Guniess and pouring in Europe question

[wortchillergoal]

It is time once again for me to show my ignorance. I am hoping that one of overseas members or someone who has been can help me.

Does it take as long to pour a Gunniess over there as it does here? I have yet to see a pour that takes less than 3 minutes what with letting the head settle and scooping foam etc. Thanks for the help.

[markaberrant]

A proper Guinness pour requires no scooping foam...

[steveh]

The proper Guinness (I wish we could edit subject lines) pour is two-parted; 2 thirds straight into the imperial pint, allow nitro cascade to settle out, top off final third slowly at a 45 degree angle to create a nice, 1/2 inch head.

Pretty sure it takes 3 minutes or more, no scooping involved (wot a waste), and doesn't need a transatlantic flight to be performed.

And to those who wonder why so much attention to a pour, I've had both the proper pour and the untrained, thrash the stout into the pint pour side-by-side -- it does seem that the proper pour allows for a smoother mouth-feel and a less harsh (nitro/O2 bite) flavor.

Oh, and a proper Pils pour in eastern Europe takes a little longer -- no scooping involved there either.

S.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by steveh
The proper Guinness (I wish we could edit subject lines) pour is two-parted; 2 thirds straight into the imperial pint, allow nitro cascade to settle out, top off final third slowly at a 45 degree angle to create a nice, 1/2 inch head.

Pretty sure it takes 3 minutes or more, no scooping involved (wot a waste), and doesn't need a transatlantic flight to be performed.

And to those who wonder why so much attention to a pour, I've had both the proper pour and the untrained, thrash the stout into the pint pour side-by-side -- it does seem that the proper pour allows for a smoother mouth-feel and a less harsh (nitro/O2 bite) flavor.

Oh, and a proper Pils pour in eastern Europe takes a little longer -- no scooping involved there either.

S.

Thank you steveh. As to the subject line, I was trying to do too many things at once. I have only seen scooping done when a bartender appeared to be in a hurry. I was asked about this subject at another board. I don't drink Guninness that often and was not sure.

[Richard English]

Guinness takes a while to pour wherever you buy it, but Guinness recipes vary (even though the drink is always black). In my experience, the Guinness brewed in Ireland is more creamy and takes longer to pour than does the Guinness brewed elsewhere. UK Guinness used to be brewed in London (Park Royal) but that brewery closed a year or so ago and we now get our Guinness from Dublin.

[gallowd7]

Saw a show about Guinness in Ireland and they said it takes 118 seconds.

Very interesting about the Pils in eastern Europe.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
Guinness takes a while to pour wherever you buy it,

Richard, don't discount hurried, uneducated (in proper beer knowledge) US bar tenders -- I've seen many a Guinness poured as fast as they pour Miller Lite -- it's a shame and I can only shake my head. It's even worse when they've grabbed a chilled glass before you've realized you've forgotten to ask for the contrary!

Gallowd, there's nothing more heart lifting and warming than seeing a row of Pilsner glasses on the Bierhall bar lined up and, slowly & tenderly, being topped off to serve a full portion. Sometimes the head can rise 3 or 4 inches above the rim of the glass.

Here's a good example: http://www.beerme.com/travels/2006_12_Bodensee/kronePils.jpg
Though I think this pour cheated the customer a little.

S.

[Richard English]

My remark was intended to imply that "Guinness takes a long time to pour PROPERLY wherever you are". I had assumed the reader would take that inference!

But I agree with you. The first time I ever drank Guinness in the USA (at the top of the World Trade Center back in 1979) the barman upturned the bottle as if it were a bottle of Dudweiser before I was able to stop him. 50% of the drink (at least) landed on the table-cloth! I made sure I poured the next one myself.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by steveh

Though I think this pour cheated the customer a little.

S.

beer foam is 25% liquid, 75% gas. After settling, that may be a legit pour

[MrNate]

Originally posted by steveh
It's even worse when they've grabbed a chilled glass before you've realized you've forgotten to ask for the contrary!


Entirely off-topic, but have you noticed that when you order a martini nowadays you have to specifically ASK for gin or they will give you vodka? What a sad, sad place this world is becoming.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh

Here's a good example: http://www.beerme.com/travels/2006_12_Bodensee/kronePils.jpg

S.


