My first lager

[joejoe]

I have brewed many ales over the last year or so with great success and am now onto my first lager. Being in Minnesota allows me to have a pretty stable temperature in my garage of about 40-50 degrees. Is this too cold for primary and secondary temp for a lager? Should I keep the lager in the secondary for a couple of months or just go by the gravity? Is it really even worth the trouble to brew a lager? Seems like a lot of waiting for a lager when I can brew an ale and be drinking it 6 weeks from initial boil.
Any lager advice is definitely appreciated.
________
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[BucksBrew]

My first Beer that I made was a Lager, a Pilsner Urquell Clone.

It was great!!! I've read that Lagers are the delicate little sister to the brutish older brother Ale. I guess it's like champagne to beer.

You need to make more than one beer. I made the Lager than made an Ale to drink while I waited. Let it age, be patient. I wasn't and had it consumed before the 8 weeks were up!

Get some inventory going! I made one batch at a time when I started. I didn't want to have 2-5 batches of bad beer if I screwed it up. But now I am confident and am building up an inventory for the Holidays. I have an Ale version of the Pilsner Urquell aging and a British Imperial Stout Fermenting. I will save the stout for Xmas.

BTW
You don't want more than a 12 degree daily swing in temps with either an Ale or Lager while aging or fermenting.

[matchbox1507]

You don't want more than a 12 degree daily swing in temps with either an Ale or Lager while aging or fermenting.

This statment makes me wonder if I have done something wrong. All I have brewed up till now is ales. After kegging, I throw the keg in the frig and chill it down to about 40deg. No waiting or slow cooling. I charge it with CO2 and let it sit for 12 hours or so then shake it, let it sit.....

Should I be cooling it slowly?

Thanks Tony

[paul84043]

I made two lagers, a Corona clone, and a Nut brown ale with an Oktoberfest yeast.
They take a long time and the finished product, though good, is bland compared to the ales (for my tastes). I like the complexity and full flavor the ales give you.
I personally don't think they're worth it.

One way to keep your temp swings down would be to put your fermenter in an icebox or a refrigerator in your garage, that should slow them down considerably.

You shouldn't have a problem cooling off your kegs after all is said and done, you just want to control your temp swings while actively fermenting.

[BucksBrew]

Originally posted by matchbox1507
This statment makes me wonder if I have done something wrong. All I have brewed up till now is ales. After kegging, I throw the keg in the frig and chill it down to about 40deg. No waiting or slow cooling. I charge it with CO2 and let it sit for 12 hours or so then shake it, let it sit.....

Should I be cooling it slowly?

Thanks Tony

I remember reading during the primary and secondary time you should not let the temp sway more than 12 degrees in a 24 hr. period. That is why you should not use a garage or tool shed for this.

When the product is finished I believe you are ok to get it down to drinking or lagering temperature as quickly as possible. That's what I do. I stick it in the fridge!

I'll check it out but I think I'm 99% right.

[Pappy]

What is the result of too much of a temperature swing?

[toneyc]

I agree muchly with Paul. I brewed one lager and will probably never brew another one. I dunno, I guess one can never say never, but I do not see another lager in my near future. Not when I am so happy with ales.

:)
Toney.

[BucksBrew]

Originally posted by Pappy
What is the result of too much of a temperature swing?

I think it shocks the yeast in the primary and the secondary might just produce off flavors. Other than the intended flavors.

St. Pats site:

Diacetyl Rest
Diacetyl is a chemical byproduct of fermentation which enhances the smoothness of beer and whose flavor is similar to butterscotch, butter, or vanilla. These are desirable flavors in some beers but not in most lagers. There are 3 ways to control diacetyl. The most common is 'diacetyl rest', the process of warming the lager to 60°F for 1 day immediately after primary fermentation. Yeast enzymes catalyze the reaction of diacetyl to nearly tasteless products. Czech brewers do not use diacetyl rest but rather one of two other means. Czechs use 1)krausening (adding fresh worth with yeast to fermenting beer), typically 3-5% but as high as 10% (added when transferring to lagering tank) or 2)reduced pressure in lagering tank to control diacetyl. Interestingly, ales can also benefit from a diacetyl rest on occasion. Fullers in London puts all of their ales through a diacetyl rest by actually lowering the temperature from 20°C to 16-17°C for one day. However, Fullers ferments under unusually high pressure (20 psi) which leads to high diacetyl.

[paul84043]

Don't let our opinions on Lagers put you off of brewing one, if aquiring the equipment isn't beyond he realm of possibility, I would highly recommend that you make one and decide for yourself.
Lagers are very popular and that's for a reason, lots of people really like them.
I liked mine too, it just wasn't worth the time and trouble when there are so many fantastic ales out there waiting to be brewed.

I really see no reason to brew another lager, but if I decide to, I know that I can.

[rocketman]

Originally posted by BucksBrew

I have an Ale version of the Pilsner Urquell aging


BucksBrew,

That sounds good, I've always wanted to try a Pilsner Urquell clone, but also haven't done lagers yet. How'd you make the ale version?... DME?...yeast?...would this significantly cut down on the lagering time?

[BucksBrew]

Originally posted by rocketman
BucksBrew,

That sounds good, I've always wanted to try a Pilsner Urquell clone, but also haven't done lagers yet. How'd you make the ale version?... DME?...yeast?...would this significantly cut down on the lagering time?

