Who does/doesn't use a starter?

[snyder66]

I'm just getting back into brewing again. I'm wondering who out there uses a starter and who doesn't and what results each group has attained. My biggest frustration previously was brewing beers that did not taste good and I'm trying to pin down the reason. Thanks. Erik

[markaberrant]

I think starters (or rehydrating dry yeast) are absolutely essential to brewing consistently good beer.

I seriously debated not using a starter on my last batach, a Hefeweizen, as the 3068 yeast is notorious for being fast and agressive, this style does well with increased ester production, and my gravity was a modest 1.050. I decided to go ahead and make the starter anyways, and boy am I glad I did, as the smack pack only swelled slightly, that isn't nearly enough viable yeast to be tossing into 5 gallons of wort. Even with a 2 gal starter, it took upwards of 8 hours to get going.

[JayShaw91]

Of my three batches (read: very limited experience), the two times I used White Labs I just pitched it straight. The Wyeast suggested a starter and I did one.

The first White Labs was a Scotch Ale and fermentation took about 36 hours to get going. No starter. Since this guy was a pretty high gravity, I think it may have benefitted from a starter.

Second batch was a Wit with the Wyeast starter. That bubbled aggressively and within 12 hours it was rocking and rolling.

Third batch was back to White Labs using the English Cider yeast. No starter, and holy crap is that stuff active!

I've been told that Wyeast you should always do the starter and WL you don't need it. My reason for posting how things went was to let you know that if using White Labs, I've been successful without a starter, but the next time I do a HG beer, I'll probably do a starter if I use White Labs.

[belsonc]

Originally posted by markaberrant

I seriously debated not using a starter on my last batach, a Hefeweizen, as the 3068 yeast is notorious for being fast and agressive, this style does well with increased ester production, and my gravity was a modest 1.050. I decided to go ahead and make the starter anyways, and boy am I glad I did, as the smack pack only swelled slightly, that isn't nearly enough viable yeast to be tossing into 5 gallons of wort. Even with a 2 gal starter, it took upwards of 8 hours to get going. [/B]

Mark -

FWIW, I used a smack pack in my other recipe - the one from the thread on the recipes board - and it barely swelled, either... you didn't get it from Midwest, did you?

[Mill Rat]

I always use starters or rehydrate dry yeast for my brews, or if I can plan ahead a little, I'll brew a "flight of 2-4 brews with one yeast cake, making a starter for the first and letting the yeast cake racket through the others. I have found that while White Labs tubes will eventually get going on straight pitch right out of the tube, making a starter results in a much quicker fermentation, better attenuation, and fewer off-flavors.

Depending on how long ago you brewed and with what equipment, there's been much experience gained by the homebrewing community in the last decade that will benefit you. For instance, a decade ago, you were advised to steep your specialty grains in the brew water until the water boiled. Now you are advised to not let the water temperature get above 70 C (170 F) while the grains are in there, as higher temperature extract astringent tannins from the grain husks.

If you were brewing with Mr. Beer or a similar kit, you will not make better than mediocre brews if you follow the manufacturers directions. We can help you go "off-road" with your own ingredients and use such a kit to make much better beer.

Finally, there are now brew calculator programs such as Promash and Beersmith that take a lot of the numerical drudgery out of formulating beer recipes, and the licenses for these programs are on the order of only $25. All of my brews, even the ones that I brew off of someone else's recipe, get run through this sort of software package. This is probably the one investment that has made more difference in my ability to produce a wide variety of quality brews than any other.

[ClaudiusB]

The first White Labs was a Scotch Ale and fermentation took about 36 hours to get going. No starter. Since this guy was a pretty high gravity
One tube of White Labs or Wyeast is not enough for high gravity.
If you use both brands under the same conditions the act the same.

I believe in starters.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

[BrewDog]

I try to use a starter whenever I can. I recently built a stir plate so now I have no excuses -- building a homemade gadget raises the chances that I'll want to use it. :D

[ClaudiusB]

@BrewDog
building a homemade gadget raises the chances that I'll want to use it.

Did you also include an aeration system?
Yeast needs oxygen to grow, or you end up just with a fermented beverage.

I love to build gadgets.

Cheers,
Claudiusb

[wortchillergoal]

I very rarely use a starter. It was the way I was taught. I am happy with my beer, so I don't change my ways.

When I have used a starter, the lag time is much less. I use Wyeast products. I do smack them 24 to 48 hours before I brew. If I forget to do so, I smack it and then put it over a small heat source of some type. That causes the yeast to work faster and swell the package nicely.

[Indytom]

I have just recently discovered "Basic Brewing Radio" podcasts. I believe that it was on one of those from the archives that I heard the guy from Wyeast (Logsdon?) say that the new smack pack now provides around 100 billion cells and that for a 5 gallon batch, that would be the recomended rate even for a professional brewer.

