In Defense of Budweiser

[chazwicke]

Saw this in a post on DC-Beer:

http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/10/in-praise-of-Budweiser-contains-extended-footnotes/

[HogieWan]

well written. however I will disagree with the statement that the recipe never changed. I have heard from reputable sources (can't find them at the moment - I will search later) that Budweiser recently started adding more hops to their beer to compete with the craft brews because they had toned down the hops over the years

[steveh]

It may be well written and expand on "facts" and history to a point, but it doesn't cover the biggest point; Budwesier tastes like swill. Maybe the author can find a PH reading on swill for us.

(it is not coincidental that nobody has yet marketed Barley Krispies)

Guess he's never heard of Grape Nuts.

Post Grape-Nuts is a low fat cereal made from natural whole grain wheat and barley and is an excellent source of whole grain. Delicious whole grain foods like Grape-Nuts are heart-healthy and provide naturally-occurring fiber and nutrients that you need every day.

S.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by HogieWan
well written. however I will disagree with the statement that the recipe never changed. I have heard from reputable sources (can't find them at the moment - I will search later) that Budweiser recently started adding more hops to their beer to compete with the craft brews because they had toned down the hops over the years

Yup. Budweiser's recipe has changed more than once (post prohibition). August Busch IV admitted as much recently to tinkering with the hopping rates.

Budweiser (and many, many other beers in existence) does contain "chemicals". Not all are sinister, however. There have been lists uncovered (a Miller Brewing list, IIRC) where most, if not all, ingredients that are allowed in beer have some natural source and legitimate brewing reason to be used. Still, they are "chemicals" and do exist in the brewing process.

Beer is not a craft but an invention? Purely an industry? There is no art in brewing? Only science? sigh...

:rolleyes:

[Robo]

I've talked to a couple of brewers now in the craft industry who used to work for A-B. Not exactly unbiased sources, but they claim Budweiser has change pretty drastically over the years.

[stronk]

I take issue with most of that article. Here are a few of the indefensible sentences which caught my eye on a brief read through:

"anti-Budweiserism, the form of mindless anti-Americanism"
Equating Budweiser with America? Please. This is an advertising victim if I ever heard one.

"It is an authentic, traditional product just like the ones CAMRA promotes"
CAMRA doesn't promote 'authentic, traditional products' just for their own sake: they promote them because they taste better than the modern ones. And how is Budweiser 'just like' a real ale? Bollocks!
Even if the recipe had not changed, why is an authentic product necessarily better than a new one? Anyone hankering after asbestos in their new house?

"it’s filtered to remove sediment (in other words, it’s a lager)"
Just plain wrong: filtering does not make a lager.

"Budweiser’s use of expensive Saaz hops"
You mean: 'Budweiser's use of cheap generic hop extract'?

"“craft brewers” are a newfangled modern invention and have very little to do with the traditions of the brewing industry"
Just because they weren't called microbreweries then, this doesn't mean that the modern equivalents can't attempt to do things traditionally (which they usually do; and are imitated by AB).

"Budweiser did not rip off the poor little Czech government. Budweiser did not steal the Czechs brand name. Budweiser is not a copy of Budvar. Budvar is not the original Budweiser. Budweiser does not use malicious lawsuits to keep the honest Czechs down. And a number of related issues. Ahem."
So it's the writer against the European systems of law. Arrogance?

Poorly researched rant.

[threecb]

Can't add much to what's already been stated by the previous posters, but this article is utter trash. Let'em keep drinking Bud. More good beer for me.

[BrewDog]

"Budweiser’s use of expensive Saaz hops"
You mean: 'Budweiser's use of cheap generic hop extract'?


StodBrew posted in this thread (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4766&perpage=15&highlight=best+hops&pagenumber=2) a couple years ago saying that he toured one of the California AB plants, and he said he thought the hops sample they let him look at were some of the best he had ever smelled/seen/etc. I trust his judgement, he's a professional brewmaster for an excellent California brewpub (so I've heard, I have personally never tasted his wares, but have heard from many on this board that his reputation is well deserved).