I'm only using Extract Kits right now. So I'm using a malt extract for this, but have used DME in the past.

The Czech Pilsner I got from Annapolis Homebrew. They give you enough ingredients to make the beer. If you need 9lbs. of extract, you get it, if it's 7lbs. you get it.

It fermented for about 10 days! Since I started whisking and pumping foam into my wort, the fermentation and attenuation has skyrocketed!

Then I'll rack it to a secondary for 7-10 days, keg it, chill it, carbonate it and it's ready to drink in a day or two.

In fact I'm drinking it now, tastes great!

[paul84043]

That's one thing I like about Annapolis, you get the ingredients you need, not just what will fit in the box. If you need more, they give you a bigger box.

I've done more than a couple kits from Annapolis and all have come out great.

Austin Homebrew is the same. So was St. Pats.

There are lots of places that just give you quantities based on the standard container sizes.

I started using Oxygen after my second or third batch, so I really have nothing to compare my ferments to and I'm not brave enough to do a few without it just to see the difference.
I just take everyone elses opinions into account and assume that it helps....
I know my ferments kick of fast and go very well compared to what others here say thiers do.

[BucksBrew]

[i

I started using Oxygen after my second or third batch, so I really have nothing to compare my ferments to and I'm not brave enough to do a few without it just to see the difference.
I just take everyone elses opinions into account and assume that it helps....
I know my ferments kick of fast and go very well compared to what others here say thiers do. [/B]

I was going to purchase the O2 and stone, but I got the idea to whisk the wort and what a difference. My lag time improved 1000% and attenuation is so great I stopped taking Hydro readings!
It also saves me from having to buy additional equipment. Which for me the less the better due to storage space. Plus less to sterilize.

BTW, how long due you blast the wort with O2?

[chris1kanobi]

I am building a lagering box in my garage this afternoon. The temps in Denver do swing, that is why I am building it next to an insulated inside wall. I am also keeping the carboy from direct floor contact. I filled a carboy with water and watched the temp for about a week now. It changes by about 4 deg. from night to day and stays about 56 deg. The dark, secluted area that I have chosen does not get heat from any where, no sunlight, and no exposure to outside air (a cooler of sorts). I am going to make a California Common for the first batch, so the temps can swing a bit more than most. This style is also ready a bit sooner than most lagers (arguably an ale, brewed at lager temps). I can also use this area for cold conditioning my ales. I will post pics and results.

[paul84043]

Bucks,
I run the O2 for about a minute (while stirring the wort around) with enough of a flow to create a good stream of superfine bulbbles, but not splash the wort around.
That's one of the great benefits of this method, the sheer amount and tiny size of the oxygen bubbles created are ideal for this application.
I have heard that you can overdo it as well, pure oxygen is a great antibacterial, so a minute is the recommended amount for a 5 gallon batch.
The only equipment is the bottle, a small tube and the stone.
I throw the stone into some boiling water every few batches for about 5 minutes. Other than that, I just toss it into the sanitizing solution and let it sit at the bottom until I need it. When I hook it to the oxygen bottle, I let the oxygen push the solution out of the tube before dunking it into the wort. It gets rinsed off immediately after removing from the wort and goes into one of my buckets with the rest of the brewing stuff.
The Oxygen bottle sits on a shelf in the basement or garage, wherever I leave it.
I have made over 30 batches with one bottle with no sign of running out any time soon.

[snakesandstuff]

As far as temp swings... why not do this:

Just insulate the fermenter.... Go and buy some styrofoam insulation (like you'd use for shipping temp sensitive items). Then just build a styrofoam cooler around your fermenter (of course, you couldn't seal it completely as you need to allow gas to escape). This would slow down the effect of temp change from the outside world. And might make temps stable enough to do such a thing in a garage or shed.

Just a thought.

[paul84043]

I have been on this thread saying that I won't do another lager unless I find a specific reason.....well....
I ordered three kits from AHS. A Guiness Extra CLone, a Pete's Wicked signature Pilsener, and a Fat Tire Amber Ale Clone.

Well....duh....the pilsener is a lager.

Guess I'll be doing another one anyway.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by paul84043
I have been on this thread saying that I won't do another lager unless I find a specific reason.....well....
I ordered three kits from AHS. A Guiness Extra CLone, a Pete's Wicked signature Pilsener, and a Fat Tire Amber Ale Clone.

Well....duh....the pilsener is a lager.

Guess I'll be doing another one anyway. \

So I guess the specific reason is that you ordered a pilsner kit. Seems straight forward enough.

[paul84043]

I was having so much fun looking at kits to buy, it never even clicked....I would probably have passed it up for another ale kit, I'm trying to build up my stores again after the summer...
I brewed it up last night and it's happily bubbling away right now. I'll give it the rest of the day and move it into the basement tonight to begin cooling down, then tomorrow night it's into the fridge for a couple of months.
I'm sure it will be good, but they take up a fermenter for so long...

I timed how long it took to cool 4 gallons from boiling to 80F. 4 minutes even.
Not bad.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by paul84043
I timed how long it took to cool 4 gallons from boiling to 80F. 4 minutes even.
Not bad.

How did you manage that?

[paul84043]

That just using my copper coil immersion chiller.
Our water temp hasn't even really dropped yet, so as winter hits, it should get even better.