I used my first smack-pack today for my tropical fruit melomel. I smacked the pack around 10:00 this morning. My sons and I went out for lunch and to pick up some spring water from the grocery. When I came home, I was afraid the smack pack was about to explode. It was hard to the touch. I quickly put my must together ( I am using the no heat method on this mead) and pitched the yeast. I am sitting here looking at the carboy just 6 hours after pitching and I have 10 bubbles a minute in the airlock. I am very impressed. By the way, when I looked more closely at the label of the smack pack, it had a packaging date of 28 Aug 2007. This pack is only 3 weeks old. I love my LHBS.


As long as I keep getting these kinds of results, I don't think I am going to be using a starter.

Tom

[ClaudiusB]

I very rarely use a starter. It was the way I was taught. I am happy with my beer, so I don't change my ways.
A starter is never required as long we pitch enough yeast cells.
Most homebrewer in my opinion don't pitch the required amount.

Thanks to the new Wyeast pack as per IndyTom's post we can do better.

I need to do starters, I grow my own yeast.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

[M.K. Jeeves]

I made my first starter recently for a wee heavy, I used an 8oz bottle of Malta Goya; A South American malt beverage, and a package of safbrew T58. There was a definite difference when I pitched the yeast. I don't usually need a blow off tube but this batch practically spontaneously combusted. Vigorous fermentation is putting it mildly. I left it about a week and a half in the primary, and two weeks in the secondary, then bottled. Both times I racked I noticed a healthier yeast cake than I am used to, (should have saved some in retrospect). I think I'll use a starter from now on.

[Tom C]

for each batch, i make a half to three quarter gallon starte with about a half lb dme. my batches kick off in two to four hours after pitching. now i have to learn how to split these and save them for later use.

Tom C

[belsonc]

Originally posted by M.K. Jeeves
I made my first starter recently for a wee heavy, I used an 8oz bottle of Malta Goya; A South American malt beverage, and a package of safbrew T58. There was a definite difference when I pitched the yeast. I don't usually need a blow off tube but this batch practically spontaneously combusted. Vigorous fermentation is putting it mildly. I left it about a week and a half in the primary, and two weeks in the secondary, then bottled. Both times I racked I noticed a healthier yeast cake than I am used to, (should have saved some in retrospect). I think I'll use a starter from now on.



So... yeah, definitely intrigued by this. A starter based on a malt beverage? Mind posting a little more detail? :-)

I might try this way once, if only out of curiosity. :-)

[wild]

I either make starters or pitch a vial or dry on a small beer then rack onto the yeast cake. Today I brewed an Irish Red Rye and next week I'll brew and dump my Obsidian Stout Clone on the yeast cake. Then the following week I'll brew and dump my Espresso Stout on that Yeast cake.

Wild

[markaberrant]

Originally posted by belsonc
Mark -

FWIW, I used a smack pack in my other recipe - the one from the thread on the recipes board - and it barely swelled, either... you didn't get it from Midwest, did you?

I get my Wyeast locally in Regina. I did buy it back in May, and it was manufactured in April, but still I was expecting it to puff up, especially with the 3068 strain.

[cul8rv8]

I used the 3068 in my Weizenbock this past Thursday, and I swear it didn't swell at all. I smacked it about 6 hours or so prior to pitching, and it did nothing. I went out the next morning (Friday) to the overpriced new LHBS here in Vegas and picked up a vial of WLP300 as I was determined to make it work. It finally started showing signs of fermenting yesterday evening. Looking back, I should have done a starter with either yeast. Oh well, learn from mistakes, right?

If I remember right, the date was April or May on it. I wonder if Wyeast had a problem batch...

[belsonc]

Mine was the Belgian Ardennes - number escapes me at the moment - and it MIGHT'VE swollen. A little. Possibly.

Left me with a 30 hour lag and a resolve to consider starters more seriously from here on out. :-)

[barleyburps]

I typically harvest from one batch and pitch to the next. . . .however, when I do occasionally start with new yeast, I either grow up a starter ahead of time, or buy double the yeast to ensure i have enough viable cells. . .

[M.K. Jeeves]

Originally posted by belsonc
So... yeah, definitely intrigued by this. A starter based on a malt beverage? Mind posting a little more detail? :-)

I might try this way once, if only out of curiosity. :-)

It was an experiment that actually panned out. I had tasted Malta goya some time ago and decided it was sickly malty mess that did not appeal to me at the time.

Flash foward a couple of years, I wanted to make a starter for this beer, but had no DME or LME to use, I suppose I could have used my wort, but there was somthing about the flavor of the Malta goya that I recalled that I thought would fit in with this style.

I bought an 8oz single bottle, poured it into a bowl, whisked in the yeast, covered the bowl with plastic wrap for 2-3 hours then poured it in the primary with the aid of a funnel.

When I took my FG reading I had a taste, and was really pleased with the results. I think this is going to be good stuff when I drink it in a few weeks.

[grimalkin]

This thread is very interesting. It's easy to be stuck in a dogmatic state of mind when all your brewing information comes from a couple books. Reading people's personal solutions to fermentation problems is inspiring.

I used a starter for the first time the last time I brewed, two weeks ago this coming Sunday. The beer is an IPA with a SG of 1.065, done as a mini-mash. A local homebrewer I recently had the pleasure to meet and sample beer from suggested a yeast starter. That and controlling the fermentation temperature. His brews were professional quality, so I listened.

