Saison Recipe questions

[Tom C]

Ok so here is a recipe i formulated that I am calling a saison. I had to substitute English two row for Belgina Pils because that is what I had. Otherwise curious to know what your thoughts are to this recipe. I am looking for a nice farmhouse ale with a bit of complexity between hops, malt, slight orange profile with a bit of pepper notes.

Any input would be greatful,

Rauscher Farmhouse

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

19-D Belgian & French Ale, Saison

Min OG: 1.055 Max OG: 1.080
Min IBU: 20 Max IBU: 45
Min Clr: 6 Max Clr: 12 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 10.00 Wort Size (Gal): 10.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 33.00
Anticipated OG: 1.086 Plato: 20.64
Anticipated SRM: 11.8
Anticipated IBU: 37.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 11.76 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.073 SG 17.73 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.8 26.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
3.0 1.00 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
3.0 1.00 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24
6.1 2.00 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
3.0 1.00 lbs. Candi Sugar (clear) Generic 1.046 1
3.0 1.00 lbs. Candi Sugar (amber) Generic 1.046 75
3.0 1.00 lbs. Flaked Rice 1.040 1

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.50 oz. Goldings - E.K. Pellet 4.75 34.7 60 min.
0.50 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 1.7 30 min.
0.50 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 0.6 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Oz Sweet Orange Peel Spice 15 Min.(boil)
1.00 Oz Sweet Orange Peel Spice 5 Min.(boil)
1.00 Oz Grains of Paradise Spice 0 Days(boil)


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP565 Belgian Saison I


Water Profile
-------------

Profile:
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 0.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 0.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 0.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 0.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 0.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 0.0 ppm

pH: 0.00


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 31.00
Water Qts: 35.65 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 8.91 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.15 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 170 Time: 5
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 40


Total Mash Volume Gal: 11.39 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



Notes
-----

addition of 2 teaspoons of white pepper at 10 minutes

[corkybstewart]

Looks very good to me, but I personally would leave the rice and corn out. That's strictly my personal preference.

[danno]

I'm also planning to make one. talking with people who have made these successfully in the past, the key to this beer is a hot fermentation. the Saison yeasts are notoriously temperamental and without a 80+ ºF fermentation are well known to quit early and end up sweet. (that's one of the reasons I haven't brewed it yet, I'm saving my nickels for two heater wraps for my carboys...)

it's all in the yeast...

[BitterRat]

Originally posted by danno
I'm also planning to make one. talking with people who have made these successfully in the past, the key to this beer is a hot fermentation. the Saison yeasts are notoriously temperamental and without a 80+ ºF fermentation are well known to quit early and end up sweet. (that's one of the reasons I haven't brewed it yet, I'm saving my nickels for two heater wraps for my carboys...)

it's all in the yeast...
Danno is correct, this yeast needs to be fermented warm. And I'll add that you will need a healthy, active starter for this. Saison yeast is a slow fermenter, so patience is in order. Alot of times it doesn't quit, it just slows down to a point where it doesn't seem to be doing anything. I made a Saison that I thought was to sweet, set it on the side and forgot about it, when I started sampling again, it was dry and highly carbonated, thankfully it was kegged, just releasing pressure got the carbonation in order and then it was delicious!!

[markaberrant]

I would sub the rice, corn and candy sugars for plain sugar, and cut it back to 3-4 lbs, it's just way too much adjuncts.

In fact, I'd change the mash to 148F for 90 minutes, cut the sugar back even further to 2lbs, and increase the base malt to keep the OG the same.

I think you have way too much white pepper or grains of paradise. Cut it back to 2 grams or 1 tsp. You've already got lots of spice coming from the yeast, you don't want to over do it.

You might be overdoing the sweet orange peel. Unless you've already made a beer using that much, I'd keep it to 1oz at 5 minutes, and you could "dry-hop" in the secondary if you think it needs more.

Also, plan on primary fermentation taking upwards of 4 weeks, and make sure you've got a method of keeping it warm.

[corkybstewart]

Last year I did 2 saisons, one normal gravity, spiced, and one very big, with tons of honey. The normal spiced one only took about 3 weeks in primary and was very good. It was gone in a month though(10 gallons). The big one took 2 months at 80-95F. It was delicious, but after 4 pints the keg leaked the rest into my kegerator overnight. The other keg is the one I put the Orval dregs in.
I agree with Mr. Abberant that you should go light on the spices. For my 10 gallon wit beer I used 1.5 teaspoons of coriander seed and paradise grains, and that's plenty.

[markaberrant]

Also keep in mind that this beer will likely end up at 10% abv or higher, so I wouldn't expect it to be drinkable anytime this summer. Just making sure you know what you are getting into!

I'm doing 2 Saisons this summer - 1 will be a hoppy, 1.055 all Pilsner malt + sugar, the other will be a 1.066 all malt with spices that will get a dose of apricots and Orval dregs (brett) in the secondary. I plan on conditioning the first for 2 months before bottling, the bigger one will get 3 months.

