In Praise of Dry Yeast

[MmmBeer]

After a recent reply by hogiewan I would just like to try and open some of your eyes to the beauty that is dry yeast by listing some of it's merits (add some if you like):

1) It stores easily and it is die-hard.
2) No starter!
3) Excellent flavor profiles and much more specialization than you think; there is american ale (which is, in my opinion, better and cleaner than the liquid equivalent), english ale, belgian ale, belgian wit and lager yeasts available just to name a few.
4) Yeast cake = solid. Makes racking easier and makes a clearer final product.
5) Cheap!!! Generally about 1/5 the price of liquid yeast.
6) Fermentation starts FAST so little worry about getting an infection from lag times.
7) Because of 1 you can stock-pile it; have it handy, and you never have a "o crap I forgot the yeast" brew-day.

---Feel free to add anything additional to this post and P.S. I think danstar owes me some $$ or something (how bout a packet of s-33)--

[MichaelM]

wooohoo another convert!!

I started out using liquid yeasts then when I had two packs in the same order both turn up bad I had to run out and get a dry packet (didnt have another 7 bucks to spend on a packet after having 14bucks worth dead) after being impressed on the ease of use I have went to dry yeast almost exclusivly unless its a specialty yeast they just dont offer in dry...


I LOVE the dry yeast... there is a very good selection of it now too!!

[guildofevil]

I love dry yeast. It's cheap, so I usually buy two sachets of any yeast I am looking for, in case one of them fails.

As dry yeast is actually very reliable, (I've only ever had one dead yeast sachet, in the many brews I have done), I now have a stockpile of about ten yeast sachets, covering six different yeast strains, in the fridge.

It means that if I end up with an unexpected day off (as often happens, with the on call/time in lieu arrangement I have with my work), I can just look at the ingredients I have available and cook up a beer from available ingredients, without having to prepare a starter ahead of time.

“What have we here, then? Nottingham, Windsor, S04, US05, T58 and Brewferm Blanche. I think I'll make a Wit Beer today.”

[Mad Scientist]

I now use dry frequently.
Though I have never been burned by liquid yeast, the price certainly gets me.
And the credit in fact does go to Hogie, if he had not espoused dry yeast so much, I probably would not have bothered.

[HogieWan]

Thanks for the nods, guys - I'm just a cheap bastard who likes to question conventional wisdom. I always read the dry yeast wasn't as good, but my first brew was one of my best and I used dry for it. I tried s-05 (us-56 at the time) when it was first released and have been using dry since.

[MichaelM]

believe it or not muntons premium gold is an excelent yeast pretty basic non intrusive profile and when it flocculats it litterally forms a solid VERY jelly like layer.....

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by MichaelM
believe it or not muntons premium gold is an excelent yeast pretty basic non intrusive profile and when it flocculats it litterally forms a solid VERY jelly like layer.....

that's what was in my first beer and an american amber I did a while back. Did great both times.

[infomercial]

i have had better experiences with dry yeast compared to liquid yeast, but i have only done a few batches. my next will be with some us-56 i have in the fridge.

[gallowd7]

I bought into the liquid is better prognostications and I'm not doubting it. However, after a couple brews that were less than satisfactory I jumped back off the liquid wagon and landed on dry. Was tired of wasting the extra $4 on issues that were pre-yeast pitch. Long story, but got back into my groove and went back to liquid and I'm happy to say that I believe I'll be returning once again to dry.
Now, anyone know where I can get a 1kg brick of S-04?

[Mad Scientist]

In terms of liquid vs dry, I feel that they are pretty much equal....neither one is better than the other.

I cannot say that I have ever had bad liquid yeast, and the two or so infected (but kinda drinkable) batches that I have made in the past have been related to sanitation issues. I have had sluggish yeast, and one batch that just would not carbonate, but nothing excessive.

[zoom6zoom]

One of the drawbacks of dry was that for a long time there were very limited varieties available. This has changed greatly over the past few years. I've used both liquid and dry and can't say I've noticed any difference in the finished product.

Dry yeast certainly does have good keeping properties - I found a jar of dry bread yeast in the freezer that I had forgotten about. It was seven years old and still worked fine.