[hooky]

It's too bad they don't use more of them.

[zoom6zoom]

Originally posted by hooky
It's too bad they don't use more of them.

Well, if you put in more than one hop cone per fermenter, you might clog something up.

[stronk]

In which case I take it back. In fact, 'poorly researched rant' could equally well apply to my post! I also think that he's entitled to his opinion on the Budvar/AB case, but I respect the courts' judgement over his or the brewers'.

I stand by the rest of my comments.

On the subject of hops, I wouldn't be surprised if AB had reintroduced real hops to back up their advertising campaigns (after all, the savings using extract can't be that much if they're using so few hops per bottle of beer). I know that most, if not all, of the UK generic lager brewers use extracts.

[MeridianFC]

My opinion on this comes down to some tried and true latin:

Res Ipsa Loquitur

[ratman03]

Originally posted by BrewDog
StodBrew posted nin this thread (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4766&perpage=15&highlight=best+hops&pagenumber=2) a couple years ago saying that he toured one of the California AB plants, and he said he thought the hops sample they let him look at were some of the best he had ever smelled/seen/etc. I trust his judgement, he's a professional brewmaster for an excellent California brewpub (so I've heard, I have personally never tasted his wares, but have heard from many on this board that his reputation is well deserved).

No offense, but the key phrase in the statement is the "hops sample they let him look at". I mean, c'mon, do you REALLY think that A-B uses the best hops around? Again, not trying to sound like a jerk but I think you really have to consider the context of the statement.

[ratman03]

This article is probably a PR plant from A-B, because they are certainly not above propaganda like this. Who would waste their time defending swill like Bud, anyway?

[chazwicke]

You may be right about that.

[BrewDog]

Originally posted by ratman03
No offense, but the key phrase in the statement is the "hops sample they let him look at". I mean, c'mon, do you REALLY think that A-B uses the best hops around? Again, not trying to sound like a jerk but I think you really have to consider the context of the statement.

I understand what you are saying, but Stod did say he went into their HOP ROOM. That's not something that they would fill with good hops only to show visitors, as they have visitors all the time.

Look, I think nearly every A/B product is piss, too. I'm just saying that there actually is a lot more to their quality & quality control than meets the eye. We as home brewers should recognize that, even if we think that all that quality that they produce is wasted on the worst style of beer imaginable. Just think if they went ouf of their way and put their talents into making a GOOD, full bodied, hoppy, all malt beer. I'd drink it, and I know I'm not the only one around here that would, too.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by BrewDog
I understand what you are saying, but Stod did say he went into their HOP ROOM. That's not something that they would fill with good hops only to show visitors, as they have visitors all the time.

Says who? If I ran Budweiser that's exactly what I would do. :eek:

Look, I think nearly every A/B product is piss, too. I'm just saying that there actually is a lot more to their quality & quality control than meets the eye.

Yes, it's called massive amounts of chemical additives.

We as home brewers should recognize that, even if we think that all that quality that they produce is wasted on the worst style of beer imaginable. Just think if they went ouf of their way and put their talents into making a GOOD, full bodied, hoppy, all malt beer. I'd drink it, and I know I'm not the only one around here that would, too.

As much as I would welcome a good A-B product, I wouldn't drink anything they produce. I'll spend my money supporting real brewers who make honest products, not chemical fizz makers trying to muscle into the craft beer segment. I'm not trying to jump all over you or be a jerk here, but I don't think the products nor the methods of A-B are commendable.

[newportstorm]

A-B owns large hop fields in the Pac NW. Their Elk Mountain Hop Farm in Bonners Ferry, ID is one of the largest (if not the largest) hop farms in the world. Yet, it can only supply about 10% of A-B's hop needs each year. I highly doubt they pay big $$ to maintain this field as a dog and pony show.