[HogieWan]

I'd also suggest cutting back on adjuncts and spices.

[Vienna Lager]

About a month ago our club did a group brew with 200 pounds of grain that was a mix of 2-row, 6-row and wheat with rice hulls to keep from getting a stuck sparge. Got two carboys and pitched one with WLP320 and the other WLP565. The latter has turned out to be a marvelouse taste experience of earthy, peppery, and spicy notes that is slightly sweet just like the description.

I would shy away from the adjuncts/spices as the ale will suffer tastewise from all those additions. Let the yeast do all the 'spicing' for you and I think you will be better off in the end.

[Tom C]

OK the brew went fine and hit a 20 brix so I was happy. Pitched a 1/2 gallo nculture of White Labs Saison I and it was fermenting well by the time I went to sleep on Friday. Open the closet and fruity spices galor on Saturday (very wonderful) and then on Sunday the Krausen dropped significantly and is all but disappeared now. From reading about this yeast, this seems common and people suggest keeping it the primary for a while longer. Has anyone worked with this yeast before to confirm?

Tom C

[markaberrant]

Originally posted by Tom C
OK the brew went fine and hit a 20 brix so I was happy. Pitched a 1/2 gallo nculture of White Labs Saison I and it was fermenting well by the time I went to sleep on Friday. Open the closet and fruity spices galor on Saturday (very wonderful) and then on Sunday the Krausen dropped significantly and is all but disappeared now. From reading about this yeast, this seems common and people suggest keeping it the primary for a while longer. Has anyone worked with this yeast before to confirm?

Tom C

Sounds like you need to warm it up. Get it as warm as possible and let it do it's thing for 3-4 weeks... it will need this time to completely finish a monster like that.

I made a 2.7 gallon batch of witbier on Saturday morning with a can of pre-hopped wheat extract, corriander, bitter orange peel and Wyeast 3724 (same as WL Saison I). The point of this brew is to have a light wheat beer ready for a family reunion, to show the homebrew club that pre-hopped extract can make a good beer (by covering it up with spices and flavourful yeast), and to build up a yeast cake for my Saisons.

I boiled for 15 minutes, cooled to 60F and pitched the yeast. It was probably too cool, because it took about 12 hours to start fermenting. On Sunday morning (24 hours after pitching), I attached a brew-belt to kick the heat up (ambient room temp is 72-78F). I checked it this morning (48 hours after pitching), and it is still going strong and smelling fantastic.

I plan to let it ferment for 2 weeks, and then straight into the bottle. I'll leave the brew belt on until the krausen falls, then move it somewhere cooler (60F) to start dropping the yeast.

[Tom C]

Originally posted by markaberrant
Sounds like you need to warm it up. Get it as warm as possible and let it do it's thing for 3-4 weeks... it will need this time to completely finish a monster like that.

I made a 2.7 gallon batch of witbier on Saturday morning with a can of pre-hopped wheat extract, corriander, bitter orange peel and Wyeast 3724 (same as WL Saison I). The point of this brew is to have a light wheat beer ready for a family reunion, to show the homebrew club that pre-hopped extract can make a good beer (by covering it up with spices and flavourful yeast), and to build up a yeast cake for my Saisons.

I boiled for 15 minutes, cooled to 60F and pitched the yeast. It was probably too cool, because it took about 12 hours to start fermenting. On Sunday morning (24 hours after pitching), I attached a brew-belt to kick the heat up (ambient room temp is 72-78F). I checked it this morning (48 hours after pitching), and it is still going strong and smelling fantastic.

I plan to let it ferment for 2 weeks, and then straight into the bottle. I'll leave the brew belt on until the krausen falls, then move it somewhere cooler (60F) to start dropping the yeast.

Temp has been at 70 since the beginning of fermentation. i don't see why the active Krausen would dissipate so quickly. Once started, fermentation would not just shut off.

Tom C

[markaberrant]

Originally posted by Tom C
Temp has been at 70 since the beginning of fermentation. i don't see why the active Krausen would dissipate so quickly. Once started, fermentation would not just shut off.

Tom C

Everything I have read about this yeast says:
- it is a slow working yeast
- elevated temperatures are required to get a complete fermentation
- the last 5-10 gravity points can take up to 2 weeks or more

Based on these characteristics, it sure sounds like yours conked out early due to low temp. Mine is around 85F at the moment and looks to have 3-4" of krausen.

[markaberrant]

Hey Tom, have you taken a gravity reading?

The krausen dropped on my witbier this morning, so I removed the brew belt. Took a gravity reading this afternoon, and it's down to 1.011 from 1.050. Taste is pretty darn good too!

I moved it into my 60F storage room. I might just bottle this weekend if enough yeast drops out by then.