Following a hodge-podge of advice, but mostly relying on David Miller's Complete Homebrewing Guide, I made a 1/2 - 3/4 gallon wort of about 1.025 the night before brewday and pitched my yeast into it. By the next day, there was a delicious slurry of yeast in the bottom inch of the gallon jug. I pitched the whole thing into my wort, and fermentation was going nuts within three hours, maybe earlier - I was out for dinner the whole lag time.

I have a couple questions about some statements made earlier in this thread:
Did you also include an aeration system?
Yeast needs oxygen to grow, or you end up just with a fermented beverage.

I only shook my starter wort before pitching the yeast. When you say "fermented beverage", you're saying the cell count will be very low compared to if you properly aerate the starter wort, right? I'm thinking of buying or building a stirring plate for future starters.

I either make starters or pitch a vial or dry on a small beer then rack onto the yeast cake.

I saw a couple people say they racked onto the yeast cake from a past beer. Do you mean that literally, as in you left the yeast in the carboy and racked the new beer on top of it, or did you rack (don't know if that's the appropriate term in this case) the slurry to an intermediate storage vessel?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by grimalkin

I saw a couple people say they racked onto the yeast cake from a past beer. Do you mean that literally, as in you left the yeast in the carboy and racked the new beer on top of it, or did you rack (don't know if that's the appropriate term in this case) the slurry to an intermediate storage vessel?

yep - right on top. Moving it around will add infection risks.


I don't make any starters as I normally use dry yeast. I do rehydrate the yeast, though

[markaberrant]

So Hogie, you essentially re-use dry yeast?

I'm planning to switch to US-05 as my house yeast, but I was wondering if it's ok to repitch dry yeast... I thought I read somewhere this was a bad thing to do?

[Otis_The_Drunk]

I always use a starter unless i'm repictching on an old yeast cake.

[BrewDog]

Originally posted by ClaudiusB
Did you also include an aeration system?
Yeast needs oxygen to grow, or you end up just with a fermented beverage.

I love to build gadgets.

Cheers,
Claudiusb

Claudius-

I have an oxygenation system, but not permanently hooked up to my stir plate as yours is. I simply shoot o2 into my starter periodically, and use one of the breathable foam stoppers to keep the nasties out but let air in and co2 out.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by markaberrant
So Hogie, you essentially re-use dry yeast?

no - I meant that I rehydrate the new pack instead of just sprinkling the yeast on top of the wort. The dry packets are cheap enough that trying to save the yeast will cost more than just getting a new pack.

[markaberrant]

Originally posted by HogieWan
no - I meant that I rehydrate the new pack instead of just sprinkling the yeast on top of the wort. The dry packets are cheap enough that trying to save the yeast will cost more than just getting a new pack.

Ok, that's what I figured. I'm ordering my S-05 this week or next, and I want to order enough to cover me until the end of 2008.

You may not care, but I'm planning on using this yeast for - Cali Common, IPA, US Barleywine, RIS, Dortmunder, US stout, Sticke Alt and Imperial Pilsner. It really is an awesome yeast - works well at various temperatures, clean as can be, highly attenuative, and has a high alcohol tolerance.

[HogieWan]

I used s-04 for a few beers, but I really like s-05.

I need to brew soon.

[corkybstewart]

I use a starter every time and I've got a little twist to mine. I make the starter 4 or 5 days before I brew so I can cold crash it the day before. On brewday I take it out and let it warm up to room temp. I collect some of the first runnings, boil 15-20 minutes and cool. Then I pour off the liquid from the flask and replace with the fresh wort. By the time I'm finished brewing the starter is going wild. I usually have visible fermentation within 2 hours.
I have used dry yeast a couple of times and it works well, but I still prefer the specificity of the liquid yeast types.

[ClaudiusB]

Originally posted by grimalkin
I only shook my starter wort before pitching the yeast. When you say "fermented beverage", you're saying the cell count will be very low compared to if you properly aerate the starter wort, right? I'm thinking of buying or building a stirring plate for future starters.

The presence of oxygen determines the metabolic fate of the yeast cell.. Yeast will rapidly grow to high densities in the presence of oxygen.
Under anaerobic conditions, yeast grows much more slowly and to lower densities.
The reason we make a yeast starter is to produce a sufficient
quantity of yeast for subsequent fermentation.
Yeast cell count doubles at least every 3 hours when in the growth phase.
I feed my yeast with new wort at least twice a day. I don’t pitch the starter only the yeast slurry.
Once the oxygen is depleted fermentation starts , so keep the aeration going until you have the yeast count you are looking for.
From a view yeast cells (http://www.hobbybrauer.de./bilder/ClaudiusB/Yeast-Starter 01.jpg)
Good looking starter, all the white dots are yeast cells (http://www.hobbybrauer.de./bilder/ClaudiusB/Yeast-Starter11.jpg)
The more cells in the starter the lighter the color. Most of the light is reflected back.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB