Oktoberfest recipe help

[rlkbaylor]

This is a recipe based on an article from BYO. I'm comforatable with the ingredients, but I'd really like input on the mash schedule. This is only my second AG batch. I will be batch sparging with about 2 Gallons.

Type: All Grain
Date: 6/12/2007
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Size: 7.15 gal
Boil Time: 120 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0


Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 81.5 %
1.50 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 11.1 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 7.4 %
1.30 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (60 min) Hops 20.9 IBU
0.66 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (5 min) Hops 2.0 IBU
0.33 oz Tettnang [4.50%] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs Octoberfest/Marzen Lager (White Labs #WLP820) Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.065 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.019 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.9 %
Bitterness: 22.9 IBU Calories: 295 cal/pint
Est Color: 12.2 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Triple Infusion w batch sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13.50 lb
Sparge Water: 2.27 gal
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
TunTemperature: 150.0 F
Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Dough In Add 10.00 qt of water at 134.3 F to 122.0 F 30 min
Infusion 1 Add 6.00 qt of water at 202.0 F to 148.0 F 15 min
Infusion 2 Add 4.00 qt of water at 192.9 F to 156.0 F 15 min
Mash out Add 6.00 qt of water at 208.2 F to 167.0 F 10 min

[BrewDog]

It's your second batch. Take it easy on yourself.
That grain bill doesn't need a protein rest, IMO. There isn't enough low modified malt in there to warrant it. Simplify this batch for yourself and go with a 153F single infusion mash and a 168 mashout.

The hops look great.

2 things-

1) Can you lager? That yeast needs to be lagered. If not, use a clean (but malt emphasising) ale yeast like WLP007.

2) There are more authentic grain bills (Pils & Munich with no crystal), but IMO, it's better to make the beer using an easier grain bill / mash schedule for your second AG batch. Get a couple single infusions under your belt then go for step mashes and decoctions. Or you can just say screw it and do a triple decoction right off the bat.

HTH-

[rlkbaylor]

thanks BD, what will the difference be between a single infusion & the triple infusion schedule?

I can lager. I have a fridge reserved solely for beer & brewing.

would you suggest that I drop the Pale malt & go with 11lbs of Pils?

I'm not ready for a decoction mash, figured the triple infusion was a good compromise.

[BrewDog]

The mash schedule you have shown in your original post is a multi-step (triple infusion as you call it). A single infusion mash would be just a single step at around 153F give or take.

Decoction is the "true" way to do an Octo. A protein rest will break proteins down for mashes that contain grains that are not fully modified. It will not add melanoidans the way a decoction would, so you will not get the decoction taste no matter how many steps you use.

The grains you have listed do not require a protein rest. To do one is both a waste of time and effort as well as possibly detrimental to head retention in the final beer.

If you stay with the grains as listed, then a single rest is sufficient.
You'd need to recalculate the dough in temp for yourself, but a single rest for 45 mins to an hour at 153 with the original grains you listed will do the trick. Let it sit until an iodine test shows conversion is complete.

Then, follow that up with a 168 10 minute mashout and then sparge. This way, you aren't wrestling with multiple steps. It's just a LOT easier using a single step, especially this only being your second AG batch.

If you want to go with Pilsner & Munich malt in this, then depending on the actual malt you end up using, you may or may not need the protein rest. Nowadays, most of these malts are fully modified, so a protein rest is not necessary, but some are more modified than others. Without seeing the actual grain specs we can't say one way or another for sure. The maltster's web pages often will help.

Yes, you would drop the crystal/caramel if you did a Pils/Munich mix. I don't have Promash here so I won't comment on the exact weights you need to use. I think 60/40 or 70/30 is typical, but you'll want to use software to get the mix to the right color (10-12 SRM is typical).

Hope this helps-

[rlkbaylor]

many thanks, I'll take your advice & do a single infusion @ 153 & mashout @ 168.

Is there ever a reason to do a double or triple infusion or is it better to just do a decoction?

[BrewDog]

German beers in general tend to be decocted.
Wheat beers in general are often multi-step mashed. Overall, it depends on the protein levels of the grains.

HTH-

[Mad Scientist]

He could try some Melanoidan Malt, it should help with that classic flavor.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
He could try some Melanoidan Malt, it should help with that classic flavor.

I've used Melanoidan malt a couple times and never found it to taste much like a decoction. I plan to experiment with taking the first runnings (maybe up to a gallon) and boiling it separately throughout the sparge and boil to try to get a decocted flavor without messing with a decoction.

[dparsons]

I've tried the Melanoidin malt and not been able to tell either. I'll also 2nd BrewDog's statements about the single infusion mash. The steps in the mash are only warranted if you are doing decoctions. This will certainly produce good beer, but is a lot of work and beyond what is recommended for most people's 2nd AG batch. Perhaps a few batches down the road you can revisit the decoction and compare.

