Plastic vs. SS AG system

[EBW]

I am about to buy an AG system and I am wondering if The rubbermaid cooler system is a good choice over a stainless steel system. The only place I have found a complete SS system is at midwest supply. I know the price of the SS is twice as much, but I'm willing to pay that if it will be worth it.


I'm sure there are threads here that address this, but I haven't found one yet. Can someone point me in the right direction?

I want to go to AG because I love brewing and I want to step it up to the next level. I want to start designing my own recipies and start competing in brewoffs outside my own little town.

[HogieWan]

plastic insulated coolers hold heat better than SS. SS is metal and won't melt, so you can apply direct heat to it to raise your mash temps. It's a tradeoff - which do you prefer?

[EBW]

I talked to a guy at midwest who told me that the difference is that I wouldn't be able to do step mashing. He said I could just about do any kind of beer with the coolers and get good results, but I wouldn't be able to do multiple infusions. I realize that the malt used today is usually highly modified and so certain steps such as a protien rest aren't required, however I also have read that when using larger ammounts of specialty grains, step mashing is required.

I want to make true to style beers and later design beers that will compete with anyone.

I wonder if I'm worrying a little too much about it?

[hooky]

Why not do both?

I have a 50 qt cooler now. I'm going to convert a keg for a mash tun next. The cooler was alot cheaper than the keg.

I found out on the last two batches that I can indeed do step mashes in the cooler. I'm only doing the keg because I want more tun space and if I miss a strike temp, I can direct fire to get it up.

[HogieWan]

You can add boiling water to raise a temp in a plastic cooler, if you have room. You could also decoct a portion of the mash

[BrewDog]

What Hogie said ^^^^. You absolutely can do step mashes in a cooler. Many of us here do them all the time. Just know the limitations of your system (volume wise), and always be prepared for an "emergency decoction" or two, just in case.

[mookow]

I've done plenty of step mashes in my Ice Cube cooler setup. Heck, my first AG batch was a decoction mash (not by choice or planning). Luckily I was able to call my friend who works at Great Lakes for some advice on that, as I had not really read up on it at all.

[EBW]

It is starting to sound like the cooler setup has more advantages than I thought. Thanks to all of you for the input.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by EBW
It is starting to sound like the cooler setup has more advantages than I thought. Thanks to all of you for the input.

I keep telling you the advantages, but I still use all SS

[HarkJohnny]

www.minibrew.com has plastic mashtuns that would be plenty big. a guy in our club bought one after he saw my fermenter, said he likes it.

[BrewDog]

Sorry, I can't see spending $250 on a plastic lauter tun when I can buy one made from a cooler in my LHBS with all the bells and whistles for $100.

[Vienna Lager]

Pretty much what everybody else has said. I use a 48-50 qt Thermos brand rectangular cooler and have done numerous multi- step (temp) mashes. Did a two step (sounds like 7th grade gym class where I learned to dance He He) once and got creative enough to do a decoction so really ended up with a three step.

Multi-step-rests can be done in a cooler and it is rather easy, just add a couple of qts. or gallon of boiling water to the protein rest and watch your temps increase.

[MichaelM]

Originally posted by mookow
I've done plenty of step mashes in my Ice Cube cooler setup. Heck, my first AG batch was a decoction mash (not by choice or planning). Luckily I was able to call my friend who works at Great Lakes for some advice on that, as I had not really read up on it at all.

what he said instead of the 10 gallon round cooler use the 48 quart ICE CUBE cooler.... if I had to do it over again thats what I would go with.... hell of alot cheaper with all the same benefits of a round cooler..

and as far as step mashing you can either do infusion mashing( I actuialy find it easier to hit temps by pulling some of the wort out of the mashtun and heating it and pouring in....) or my next step is built a steam injection setup

[BrewDog]

Michael-

the problem with heating a part of your existing mash water and pouring it back in is that if you exceed mash temps you will denature the enzymes and run the risk of not having enough enzymes to convert your mash. This is not a problem for most all-barley grain bills, but as soon as you put in adjuncts or unmalted grains, it can become a huge problem.

[vw addict]

I have a Brew Magic system with 3 SS converted kegs. I like the ability to be able to heat the MLT if need be. Basically it can be done both ways, plastic or stainless. The biggest difference is how you would go about the heating of the MT, not necessarily the fact you wouldn't be able to accomplish it.