So, they have to buy the bulk of their hops elsewhere. Do they include any extract? Maybe. Though, talking to some brewers, hop extracts can be quite useful in modern brewing and aren't as sinister or cheap as you might think - more consistent than anything. You'd probably be surprised how many brewers use them (as well as malt extract). Chimay, anyone?

[stronk]

I once had a bottle of extract (I ordered it with my first homebrew equipment). Because it's highly concentrated, it's pretty much just AA and a bit of flavour. No aroma. A bit like using instant coffee instead of fresh.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
A-B owns large hop fields in the Pac NW. Their Elk Mountain Hop Farm in Bonners Ferry, ID is one of the largest (if not the largest) hop farms in the world. Yet, it can only supply about 10% of A-B's hop needs each year. I highly doubt they pay big $$ to maintain this field as a dog and pony show.

So, they have to buy the bulk of their hops elsewhere. Do they include any extract? Maybe. Though, talking to some brewers, hop extracts can be quite useful in modern brewing and aren't as sinister or cheap as you might think - more consistent than anything. You'd probably be surprised how many brewers use them (as well as malt extract). Chimay, anyone?

Chimay uses extracts? :eek: (or should I have known this already?)

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
Chimay uses extracts? :eek: (or should I have known this already?)

Yup. Malt and hop extracts. They "hid" it somewhat for awhile. But they've admitted to using some for decades. Still tasty beers, so I don't care much.

[Stonch]

the legal judgements may have been coloured by the prejudices of beer snobs for a beer that wasn’t Budweiser

Ridiculous. As if judges ruling on such an important trademark dispute would be influenced by "beer snobs".

An insult to European legal systems!

[danno]

Originally posted by stronk
I once had a bottle of extract (I ordered it with my first homebrew equipment). Because it's highly concentrated, it's pretty much just AA and a bit of flavour. No aroma. A bit like using instant coffee instead of fresh. then it worked just as it was supposed to. bittering additions (60 min and more) don't ever add any aroma, it gets boiled off...



Bud and Coors use real hops. Miller uses a hop extract, that's how they can get away with using clear bottles.

Chimay also uses plain sugar, are we to throw them under the bus too?

I love the term "Chemical Fizz". it implies all sorts of horrors. well, as a homebrewer, I must be making chemical fizz, too. Phosphoric Acid, Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid, Isopropyl Alcohol. nasty stuff... guess what? that's some of what goes into my no-rinse sanitizer, Star-San. so, I guess it goes into my beer, too...

[MeridianFC]

I think the term "chemical fizz" is used to disparage things that go into the beer not the items that are used to clean equipment, even though in your case it might end up in the beer (which seems a frightening concept to me). After all I use chemicals to clean my kitchen but I don't want any of that stuff in my food.

As has been pointed out before adjunct can be both descriptor and perjorative depending on the person and depending on the ingredient. I've had beer that used corn that has been outstanding (probably more beer than even I realize). I would never knowingly drink something that used artificial stabilizers or anything that isn't closer to nature than the labratory.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by danno


I love the term "Chemical Fizz". it implies all sorts of horrors. well, as a homebrewer, I must be making chemical fizz, too. Phosphoric Acid, Dodecylbenzene Sulfonic Acid, Isopropyl Alcohol. nasty stuff... guess what? that's some of what goes into my no-rinse sanitizer, Star-San. so, I guess it goes into my beer, too...

Well that's your choice for using a non-rinse steriliser...personally I just rinse my equipment...don't really understand why you don't?

[newportstorm]

It seems phosphoric acid is used as a sanitizer for brewing equipment. But there is also a food grade solution of phosphoric acid that brewers can and do use to treat their water with.

