GRRR Infection

[fuji6100]

After having one batch infected, I bought a new bottling bucket and switched from one-step sanitizer to iodaphor. I bought new syphon tubing and tried to be immaculate about sanitation. I work in a hospital, so I'm quite used to things needing to be sterile... sanitized should be no problem.

The beer was fine up until bottling. It stayed in the secondary carboy for almost a month with no signs of infection. Then, after being in the bottle for 5 days, it looks like this

http://www.angelfire.com/anime/negamoon86/beer.html

The only source I can think of would be the bottling bucket. But I let the iodaphor solution sit in it while I was setting up my other stuff. I let some of the solution through the spigot at the bottom and used a soft washcloth to wipe all around the inside of the bucket (with iodaphor) before using it to transfer my beer into before bottling.

I know it isn't dirty bottles, because my tap a draft that I also bottled from this batch has the same white ring around it.

Any suggestions?

[OldHooky]

what's your water source?

[fuji6100]

i use city water for my 3 1/2 gallons that I boil (so that gets the full 1 hour boil and it sterilized) and then bottled water (ozonated drinking water) to top up after the boil.

Like I said, it showed no signs of infection even after almost a month in secondary. It was just after bottling.

[brewmonkey]

First lose the iodophor and go with something along the lines of Star-San. Iodophor can and will cause problems with beer.

Second, was every bottle infected? If it was not every bottle then the problem was not the bucket but the bottles and/or caps used.

[fuji6100]

Yup, every bottle looks like that. Even the 6 Liter Tap-a-draft bottle has the crud ring.

I handwash all my bottles, then run them through the dishwasher on HOT DRY with one-step used in the detergent compartment. I've never had a problem in the past doing it that way. I also soak my caps in sanitizer while i"m getting everything else set up.

But yeah, I'll ditch the iodaphor. Some people really talk it up, so I was hoping it would be a step in a better direction from one-step.

[GunNut76]

Have you tasted your beer yet? If not, do it. I don't think it is an infection. I had the same thing on one batch of mine. It ended up being a protien ring. What did you use to prime? DME?

PS FYI One-Step is the closest thing to an instant sanitizer that there is. Even with Iodophor you need to soak for at least one min. I use One-Step and I have never had any infections yet and I only dip for 5-30 seconds.

[fuji6100]

I thought one-step required longer than that for sanitation... it is a sodium percarbonate cleanser right? I thought those took 10 minutes.

Anyway, I guess I'll try star-san now. I'll be getting into kegging within a few months and from what I hear its great for kegs.

As far as the bottles, I used corn sugar to prime. I tasted the beer 2 days ago and it tasted fine. I"ll just have to keep a check on it. I had this EXACT same looking infection a while back but not nearly as severe. I noticed a slightly sour taste in the beer after about 3 months in the bottle. The rest of the beer went quickly so it never got a chance to spoil (I always keep a 6 pack or so to see how my brews age out)

[ray m]

I can vouch for the virtues of StarSan, Fuji. I switched to it several months ago and never, ever had a problem (nor did I with OneStep, but I feel better about using StarSan). The best thing about StarSan is that you don't have to rinse it out/let it dry---just empty out the vessel and have at it.

[GunNut76]

One Step is so named because you can dip and use. My package says: "Cleans with oxygen. Does not contain chlorine, bisulfates, organic compounds or phosphates." It does contain percarbonates however. From what I have learned O2 is one of the fastest sanitizers. YMMV

[Pappy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
First lose the iodophor and go with something along the lines of Star-San. Iodophor can and will cause problems with beer.



What sort of problems?

[brewmonkey]

Iodophor when used improperly will contaminate the beer. It comes across as phenolic (band aid/medicinal) in the flavor and aroma.

I handwash all my bottles, then run them through the dishwasher on HOT DRY with one-step used in the detergent compartment. I've never had a problem in the past doing it that way. I also soak my caps in sanitizer while i"m getting everything else set up.

There is always a first time. While I admire the ingenuity of homebrewers this is probably not the best method to use.

As I said a Ray M sttests to, Star-San is the stuff to use. No rinse, no off flavors in the beer and once you mix it, you can store it for several days without it falling out of solution (try that with iodophor). It also will not stain your kitchen, floor, buckets, etc...

[b3s]

baking your glassware will make it not just sanitized, but sterile. something to consider. if memory serves (i don't do this, but i know it from my mother, who was a toxicologist) 250F @ 60 minutes ought to do the trick...of couse, then you got to let them cool off before bottling :)

i agree on the iodophur...i use it, and i got stains everywhere from it...not even sure if i'm gonna finish the bottle before i switch to star-sans.

[bigmf]

Just to clear up an unlikely event... Did you boil the corn sugar?


M.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by b3s
baking your glassware will make it not just sanitized, but sterile. something to consider. if memory serves (i don't do this, but i know it from my mother, who was a toxicologist) 250F @ 60 minutes ought to do the trick...of couse, then you got to let them cool off before bottling :)

i agree on the iodophur...i use it, and i got stains everywhere from it...not even sure if i'm gonna finish the bottle before i switch to star-sans.

But as soon as you open the door of the washer and they start to cool down they draw air into themselves and with that air comes microbes. While they were sterile at one point, they will not remain that way for long.

Using a chemical sani is best. Star-San is great because even after the equipment is dry it continues to maintain a sani environment for quite some time.

[b3s]

i didn't say washer, i said oven. dishwashers do not get the glass to the appropriate temperature to sterilize (not even to sanitize).

leave them in there to cool. they will stay sterile for an appropriate amount of time.

i also said i don't do it...too time consuming. i'd rather dunk the glassware into a no-rinse solution for a couple of minutes, let it drip drip dry, and go.