[EBW]

Well, after reading this forum several times and considering every point, I have decided to go all stainless. I appreciate all your help and now I'd like to ask for some more.

First of all I have decided not to get the SS equipment kit from Midwest because they don't have it in stock and the itallian pots that comprise the kit are pretty cheap in construction. I have been looking at the 10 and 15 gallon Megapots with the incorporated fittings and valves.

Are there any other places I should look for 10-15 gallon pots online to compare quality and prices?

Again, thanks for the help. I can't wait to finally start making beer from all grain. The transition has become a matter of family pride as my wife really wants me to take it to the next level so that I can bring more craft to my brewing. My friends are pretty stoaked too, they know how important homebrewing has become to me since my beginnings about 2 1/2 years ago.

Thanks!!

EBW

[barleyburps]

I've been using a 28 gallon cheap italian pot since 3/02 which i obtained from morebeer.com

I've never had a problem with it and if the need should arise to buy another one, I wouldn't hesitate to go the same route.

I don't know how much difference this makes, but I heat mine on 4 electric burners as opposed to gas. I've never had a problem with scorching, or any aspect of its construction.

It is a more economical way to get larger volumes than with the majority of the pots on the market (with the exception of homemade keggles or if you luck out and find a large used restaurant pot cheap).

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Michael-

the problem with heating a part of your existing mash water and pouring it back in is that if you exceed mash temps you will denature the enzymes and run the risk of not having enough enzymes to convert your mash. This is not a problem for most all-barley grain bills, but as soon as you put in adjuncts or unmalted grains, it can become a huge problem.


I do the same thhing as michael, never had a problem. I might note that my use of adjuncts is rare.

[EBW]

Originally posted by barleyburps
I've been using a 28 gallon cheap italian pot since 3/02 which i obtained from morebeer.com

I've never had a problem with it and if the need should arise to buy another one, I wouldn't hesitate to go the same route.

I don't know how much difference this makes, but I heat mine on 4 electric burners as opposed to gas. I've never had a problem with scorching, or any aspect of its construction.

It is a more economical way to get larger volumes than with the majority of the pots on the market (with the exception of homemade keggles or if you luck out and find a large used restaurant pot cheap).

Hey, that's good to know. The Northern Brewer catalog made them out like they would be okay to use, but that they weren't very good.

I appriciate the info. That should save me some bucks. Once again it is always good to come here and get the real scoop.

Thanks again Barleyburps!!

EBW

[EBW]

Well, it looks like I'm all set. I just got through ordering my AG setup and some extras. I went with an all SS setup. The equipment should be here in a couple of weeks. I also got promash software and some literature, "New Brewing Lager Beer". The salesman told me that it was a good book to have arround and also suggested "How to Brew" by Palmer, which I already use online.

So thanks to you all for the help and input.

Sincerely,

EBW

[HarkJohnny]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Sorry, I can't see spending $250 on a plastic lauter tun when I can buy one made from a cooler in my LHBS with all the bells and whistles for $100.

hey, I can't agree more. i think i dropped a jaw when he told me. but to each his own!

[vw addict]

Originally posted by EBW I also got promash software and some literature, "New Brewing Lager Beer". The salesman told me that it was a good book to have arround and also suggested "How to Brew" by Palmer, which I already use online.

Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher has been a great help for me to understanding the steps past the basics.

[MrNate]

Originally posted by HarkJohnny
hey, I can't agree more. i think i dropped a jaw when he told me. but to each his own!

The problem I have with their HLT is that the tanks they use are HDPE. When I looked into building a HLT like that one, I found that none of the HDPE tanks were rated up to boiling temps. Now I'm no materials engineer, but for a few dollars more I'd feel better about using PP.

As a matter of fact, the only reason I could see choosing a real tank over a Gott cooler (or a HD bucket for that matter) would be the peace-of-mind about the temp rating.

[EBW]

Originally posted by vw addict
Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher has been a great help for me to understanding the steps past the basics.