[rlkbaylor]

Many thanks to all, I will be doing the single infusion.

Okto's are my favorite style & so I'm really trying to get a good one. I'm very critical of my homebrews. I''ve got about a dozen under my belt & have only been happy with one. Everyone who's tried my beers loves them, so I'm sure there good, but I really want to make a great one.

Hogie, I may follow your lead on the one gallon boil. Just to clarify you suggest taking the first gallon of runoff & begin boiling it during the sparge & continue boiling it seperate from the wort. Essentially having a one gallon boil & a 6 gallon boil going at the same time. Would you add hops to the one gallon?

I plan on doing a two hour boil, so would you maybe suggest a one hour one gallon boil then combining it with the 6G boil for the remaining hour?

[BrewDog]

I like Hogie's idea of a 'pre-boil' for you on this. Before I got my keg boil pot, I would often jump start my boil on first runnings only (batch sparge). This lets me hit hot break on the most concentrated wort while the brewpot still had a lot of headroom, giving me much less chance of a boilover.

As far as adding hops, I would add a quarter oz or so of your bittering hops, just to add protein nucleation points for better break material.

Boil the hell out of that portion. You'll get lots of malty, caramelly flavors from it and you will be quite pleased. Just don't let it burn and you'll be good to go.

Once it boils down, you should be able to add it into the main boil at some point. Just use your judgement. You'll have a good gut feeling on when you should add it to the main boil.

Good luck and let us know how this goes.

[rlkbaylor]

Great, Many thanks for the help. Really looking forward to Saturdays brew session (as long as the wife can hold off on having the baby).

I'll update you guys on how this goes. Thanks again.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by dparsons
I've tried the Melanoidin malt and not been able to tell either. I'll also 2nd BrewDog's statements about the single infusion mash. The steps in the mash are only warranted if you are doing decoctions. This will certainly produce good beer, but is a lot of work and beyond what is recommended for most people's 2nd AG batch. Perhaps a few batches down the road you can revisit the decoction and compare.

Actually, I lke using it in my IPAs and IIPAs

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by BrewDog

Boil the hell out of that portion. You'll get lots of malty, caramelly flavors from it and you will be quite pleased. Just don't let it burn and you'll be good to go.

because it's so thick (high gravity, like a decoction would be) it should be similar, but I don't know how much the grain material adds to the "decoction flavor"

[takhsh]

I am doing for more than one year now decoction mashing. I agree that its adds to my brewing another two painful hours. But the flavors that I get from these homebrew tell me to continue. Since last year I never brew without decoction.
If you are serious with the decoction, do yourself a favor and spend 40 dollars to get a stainless steel copper (or aluminum) clad bottom 16 liter pot. I bought mine from Wal Mart and I am doing the decoctions in this pot. Never had it scorch. It controls the heat very nicely. I do not know whether boiling the first high density wort would produce the flavors you are looking for. If it does, this is the way to go. It is much simpler.

I have found another interesting thing as I am doing decoctions... I think I have talked about it, in the past, but I like to repeat it. It is important to do a ten minute sacharization rest of the decocted part. So as you raise the temperature to get to upper 60's (C), the color and the viscosity of the mash changes to such a degree so you do not need to look at the temperature! these two changes (color and viscosity), will tell you when to stop the fire! I am saying this, as an attempt to explain the process. When the German women developed these processes, they did not have accurate thermometers. Yet they knew when to stop!

[BrewDog]

Originally posted by HogieWan
because it's so thick (high gravity, like a decoction would be) it should be similar, but I don't know how much the grain material adds to the "decoction flavor"

Yeah, I suspect that the unconverted starches and husk material cook a bit and this adds to the taste complexity in a way unlike any other method. Some of the starches must break apart and chemically react in ways that the amylase enzymes do not normally allow. I kind of think of decoction as a barley "cereal cooker". I think it really is not that different from cooking any other cereal adjunct before adding it to the mash.

Bottom line is it really does add to the malt complexity, but I still won't recommend it to a brewer who is only doing his 2nd AG batch. He should be concentrating on learning how to control his processes and to make his AG brewing consistent and predictable at this point. Then, he can add the harder-to-control stuff once he has the basic process down.

[rlkbaylor]

I bought the ingredients last night.

This morning when I woke up I was really feeling ill, so sick that I couldnt go to work.

Started my brewday @ 7.30. I'm boiling now. Very excited about the one gallon boil. It's boiling like crazy & I have noticed a color change.

Also, it looks like I may overshoot the SG to 1.069. Style max is 1.064. My efficiency is looking like 75%, pretty good I think.

Thanks to all for your help.