[stronk]

Stonch: rinse water (depending on your supply and plumbing) can harbour bacteria, which could give you an infected batch. The no-rinse sanitizers are designed so that the chemical level in the beer is below health recommendation limits and undetectable in the taste. Though, I have to admit, I rinse too.

then it worked just as it was supposed to. bittering additions (60 min and more) don't ever add any aroma, it gets boiled off...
I did understand that that was what it was supposed to do. I'm commenting on the fact that a beer brewed entirely with hop extracts is likely to be using them just for their bitterness and so must either be brewing a malt-dominated beer (combined with yeast profile, of course) or a tasteless beer.

[BPProb]

Wow. Interesting (if ridiculous) article. and some of the responses have been fantastic. I'll leave the talk of brewing, and quality control to those who know better.

At my bar, we don't serve AB products at all. and for the most part, its not because of quality (I mean really, InBev just signed over their rights to North American distribution to AB. that means we had to drop Leffe, Hoegaarden, Bass, Stella (which is crap anyhow) and other beers of a "decent quality") - not only that, the famed "Budvar" brewery is now distributed through AB as well, with a stipulation in their contract that says no lawsuits shall be affected (e?) by said distribution agreement).
We disagree w/ AB's distribution practices, business practices, and Strong Arm methods.
So not only do they make CRAP beer, they are shady too.....

Look at what happened to Goose Island, Rolling Rock (yes, I know it was ALWAYS schwill) and even, to a certain degree, Red Hook.
________
Marijuana Sativa (http://strainindex.com)

[Jeff]

Originally posted by BPProb
Look at what happened to Goose Island, Rolling Rock (yes, I know it was ALWAYS schwill) and even, to a certain degree, Red Hook.

We've had many discussions regarding Red Hook and Goose Island. I believe the consensus has always been that the beer quality has not been affected and the distribution is better.

Why is that when a business acts like a business we call the practices shady?

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by BPProb
Look at what happened to Goose Island, Rolling Rock (yes, I know it was ALWAYS schwill) and even, to a certain degree, Red Hook.

Please explain what happened to them for those of us that might not know.

[Chuckee]

Originally posted by BPProb

We disagree w/ AB's distribution practices, business practices, and Strong Arm methods.
So not only do they make CRAP beer, they are shady too.....


Look at what happened this week in Alabama.

http://betweenthelinks.com/2007/05/31/eb-mcclain-a-lobbyists-phone-call-away/

Reportedly, Birmingham Budweiser turned the screws to kill legislation allowing freedom to buy gourmet beer.

I feel like going Buford T. Pusser on their ass.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Chuckee
Look at what happened this week in Alabama.

http://betweenthelinks.com/2007/05/31/eb-mcclain-a-lobbyists-phone-call-away/

Reportedly, Birmingham Budweiser turned the screws to kill legislation allowing freedom to buy gourmet beer.

I feel like going Buford T. Pusser on their ass.

Sorry to hear/read about that. Nothing new about a business owner wanting to protect their territory from competition. Bigger problem is the "public servant" that allows it to happen. Sold his soul for pennies on the dollar.

You can be angry with A-B all you want, but they don't make anything happen. It's people like your esteemed Senators that allow it to happen.

[Chuckee]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Sorry to hear/read about that. Nothing new about a business owner wanting to protect their territory from competition. Bigger problem is the "public servant" that allows it to happen. Sold his soul for pennies on the dollar.

You can be angry with A-B all you want, but they don't make anything happen. It's people like your esteemed Senators that allow it to happen.


The Senator is the whore and A-B is the John. Neither can exist without the other.

Look at it anyway you please. I hold both equally culpable.

A-B will never get another dime from me.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Chuckee
The Senator is the whore and A-B is the John. Neither can exist without the other.

Look at it anyway you please. I hold both equally culpable.

A-B will never get another dime from me.

Many people see nothing wrong with legalized prostitution.

Doesn't surprise me that any Joe Blow business owner would resort to bribery to hold onto business.

Nor does it surprise me that an elected public servant would accept it - though it should and does disgust me.