That made me thirsty. Is that one of your own pictures Steveh?

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
beer foam is 25% liquid, 75% gas. After settling, that may be a legit pour

I know what you're saying, but the bottom of the head looks to be well below the "fill line" (or at least the spot where I've seen most fill lines), and will probably not settle in an upward direction as much as a downward one (note the nice lacing on the Willi Becker to the left).

Yes, I've spent too much time studying Pilsners in Muncih, sue me. ;)

Sorry Chaz, not one of my pics -- I'd not have accepted the pour! ;-)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MrNate
you have to specifically ASK for gin or they will give you vodka?

I saw that tide start to turn a few years ago. Some of my friends looked at me sideways when I'd talk about martinis being made of gin. The sad world of martinis can be blamed on Ian Fleming, I'll side with Benjamin Franklin Pierce, thank you.

S.

"Are you a beer drinker sir, or would you care to join me in a martini?"

[Thirsty in NY]

Originally posted by MrNate
Entirely off-topic, but have you noticed that when you order a martini nowadays you have to specifically ASK for gin or they will give you vodka? What a sad, sad place this world is becoming.


This is one of the few things that annoys the hell out of me. It is clearly a sign that civilization is in deep trouble.

[stronk]

The proper Guinness (I wish we could edit subject lines) pour is two-parted; 2 thirds straight into the imperial pint, allow nitro cascade to settle out, top off final third slowly at a 45 degree angle to create a nice, 1/2 inch head.

I was taught the opposite in Ireland (although it probably either doesn't make a difference or depends on serving temp, line width, etc.): 2/3 slowly down the side of the glass, leave to settle for about a minute and then the rest straight in.

[steveh]

Originally posted by stronk
I was taught the opposite in Ireland

You could be correct, it's been a long time since I poured my own (which you can do at various Guinness functions). Reading backwards from my description, yours makes more sense.

S.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Thirsty in NY
This is one of the few things that annoys the hell out of me. It is clearly a sign that civilization is in deep trouble.

And on similar lines, have you noticed that if you order a shandy (shandygaff, to give it its full name) you have to specify that you want it made with bitter - or some ignorant bartender will make it with chemical fizz lemonade. There are only two traditional kinds of shandy: normal shandy - bitter and lemonade; ginger beer shandy - bitter and ginger beer.

I don't know whether shandy is popular in the USA but here it's a popular drink in the summer, when you need a lot of liquid and don't want to get legless on undiluted beer.

[noby]

Stronk is right on the pouring of Guinness. Glass at about 45deg for the first pour, then straight for the second pour. And no Shamrocks or smilie faces in my head, please.

Steve, maybe it's time for a refresher course.


Richard, here people usually specify the drink they want the shandy made with (ale shandy, lager shandy etc.).

[Richard English]

Originally posted by noby
Stronk is right on the pouring of Guinness. Glass at about 45deg for the first pour, then straight for the second pour. And no Shamrocks or smilie faces in my head, please.

Steve, maybe it's time for a refresher course.


Richard, here people usually specify the drink they want the shandy made with (ale shandy, lager shandy etc.).

You have to specify the kind of shandy nowadays - but you shouldn't need to. A shandy is made with bitter beer and lemonade and that's what you should get if you simply ask for "A shandy". Just as you should get a Martini made with gin is you simply ask for "A Martini".

That you have to explain is a reflection on the lack of knowledge of the bar staff.

[noby]

It might be more of a reflection on the fact that Bitters are pretty non-existent in Irish pubs.

[Richard English]

That could be true - and I suspect that shandy might be a relatively recent import from the UK in any case.

[steveh]

Originally posted by noby
Steve, maybe it's time for a refresher course.

Nah, I'm not in the pouring business, I just enjoy the end results (most times anyway). ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
That could be true - and I suspect that shandy might be a relatively recent import from the UK in any case.

I remember first seeing Shandy at an old college pub with an English/Irish theme in the late '70s here in N. Illinois. Don't ask me what they were mixing for the final product, I avoided it after my first try.

Then, of course, there's: http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/710/36010

S.

