

I suppose I'd have liked the Widmer Hefe better if the barkeeps didn't drop a wedge of citrus fruit into it or squeeze it over the edge of the glass. Its not bad without the fruit, but its one of those beers I'll order if the tap selection at the pub is Bud/Miller/Coors/Pabt's, etc. Usually a Red Hook tap will be found among them along with a Widmer Hefe one, and I opt for the Red Hook over it.

[Mill Rat]

A lot of this comes down to what you are expecting. One of the challenges in judging beer is to evaluate the entries based on the category in which they're entered. I would prefer not to judge American hefes because I know as soon as I hear "hefe" my taste buds expect the clove and banana phenolics of the German hefes. If I had to evaluate American hefes I'd have to review what I should be expecting to find, and judge against that written standard. If someone accustomed to American hefes had to judge Geman hefes, then they'd have to set aside their preferences and accept the prominent yeast phenolics as a desired part of the style rather than a fault.

Once we get away from trying to evaluate beers impartially, we're more than welcome to state our preference, and I'm with steveh here in that, having become accustomed to German hefes, (with thanks to my grandfather and Milwaukee's greatly missed John Ernst restaurant for that), I find the american hefes underwhelming. My opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[skahtboi]

I think he actually means boring. But if you say Skaht shouldn't judge based on business practices, why do you defend Widmer from that standpoint?

All you need do is sample a Widmer Hefeweizen alongside a Hacker-Pschorr Hefeweizen and you'll see the difference in style and flavor we're all talking about. Comparatively, the Widmer pales in character.

S.

That is exactly what I mean. Pedestrian. Common. Boring. Also, my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[PsychoBrew]

I have had quite a few of these, but find that I prefer the Pyramid Hefe over this one. I do have to agree with many of the posters though - the hefes here in the NW seem pretty flatline after you have tasted many of them. I even prefer my simple hombrew hefe to some of these due to the grain flaver thats present in it. Just my taste buds I guess. I had a Paulaner Hefe-Weizen that I liked a bit better than the NW hefe that I have purchased. Thats speaking of only bottled other than my home brew.

[chazwicke]

I didn't defend Widmer. I only pointed out some details that people seemed to be very uninformed about and hence caused them to make inaccurate judgments about the beer they where critiquing.

And then I pointed out the absurdity of saying a beer is bad because the brewers are trying to make money selling it.

I like to consider myself a true beer lover, my work takes me all over the country so I have had the chance to try many different beers and I am lucky enough to have a store in my town that imports alot of beer from other countries as well.

I find it amusing that some of the people on this board will put down a beer because they don't like it or they like some other brewers version of it better. I have rarely tried a beer I would consider "undrinkable" and only because I think it was actually rotten.

I enjoy beer for what it is and because it can be so versatile. I would tell others that if you find so many beers that you dislike, maybe beer is not the beverage for you.

I have never been a fan of Widmer hefe. It is bland and boring. Why it is so popular is beyond me. I find it to be a step above the macros. I also have never liked the sliced lemon gimmick. IIRC there was a company that was bidding on the marketing contract for Widmer and they asked opinions here on realbeer. I think they won the contract as well. I think that thread expressed the feelings of most beer geeks with regard to Widmer hefe. Give me an Oberon any day.

[wortchillergoal]

I have to agree with the train of thought that believes Widmer is chasing just the market they want. There is nothing wrong with that practice. I am not a big fan of Widmer but look on it a little better than moat here. I would order it if that were the only choice other than BMC at an eatery,
Now as to choosing a beer based on business practices I offer this. Even if AB started making great beer, I would not buy it unless they apologized to several microbrewers for their underhanded attacks in a public fashion.

[mrtrav]

Widmer and Pyramid Hefe's are the perfect step for those people addicted to macros to get them to come over to the micro side. They aren't the best beers on the market, but they are still pretty good. They don't hug to the extreme side of anything which is a good hook to get people into the micro world.

[redlem]

I dont understand the point of view that based on history of the brewery and popularity of a beer that we must like and appreciate it? Well pick any BMC product because they are the most popular and purchased of any beer but jsut because technically it is a finely produced beer does not mean it has any flavor or aroma. And historically up until about 6 years ago Redhook ESB was a really good flavorful beer(listed in MJ's book of beers), but now it is a colorless, flavorless crappy beer. I can respect the history of it but that does not mean I will buy it ever again.

IMO I think there are only a handful of authentic America Hefe's produced and WI probably makes the most and best of those, see New Glarus and Capital. Most of them are actually American wheats, granted it is just a name but to be a hefe it needs to have a strong banana/bubblegum/clove aroma and most of the American ones smell mainly of bread. Ive had the Widmer and it relates most closely to Leinies Sunset Wheat, a decent beer but not one I would ever direct someone to try as a hefe. Again IMO.

[newportstorm]

And historically up until about 6 years ago Redhook ESB was a really good flavorful beer(listed in MJ's book of beers), but now it is a colorless, flavorless crappy beer.

Hardly colorless or flavorless. Compared to 6 years ago? Can't say, as I can't recall with any certainty what anything tasted like six years ago - my tastes and preferences have changed. Exposure to new beers & styles change and color our palate.

You may not enjoy the ESB today, but has it really changed or have your tastes?

[steveh]

but now it is a colorless, flavorless crappy beer.

Gotta agree with Newport on this one, hardly colorless or flavorless. One of my favorite fall-back beers to have around.

IMO I think there are only a handful of authentic America Hefe's produced and WI probably makes the most and best of those, see New Glarus and Capital.

Unfortunately, Capital has retired the Hefeweizen. OTOH, Sprecher still makes theirs and it's a great Bavarian Weizen.

S.

[redlem]

Hardly colorless or flavorless. Compared to 6 years ago? Can't say, as I can't recall with any certainty what anything tasted like six years ago - my tastes and preferences have changed. Exposure to new beers & styles change and color our palate.

You may not enjoy the ESB today, but has it really changed or have your tastes?


Sure palates change but so do breweries. In 2004, at the 10 year point of their alliance with AB, Redhook was in severe financial troubles which happened to be at the same time when AB could pull out of their contract with Redhook. Were concessions made, well that was when they went from the short-neck to the long-neck bottle as the most noticable difference. Also the ESB went from and this is from my notes " a brillant red/ orange color with a medium dense head" , to the long-neck version which notices that it now " light oak color with a head that has huge bubbles and quickly disappears".
Even if my palate changed, and there are many beers that I drank then that I still enjoy today, my eyes have not gone downhill that much. It was one of my favorite beers and one I drank quite a bit of but not since 05.

[newportstorm]

If any recipes were changed, I don't know if it had to do with making concessions for AB. From what I've been told (by those that would know), AB doesn't set foot in the brewhouse.

[steveh]

AB doesn't set foot in the brewhouse.

Very true, and while there may be a change in the beer from the past (I've heard the RH guys heard a lot of flack about the diactetyl character in the ESB), that still didn't result in a colorless and flavorless beer.

S.

[steveh]

...but not since 05.

3 years is a long time to be away and still make such a vehement opinion.

S.