[chazwicke]

I think you should copy that article and forward it along with your opinion to the Senator's office for a response. I think all of the Alabamans should do the same. I am a firm believer in holding your elected representatives responsible and also lobbying or putting pressure on them via emails, snailmail or phone calls. Or even a personal meeting. In VA we have lobbied and won certain legislation that is good for the small brewing industry and wineries. Also witness the recent campaigns to POP the Cap in NC, SC and GA. I've even gone so far as writing news organizations in other States. Perhaps a letter to that paper would be useful as a pressure tactic. I implore you to contact the named representative with a copy of that article for a response. I'd even cc other representatives offices. If you do, Please post their responses here.

[Chuckee]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I implore you to contact the named representative with a copy of that article for a response.

Oh, we will.

[Chuckee]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Many people see nothing wrong with legalized prostitution.

Doesn't surprise me that any Joe Blow business owner would resort to bribery to hold onto business.

Nor does it surprise me that an elected public servant would accept it - though it should and does disgust me.

Sure. I actually believe prostitution should be legal. If there’s no victim, there should be no crime. The whore-John comparison just seemed to work so well…

Here’s my major problem with the occurrence, it’s one thing to grease a palm to eliminate a bottleneck, B’ham Bud is “buying” the police power of gov’t to limit their competition.

A pox on Budweiser.

[Stonch]

If Goose Island IPA was better before A-B got involved I'd be pretty impressed, because right now I think it's a lovely beer.

[steveh]

Why would it be? A-B has absolutely NO hand in Goose Island's brewing. The idea that A-B "bought" Goose is getting so out of hand, an old friend/beer distributor from the middle of Wisconsin even swears it's true -- I told him I'd heard it from Greg Hall's personal input that it's bunk, and he still wouldn't believe me.

S.

[MeridianFC]

I think the problems many people talk about with your Redhooks, Goose Islands, Dogfish Heads has to do with expansion rather than corporate structure, though if the corporate structure was sticking it's neb into the brewing process in unacceptable ways there would certainly be an issue. Most of the breweries that I'm familiar with that have scaled up from brewpub size to tens-hundreds of thousands of barrels have gone through a rough patch.

I remember drinking Red Hook ESB in Seattle in the early 90s and finding it to be a stunning beer. They then scaled up, prior to AB's involvement I might add, and the beer really suffered. It rebounded somewhat but has never attained the depth of flavor it once had. That said for $5.99-6.99/six or the occasional $20/case it's often one of the best deals going. In any case almost all of the micros I know that are doing any sort of major scale distribution have had trouble, taste wise, at some point.

[BPProb]

Alright, so throwing my Red Hook statement out (sorry for mis-representing that part) lets remember that I wasn't talking about Beer Quality (the red hook thing was just an emotional angry thing)

What I was talking about with Goose Island, and Rolling Rock, is something that may be specifically limited to the region I live in.
Between portland and seattle, I can remember over 20 bars that served goose island regularly, and easily over 100 that served rolling rock. since the Buy-outs, that number has dropped to maybe 3 for goose island, and about 25-30 for Rolling Rock. now, I know I live in the northwestern United States, where people's attitudes about Corporate Sales are very .... biased... but ultimately I can't see how thats helped their business at all. when Heineken was distributed by AB for a bit, their increase was marginal. when they resumed semi-independent distributorship, they showed an increase of 5% over the ensuing three years (successively) - while I can't 100% say that this statistic is entirely accurate, it came from our Hieneken Rep, head of marketing for their Washington State area.
*shrug* as far as AB not being to blame for someone selling out, I'd place the blame somewhere in the middle.
________
Herbal Health (http://herbalhealthshop.com)

[steveh]

Originally posted by BPProb
I can remember over 20 bars that served goose island regularly, and easily over 100 that served rolling rock. since the Buy-outs, that number has dropped to maybe 3 for goose island, and about 25-30 for Rolling Rock.

Take a read on this article, I think your local distributor is dropping the ball.

http://www.suntimes.com/business/412999,CST-FIN-goose04.article

S.