[MrNate]

The only way I have ever seen a shandy made is with piss lager and 7-up.

Not to sound ignorant, but when I questioned the use of 7-up I was told Lemonade means the same thing as 7-Up in the UK. When you say "lemonade," do you mean "lemon juice, sugar, and water" or something else?

[Richard English]

I believe that 7Up is much the same as lemonade. Lemonade is more than lemon juice and water - it is a carbonated drink. The very best lemonade is made by firms like Fentimans, http://www.fentimans.com/ who promote the carbonation in the best way - by means of a fermentation in the bottle. This does mean that Fentiman's lemonade is slightly alcoholic - maybe .5% - but it is so low as to be considered a non-alcoholic drink in the UK.

Cheaper lemonades are gassed up by extraneous carbon dioxide - just like Dudweiser and other chemical fizz beers.

Shandy can be made with either form of lemonade, but clearly the very best will be made from cask-condition bitter and bottle-conditioned lemonade (or bottle-conditioned ginger-beer if you want a ginger-beer shandy).

[noby]

7-UP is more of a lemon and lime flavoured drink.

[MrNate]

Ah, thank you both kindly!

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Richard English
Just as you should get a Martini made with gin is you simply ask for "A Martini". Just ask for a Martini and if you're lucky the gin will be Seagram's or the Vodka Smirnoff. If you're not lucky, you'll get some ADM corn processing plant special (yes, that's the same material that ends up in gasahol or E85 with some filtration and dilution). The only difference in the products being that the gin vapors percolate through a box lined with "botanicals," which are mainly juniper berries, before condensation.

Do yourself a favor and apply to your spirits the same selectivity that you apply to your beer selection. If you specify, say, Beefeaters or Bombay Sapphire, you'll know you're getting a gin that is worthy of the designation.

[Richard English]

Quite so. Specify the drink if there's any doubt at all about the competence of the bar staff.

Harvey's Mild; Nytetimber Sparkling English wine; Beefeater gin or Smith's Glenlivet malt whisky. That way you know you're getting what you want and what your patate deserves.

[chazwicke]

I also prefer to go with specific liquors as opposed to the common rail drinks. I'm in agreement with Mill Rat and Richard on this.

[MrNate]

I'm just naieve, I guess. In an upscale Manhattan bar where a martini costs something like $12, I just expected a little better. You're absolutely right about the "when in doubt, specify a brand" rule. Only now I think I will specify whether I have doubts or not.

The bad part is that my wife came back with it, I took two sips and said something like, "This is the worst gin I've ever tasted!"

Only time I've ever sent a drink back in my life.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quite so. Specify the drink if there's any doubt at all about the competence of the bar staff. Or any doubt about the profit-enhancing directions they may have received from the bar manager.

[DecoJuicer]

I will generally make my orders very specific. Just as I would never go to a steakhouse and say, "gimme a steak", I would never walk into a bar and say "give me a whiskey(or beer, tequila, gin, etc.).

What frosts my ass is a bar with a great selection of spirits, a fantastic wine list, but only crap for beer.

I tried my first shandy this summer, and even though it was a Leinenkugels, and probably not even close to authentic(it was made with wheat beer), I enjoyed it. I was working on my truck on a super hot day, and it went down really well.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
What frosts my ass is a bar with a great selection of spirits, a fantastic wine list, but only crap for beer. This is typically the case with restaurants in England - but not pubs. Most pubs will have a good choice of everything except good bottled beer. It's rare indeed for a pub to have a single one of the UK's 650 plus bottle-conditioned beers. Even J D Wetherspoon, which has a fine range of bottled beers, rarely has any bottle-conditioned examples.

I tried my first shandy this summer, and even though it was a Leinenkugels, and probably not even close to authentic(it was made with wheat beer), I enjoyed it. I was working on my truck on a super hot day, and it went down really well. Shandy is a good choice for a hot day's drink if you need to limit your alcohol intake. Better by far than any "light" fizz-beer which will be not only tasteless but also probably quite alcoholic. Most US macro-fizz beers are around 5%; a shandy would probably end up as around 2% (depending, of course, on the proportions of the mix).