I haven't heard much about that book. I'm glad to get someone's opinion on it. I will have to get ahold of it soon. I know I'm going to need as much help as I can get with getting started in AG. There is only one AG brewer arround here, and he hasn't been brewing lately as he is in the middle of moving into a new place. So I'm going to be flying solo for a bit.

My equipment hasn't arrived yet and it will be a few weeks as NB is waiting on some of it to get to them from overseas. So I guess this will be an optimal time to read up and start setting up my parlor and shop for brewing AG.

[tapme]

EBW I just got through making a ICE CUBE Cooler and it works great, although I have nothing to compare it to as this is my first stab at All Graining it.
My first 2 batches turned out alright, its just a new tool in the shop that I have to learn how to use.
During a late night at work when I was just sitting there, I whipped up a quick tutorial on how to put on together.
Good luck.


My ICECUBE Mashtun (http://www.lapdogbrewery.com/docs/mashtun.pdf)

edit: I must have missed your entry when you said you already ordered your parts, but I'll leave this here just in case someone needs/wants the info.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
I do the same thhing as michael, never had a problem. I might note that my use of adjuncts is rare.

Having seen the condition of your mash tun I have to recommend stainless! LOL It looks like you've tried heating it over a propane flame.
I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I would have recommended converted kegs for mashing and boiling. With a minimum of skill and tools you can do a very good converted keg with copper manifold that will last forever for under $75.

[BrewDog]

Originally posted by EBW
I haven't heard much about that book. I'm glad to get someone's opinion on it. I will have to get ahold of it soon.

Mosher's book is a good one. Definitely "outside of the box" thinking.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Having seen the condition of your mash tun I have to recommend stainless! LOL It looks like you've tried heating it over a propane flame.

That cooler has been in constant use for about three years now, and looks, well, horrible.

[BrewDog]

About every 10 batches or so, I'll PBW my cooler just to get the crud off.

[Mad Scientist]

Nope---it is way, way stained, and the inside is seriously warped

[EBW]

Originally posted by tapme
EBW I just got through making a ICE CUBE Cooler and it works great, although I have nothing to compare it to as this is my first stab at All Graining it.
My first 2 batches turned out alright, its just a new tool in the shop that I have to learn how to use.
If you care during a late night at work when I was just sitting there a whipped up a quick tutorial on how to put on together.
Good luck.


My ICECUBE Mashtun (http://www.lapdogbrewery.com/docs/mashtun.pdf)

edit: I must have missed your entry when you said you already ordered your parts, but I'll leave this here just in case someone needs/wants the info.


Thanks for the advice. I did already order as you mentioned, but I am going to be holding a series of demonstrations for a homebrew club that is lifting off the ground and the link will be perfect to direct people to when they want to see AG cooler versions. I really appreciate the information.

[EBW]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Having seen the condition of your mash tun I have to recommend stainless! LOL It looks like you've tried heating it over a propane flame.
I wish I had seen this thread earlier, I would have recommended converted kegs for mashing and boiling. With a minimum of skill and tools you can do a very good converted keg with copper manifold that will last forever for under $75.


Do you recommend any literature or sites that explain the proceedure and parts involved in converting kegs?

[EBW]

I ended up getting two 15 gal megapots with the layered bottoms comprised of stainless and aluminum. I got a bazooka T screen for my Mash/Laughter tun and a straight screen for boiling kettle. I also got a counterflow chiller, some AG kits, valves for the pots, thermometers for the pots, all the necessary fittings and hoses and had the holes pre-drilled in the pots. I got a few other things I was needing and ended up spending way more than I intended, but I think this setup should last me a long time.

[EBW]

I recieved my equipment a long time ago and still haven't even used it. I have been extremely busy and haven't even had a day to brew. I have been reading quite a bit and now have more questons. I know single infusion mashing is easiest and produces good quality beer. I have a system that can be used to step the mash. I have been reading about decoction mashing and wonder when I would choose decoction over step.

I realize that decoction mashing can help a homebrewer unlock certain flavor profiles from the malt and, if i'm not mistaken, can raise malt starch conversion efficiency. I also realize that either process can be employed when mashing undermodified malt. My questions are the following.

Does decoction mashing cause the color of a finished beer to be darker?

What kind of flavor differences does decoction mashing provide (i.e. sweeter, drier, maltier)? I know that these flavors are affected but in what way?