[untothee]

I've had problems using liquid. Not knocking it but I do prefer Dry.

I've had beter success using dry. And hey, the price compared to liquid allows me to purchase a few extra pounds of grain or whatever.

[brazilhead]

Why are there still so many varieties of yeast unavailable in dry? Is the market still too small to justify the investment? Any word on future releases of other dry varieties like Kölsch, Belgian, etc?
For those of us living far from the big homebrewing areas, dry is the only reasonable option.

[Mad Scientist]

IK would say it is just a matter of time....fermentis may have started something by offering so many varities of dry yeast.

[HarkJohnny]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
In terms of liquid vs dry, I feel that they are pretty much equal....neither one is better than the other.

in terms of usage maybe, but $1.75 for safale vs $6.95 for the same Wyeast/White Labes when it does the same thing... there is a big difference!

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by brazilhead
Why are there still so many varieties of yeast unavailable in dry? Is the market still too small to justify the investment? Any word on future releases of other dry varieties like Kölsch, Belgian, etc?

t-58 from fermentis is the Chimay yeast. There are also some available in large bricks for commercial brewers, but not in homebrew sizes. Ive heard of people splitting a brick among a few people.

[MmmBeer]

Fermentis S-33 and T-58 are both available in individual packets through Austin Homebrew Supply. The S-33 is good for Belgian wits and trappists and as Hogie mentioned the T-58 is the Chimay yeast (abbey/trappist style). Between these two and the traditional american and english ale yeasts you can develop a lot of variety.

[darylM]

A lot of the dry yeasts can wear many hats. SA-04 can be used for any British Ale. I know in liquid form, there are 3 or more strains for Brit Ale alone! At Austin Homebrew, I have seen dry yeast for hefewiessien or wits. There is less variety but the yeast can be used for more beers.

[bluesguitar85]

is there a good website which lists the available dry yeasts with their liquid counterparts? I have used liquid exclusively thus far and i would really like some sort of conversion table so i could convert a recipe and compare results...

[dparsons]

Wet yeast is superior! That is why I hydrate mine before adding it to the fermentor. :D

[BrewDog]

Originally posted by bluesguitar85
is there a good website which lists the available dry yeasts with their liquid counterparts? I have used liquid exclusively thus far and i would really like some sort of conversion table so i could convert a recipe and compare results...

I'd start at the Fermentis web site (http://www.fermentis.com), since they are the new guys on the block with these newer dry versions of the strains.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by dparsons
Wet yeast is superior! That is why I hydrate mine before adding it to the fermentor. :D

I'm with you there!

[danno]

I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent here. I've tried a couple of different dry yeasts and while they make good beer, they don't make great beer. I'm just not that impressed...

when consistent contest winners tell me that dry yeast will win awards, then I'll think about making the switch.

and variety? Fermentis has five strains. Wyeast has (by my admittedly quick/haphazard count) 47 regular strains and a dozen more seasonal ones. some variety...

[gallowd7]

Don't disagree one bit Danno. I've tried to make great beer and all I can do is make really good beer. This is of course coming from people who are drinking it and hopefully not just being nice to get another pint.
When I have the time to split a liquid pack up or dump on the yeast cake I think liquid will get me closer to style. However, as has been said before, on a one and done basis, the cost vs. quality ratio is greater for dry.

And like many married homebrewers, "Honey, I made this for under $15". Goes a long way when It's time to drop big $ on three new taps.
Cheers

[Mad Scientist]

Gallowd7 and danno are putting the points where it matters, but I will say, for example, that using the Safale 5 (was US-56) produces the same results as Wyeast 1056 and White Labs WLP-001.

Hopefully we will see the dry yeast improve in quality and diversify in strain availability in the near future.


edit: Maybe we will see Wyeast and White Lab start making their yeast available dry......

[HarkJohnny]

Originally posted by gallowd7

And like many married homebrewers, "Honey, I made this for under $15" Goes a long way when It's time to drop big $ on three new taps.
Cheers

amen brother!

the argument for a 30¢ bottle of beer I make myself -vs- the avg $1.30 bought at the store says alot too.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by HarkJohnny
amen brother!


amen from me as well. This was the reason I tried it. I was using 1056 for almost all my batches anyway.