[Brownbeard]

Having sold dishwashers for a few years, I can say without fear of being wrong, that several dishwashers on the market certainly get hot enough to sanitize. If you are running a daycare in your home, by lay, you have to have a dishwasher approved to sanitize. They are available from Kenmoore, Whirlpool, Maytag, GE, Kitchenaid, and Bosch. Just look for the seal inside the door, or the sanitizing cycle button. Anymore, most middle of the line and above dishwashers will do it for you. Personally, I use StarSan. It is cheap, super cheap, and very easy to use.

[brewmonkey]

My dishmasher will get up there for it, but that setting kills my dishes. I tried it once "just to see". It cost me 4 pint glasses and bunch of dishes (which I hated anyway!).

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by b3s
i didn't say washer, i said oven. dishwashers do not get the glass to the appropriate temperature to sterilize (not even to sanitize).

leave them in there to cool. they will stay sterile for an appropriate amount of time.

i also said i don't do it...too time consuming. i'd rather dunk the glassware into a no-rinse solution for a couple of minutes, let it drip drip dry, and go.

It does not matter how the heat is applied, any object cooling will create a vacuum within itself. Since neither an oven or a diahwasher is airtight it will draw in microbes.

Same reason why you do not put an airlock onto a carboy that is still cooling down to fermentation temp. Anything in the airlock/blow off bucket will be sucked in by the vacuum.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Iodophor when used improperly will contaminate the beer. It comes across as phenolic (band aid/medicinal) in the flavor and aroma.


I've only switched to Iodophor recently and have yet to have a problem. What sort of improper use will give the bad results? Hadn't heard about this and want to make sure I don't hose up an otherwise good batch while I finish up the bottle I have.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Pappy
I've only switched to Iodophor recently and have yet to have a problem. What sort of improper use will give the bad results? Hadn't heard about this and want to make sure I don't hose up an otherwise good batch while I finish up the bottle I have.

It does not have to be improper use, just using it can cause problems.

The biggest one I have seen though is improper dilution of iodophor. It should be 12.5ppm for correct use, but most people just mix it until it is the color of a weak tea.

[fuji6100]

Just to clear up an unlikely event... Did you boil the corn sugar?

My usual procedure is dissolving 1/2 cup corn sugar in 1 cup of bottled water and then putting it in my microwave safe measuring cup and microwaving it until it boils. I pour into the bottom of my sanitized bottling bucket, then rack the beer onto the sugar-water so it stirs as it racks.

I'm considering just getting a new bottling bucket and spigot. Perhaps there is some gunk in the spigot that I just can't reach to clean out and bacteria is hiding in it where the sanitizer can't touch. Who knows, I'll just switch to star-san and see if it clears up.

[YamahaXS]

Until you taste off flavors in your beer, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Tweek]

It does not have to be improper use, just using it can cause problems.

Going to have to disagree with you on this one Brewmonkey. I have been using iodophor for years, and if used properly it is an effective, inexpespensive no rinse sanitizer. However if you do not use it correctly, it can cause problems. Too little Iodophor and it is ineffectual, too much and you will be able to taste it. Just using it will not create problems, but rather the inproper use of it. Iodophor has been around in many peoples setups for years with no problems.

[mortong]

http://www.homebrew.com/articles/article08290301.shtml

Repost of an article someone made a while back about iodophor.

I'd been a bit nervous about it before, even though I haven't had any problems with it. Now I'm pretty confident - I just make sure to get my mixture correct.

Geoff

[brewmonkey]

Just using it will not create problems, but rather the inproper use of it.


I too know people who have used it successfully over the years with no problems. But there are cases where it was dosed correctly and still caused problems. While it may be the cheapest sanitizer it is not the most effective and does have an error margin.

Products like Star-San are very effective and even when used improperly (overdosed) it will not cause the problems that iodophor and bleach will (bleach is another that will produce chlorophenol problems).

People use what they want and like I have said before, I have no problem with that. But when there is a better fool proof method I am for that.

[bigmf]

I think you should crack one now so you can determine if it is infected or if you have a protein ring. If it is infected then it must be some tubing or the spigot or some other narrow opening.

M

[Pappy]

Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get a percarbonate/oxygen based sanitizer than these brewing supply stores? I am thinking pool sanitizing supplies may be the same stuff at a cheaper price, but I'm just not sure which ones would work. Any thoughts?

[fuji6100]

bigmf - would you get a protein ring from priming with corn sugar?

so far the beer tastes like it should... very green, flat beer.

what I'm worried about is it developing a sour taste as it ages.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by fuji6100
bigmf - would you get a protein ring from priming with corn sugar?

so far the beer tastes like it should... very green, flat beer.

what I'm worried about is it developing a sour taste as it ages.

I don't know for sure, but I would guess that IF you can see the bacteria, you would be able to taste it.

[bigmf]

No you wouldn't get a protein ring from the priming, it would be from a lack of hot and/or cold break. It wouldn't affect the taste.

M.

[fuji6100]

yeah, that's what I thought. I always get a good cold break and try and leave as much in the kettle as possible. What's left usually gets left at the bottom of the primary so I don't think its a protein ring.

Oddly enough, I had an infection that looked EXACTLY like this about 6 months ago. What was coincidental about it was that it was the exact same type of beer (irish red) and this is the first time I've brewed one since the last. Maybe I"m just not destined to make any reds :P

Anyway, the last infection wasn't as noticable (you really had to look hard to see anything) but after about 3 months, the beer started to have a sour taste too it so I poured the remainder of it out.

I guess I'll just have to drink this one until it starts souring. At least it won't kill me.