Also, are some beers supposed to be step mashed in order to better replicate the style?

[Mill Rat]

Decoction mashing works best for European lager styles, such as pilsners, Oktoberfests, and bocks. It produces a maltier flavor. It might cause the wort to darken a little bit, but it's not to an extent that I've noticed it, and I've brew several batches of pils that way that would make it very apparent if it did.

Step mashes are good for beers with higher protein content from adjuncts or six-row, or beers where you expect that there will be plenty of body from unfermentable sugars and you don't want the protein to add to an already thick mouthfeel. If you can't get away from an alkaline water source, an acid rest can help you out. So can the addition of some food-grade acid like phosphoric, though, with far less effort..

[EBW]

That alleviates some reservations I had about both methods. Thanks for the response Mill Rat.

I have annother question about mashing.

When step or decoction mashing, It is my understanding that one must stir the mash alot.

Is it a better idea to have a seperate lautering tun for sparging purposes, or does a mahs/lauter tun work just as well.

I ask this because I wonder about the particulate matter and sticky gooey stuff that may settle to the bottom of the mash tun when stirring.
Can stirring the mash that much cause a stuck runoff?

[corkybstewart]

I rarely ever stir my mash once all the doughballs are broken up. And I mash and sparge in my converted keg with a false bottom and a pickup tube that draws the wort from the center of the keg. I draw off a gallon of wort a couple of times and pour it back over the top of the mash and that almost always gets rid of the small pieces that managed to get under the false bottom. Then I start sparging.
As for step mashing you do have to stir the wort when adding heat(or hot water) but then you just let it sit. When decocting you have to stir constantly since there's very little liquid involved, but you're also only using a small portion of the mash and it's done in a sparate pot. When you return the decocted mash to the mash tun stir again. But there's never a need to stir a mash on a continuous basis.

[Vienna Lager]

Once I hit my target temp for the mash I stir and record the temp about every 20 mins. I use the same cooler for mashing and lautering and have done a two temp rest in my cooler. I have done a protein rest at about 122-128 degrees then added about 1 1/2 gals. of boiling water and that has brought me up into the 150-156 degree range for a 9-12 lb. grain bill for a 5 1/5 gallon batch.

[EBW]

This is sounding much better to me. I appreciate the answers. I have annother couple and then I think I'll be set.

I have a t shaped tublar screen (dubbed the "BazookaT" )attached to a piece of copper tubing in my mash tun kind of like a manifold. The genlteman at the place I ordered it from suggested I use this in place of a false bottom because they did not make false bottoms for the tun I ordered.


Will this setup work okay?

Additionaly, are there any places I could get a false bottom that will work on my mash tun or, barring that, a place I can get the materials to build a custom one myself?

[Vienna Lager]

Manifold works fine for all shapes of tun and can be the braided 'bazooka', 1/2" copper tubing or even PVC. The false bottom is a bit more specialized and usually is more costly. Stick with the manifold and you should be fine.

[EBW]

Originally posted by Vienna Lager
Manifold works fine for all shapes of tun and can be the braided 'bazooka', 1/2" copper tubing or even PVC. The false bottom is a bit more specialized and usually is more costly. Stick with the manifold and you should be fine.


That's a load off my mind. Thanks:)


Well I guess now I just have to figure out a time when I can brew. I am going to brew an AG porter kit and then later a bock.

Any suggestions of what type of mash I shold do for these (decoction or step)?

[Vienna Lager]

For Porter go with a single rest of about 148 to 151 degrees for 60 mins. to give you some dryness and less sweet-maltiness to the ale. Use about 7-8 lbs of 2 row then about 1 lb each of Crystal 60-80 and 1/2 lb chocolate or 1/4 lb black patent malt. A good dry yeast is Danstar Windsor for Porter.

For Bock use about 6 lbs. 2 row then 2 lbs. of Munich and 1/2 lb special B, 1/2 lb Melanoidin and 1/2 lb chocolate for color. Mash at about 155 degrees and you will get more malt flavor which will also be helped along by the Melanoidin. If you add Carahell and a little more Melanoidin then you will get some of the taste accociated with a decoction mash. A good dry yeast is Danstar Nottingham that at cooler temps acts like a psudo-lager yeast and would be good for a bock.