[MmmBeer]

Me too. I found myself using the "clean" strains a lot and really the safale american is as good as any of the liquid versions.

[Yeastmeister]

Well, I'm in the liquid camp. Of course it helps that I'm a yeast farmer. I only ever buy 1 pack/vial of whatever yeast I want, liquid or dry, culture it out, and add it to my library. When I want to use it again, I just reculture up a starter.

I will be the first to admit that you can make some awesome brews with dry yeasts, but I believe that if your into competitions, the only way your going to match some of the less mainstream styles is by using the closest (if not the exact) yeast that your shooting for.

As far as fast starting fermentations go, if you make good starter, with any yeast, your going to get fermentation going very quickly.

[MichaelM]

oh I agree(as I believe alot of the other dry yeast users will as well) that there are just some styles you cannot do yet with dry yeast.... but I would have to guess that 75% of brews can be done just as well with dry as they can liquid and save a bit money... without the fuss of starters etc etc....

hell the wit I just brewed(yea I know there is a dry strain or two out there) I used liquid.... but for a regular old stout or ipa or whatever its dry yeast for me :) hell the 6 bucks you save is damned near half the cost of another brew LOL

[dparsons]

I'd like to find a better dry English Ale yeast than the Safale S-04 (and wet equivalents). Its OK, but there are better choices (to my taste) on the White Labs and Wyeast lists. I've relegated it to a backup when my 1st choice tanks mid-batch.

[BrewDog]

To me, this is yet another one of those stupid "religious wars" that I choose not to participate in (like what computer languages is better -- Hogie you know what I'm talking about here)

Different tools exist for different jobs. Some tools can do the same job, but not as well. This is like tightening a nut with pliers.
While you CAN do it, it would be silly for someone to put the head on their engine block using them -- as you really should be using a torque wrench or risk all kinds of problems. Sure, the pliers get the nuts on there tight for a lot less money, but the quality of the job just isn't the same.

1) A single packet of dry is much cheaper than a single packet packet of wet.
2) There are a many wet yeast strains available. Each produce a distinct tasting beer. There are only a few dry strains available. Simply put, all of the subtle flavors offered by wet strains are simply not available in dry form. Some of the most popular ones are, but certainly not all.
3) You can propagate, split, and reuse wet to get your costs down, if you are careful about sanitation and want to take the time to do so. You can split, and resplit to get the cost on a per batch basis to less than half that of dry yeast. But, this takes a lot of time and effort. Dry yeast also doesn't require a starter, which saves time, too.

So, like so many things, we have time, money, and quality from which in many cases we can only choose 2:

If we want high quality and want to save time, we buy a liquid smack pack for a lot of money.

If we want high quality and want to save money, we propagate from a liquid smack pack which takes a lot of time.

If we want to save time and money, we buy dry but don't get all the subtle flavor choices we may desire (ie, possibly lower quality).

[NzDan]

Started using dry's after using wyeast for some time, my last pack of wyeast cost me $8 and ive done 20 brews from it, cheap and a bit time consuming.
The dry yeasts all seem to have the same dry, stale,taste.

[danno]

Originally posted by BrewDog
To me, this is yet another one of those stupid "religious wars" that I choose not to participate in (like what computer languages is better -- Hogie you know what I'm talking about here)

Different tools exist for different jobs. Some tools can do the same job, but not as well. lol... a similar observation is "when the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails"...

my perspective is from that of a competition judge, so take that with its own grain of salt. a brewer may be very happy with a beer that scores 38 points (I would be too) using dry yeast. but that same beer with the right liquid yeast would probably be a 42, and get you a ribbon...

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Originally posted by BrewDog
To me, this is yet another one of those stupid "religious wars" that I choose not to participate in (like what computer languages is better -- Hogie you know what I'm talking about here)

Infidels!!! :D

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Otis_The_Drunk
Infidels!!! :D

Apostate Heretic!!!

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Anti-Christ!!!!!!

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Different tools exist for different jobs. Some tools can do the same job, but not as well. This is like tightening a nut with pliers.
While you CAN do it, it would be silly for someone to put the head on their engine block using them -- as you really should be using a torque wrench or risk all kinds of problems. Sure, the pliers get the nuts on there tight for a lot less money, but the quality of the job just isn't the same.


The purpose of this thread is that most homebrewers are just tightening bolts and have no need for an expensive torque wrench. There are so many options in malts and hops (and even water), that I don't need to add more variables in the yeast - especially when it adds considerable cost.

I don't want to say that all batches are nails, either - I use liquid when I need it, but I normally use s-05 and sometimes s-04

[MmmBeer]

I challenge you to tell the difference between the dry american ale yeast and it's liquid counterparts. Go on.

[danno]

Originally posted by MmmBeer
I challenge you to tell the difference between the dry american ale yeast and it's liquid counterparts. Go on. I've done just that. I was brewing 10 gallons of cream ale, and because I didn't have time for my usual process of stepping up one smack pack to pitch into two carboys, I used a pack of S-05 in one and the smack-pack of 1056 in the other. side by side, same wort, same temp, same fermentation time. and guess what? you can definitely taste the difference. the S-05 has a bit of a flabby, rubbery taste to it, like the drying process introduced a bit of autolysis...

now in a big IPA, you probably can't tell the difference. but use it in a cream ale, or something else lighter and more delicate, there is definitely a difference...

[dparsons]

Originally posted by BrewDog
To me, this is yet another one of those stupid "religious wars" that I choose not to participate in

Seems to me you participated. ;)

I don't see it as a war. Your point is exactly on the mark - "choose two." Some people just seem to like to discuss that exact thing at length every 3 or 4 months and espouse their favorite 2.

[Carl Spakler]

$1.75 for dry / ~50 bottles = $.04 per bottle
$6.95 for liquid / ~50 bottles = $.14 per bottle

IMO, it's not worth the debate for $.10/beer difference, buy whatever you want to brew with.

[Old CW4]

I live in New Mexico a ways south of Albuquerque. It's been running 95 to 100 F here for the past few weeks. I made the mistake of ordering some liquid wine yeast from a supplier in an adjacent state. Problem was, they shipped it UPS ground and it took four or five days to get here. It was 99 degrees the day the UPS truck pulled in about four p.m. The driver handed me the box and it was H-O-T, almost too hot to hold comfortably! There were two tubes of hot yeast and one equally hot cold pak in the carton.

UPS trucks are not air conditioned and with that dark brown van chugging around in our New Mexico sun I'll bet it was at least 130 or more in the cargo area! Anyway, the yeast was toast. I tried to start both tubes with various starter solutions but no go, it was just plain dead and inert.

I won't order from that supplier again and for sure no more liquid yeast unless it's winter. So, $14 down the drain but at least I learned something.

[EBW]

Yeah it's kind of a crap shoot with the liquid yeast out here although I have always recieved viable yeast from Midwest and Northern Brewer. However I must add, I have never ordered liquid yeast in the summer, but I have in all other seasons. That is about to change however as I have just placed an order for some wyeast packs with a couple of AG kits. I only hope they get here very quickly.
I too use alot of dry yeast. I figure that even though it may not hit a style exactly, my beer is closer than anything that has to hitch a ride on a ship, a train, a truck, sit in a distribution house, ride annother truck and then sit in a well lit cooler until I buy it.

[dparsons]

The suppliers don't have much option as the customer directs them how to ship. They can put ice in but that doesn't work for 5 days. This time of year it need to be 2nd day (or faster) or shipped in a mini-cooler (not a bad idea). I've made sure to buy local during the summer as the LHBS store in Albuquerque gets larger (and cooler) quanties in every week. Last summer I had some batches I got half online (because I couldn't get them fresh from the LHBS) and half in town for just this reason. Fall through Spring works fine. If you are stuck ordering your yeast, make sure you order so that the ship day is Monday or Tuesday so it doesn't sit in a warehouse over the weekend.

Welcome to the boards CW. There are a few of use here in this enchanted land.

[EBW]

[i] If you are stuck ordering your yeast, make sure you order so that the ship day is Monday or Tuesday so it doesn't sit in a warehouse over the weekend.[/B]


Good idea.

[Old CW4]

Thanks for the comments, guys, and nice to meet dparsons in Albq.

As an additional comment, I would hope the suppliers would also recognize the problem and advise their customers accordingly in hot weather....? I'm new to home brewing and had no idea a supplier would ship me a perishable product in this way when they must know it would spoil or at least be very risky. Had I been advised by them I would gladly have paid extra for more rapid shipping and/or additional cold paks or other safeguards. Guess it comes down to "let the buyer beware." However, this buyer will buy elsewhere in the future and that supplier lost what could have been a long term customer.

I occasionally buy perishable medications and shots for pets and livestock. Those suppliers are very careful about advising of potential spoilage problems and ensure their products are viable when received. They will also immediately replace products that do arrive in bad condition at no extra charge. I suggest the home brew/wine suppliers need to take the same approach.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Old CW4
I live in New Mexico a ways south of Albuquerque. It's been running 95 to 100 F here for the past few weeks. I made the mistake of ordering some liquid wine yeast from a supplier in an adjacent state. Problem was, they shipped it UPS ground and it took four or five days to get here. It was 99 degrees the day the UPS truck pulled in about four p.m. The driver handed me the box and it was H-O-T, almost too hot to hold comfortably! There were two tubes of hot yeast and one equally hot cold pak in the carton.

UPS trucks are not air conditioned and with that dark brown van chugging around in our New Mexico sun I'll bet it was at least 130 or more in the cargo area! Anyway, the yeast was toast. I tried to start both tubes with various starter solutions but no go, it was just plain dead and inert.

I won't order from that supplier again and for sure no more liquid yeast unless it's winter. So, $14 down the drain but at least I learned something.

You should contact white labs, I'll bet they'll do something.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Old CW4
Thanks for the comments, guys, and nice to meet dparsons in Albq.

As an additional comment, I would hope the suppliers would also recognize the problem and advise their customers accordingly in hot weather....? I'm new to home brewing and had no idea a supplier would ship me a perishable product in this way when they must know it would spoil or at least be very risky. Had I been advised by them I would gladly have paid extra for more rapid shipping and/or additional cold paks or other safeguards. Guess it comes down to "let the buyer beware." However, this buyer will buy elsewhere in the future and that supplier lost what could have been a long term customer.

I occasionally buy perishable medications and shots for pets and livestock. Those suppliers are very careful about advising of potential spoilage problems and ensure their products are viable when received. They will also immediately replace products that do arrive in bad condition at no extra charge. I suggest the home brew/wine suppliers need to take the same approach.

Given the comments you made about the supplier, I am aware of who it is, and I am suprised--and not suprised, all at the same time. They are very busy, and usually do not have time to address such issues, unless you ask specifically, then they would advise you about it--if we are discussing the same supplier, be advised that they are one of the larger internet/mail suppliers. With the volume of business they do, there is a trade off with the amount of personlized attention you get to get the prices (including shipping) and variety that they offer.
Though I am suprised it took that long to get to you, so it must have gone over the weekend. I checked the shipping map, and it says two days from their location to anywhere in NM--the same as me. Give them a shot again, this time order on Monday or Tues. If you call them, they are usually very good about their servoce, see what they will do. I have had instances where they shorted me 1/4 pound of malt, and it was shipped out the day I brought it to their attention, no agruement--no extra shipping. I have also had another instance where I placed an order, then found out that I was to be out of town when it was due to arrive, I called, so they moved it up in line, and got it to me a day earlier than it was supposed to arrive--so it would not sit on my porch in the hot sun for a couple of days.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Carl Spakler
$1.75 for dry / ~50 bottles = $.04 per bottle
$6.95 for liquid / ~50 bottles = $.14 per bottle

IMO, it's not worth the debate for $.10/beer difference, buy whatever you want to brew with.

And if you re-pitch, then you can half that cost

[Otis_The_Drunk]

true, I pitch as long as the yeast will hold out. I've know some brewers to pitch 4 - 5 times on the same yeast.... I would if I had enough grain to do that many batches in a row.

I hear that Bass Ale has been using the same yeast for over 100 years.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Otis_The_Drunk
I hear that Bass Ale has been using the same yeast for over 100 years.

We are too; its just somebody else that keeps the propogation going - clean, healthy, and optimized. If your operation is big enough it pays to keep it up yourself.