Pilsner Ale?

[nickhorvath12]

Hello all, I was just wondering if any one has ever tried this before - and how it would compare to a lagered pilsner using the same recipe. Here's what I'm shooting for:

(**Batch Size: 3.5 Gallons**)

5.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 71.4 %
1.50 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 21.4 %
0.25 lb Cara Pils (3.0 SRM) Grain 3.6 %
0.25 lb Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM) Grain 3.6 %

0.50 oz Centennial [10.00%] (60 min) Hops 24.9 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (20 min) Hops 7.2 IBU
0.50 oz Saaz [4.00%] (20 min) Hops 6.0 IBU
0.25 oz Hallertauer [4.80%] (7 min) Hops 1.6 IBU
0.25 oz Saaz [4.00%] (7 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
0.25 oz Saaz [4.00%] (0 min) Hops -

Yeast: Safale US-05 (US-56)

Estimated Original Gravity: 1.055 SG (1.044-1.056 SG)
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.013-1.017 SG)
Estimated Color: 6.0 SRM (3.5-6.0 SRM)
Bitterness: 41.2 IBU (35.0-45.0 IBU)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.3 % (4.2-5.4 %)


I know the centennials look out of place but I was hoping for that tiny hint of citrus that you get from them, mixed with the more noble hop flavors and aromas you would expect in a pilsner.

I went with the US-05 for its clean crisp qualities, which will hopefully emulate the lagering process. Any suggestions or recommendations are very welcomed!

[twilliams1223]

I'll have to let you know in a few weeks. Just bottled a CAP fermented with US-05. Ferm temp was mid 60's for 10 days. Cold secondary for 3 weeks. Clear as a bell w/ malty taste and good hops flavor and aroma.. Used Hallertauer and Tettnang for hops on a similar schedule.

[nickhorvath12]

I hope I'll be able to get my primary temperatures down that low, I'm going to give it a shot using a bucket full of cold water. Definitely keep me updated on your CAP, though for the life of me I can not figure out what that stands for. I'd like to know how the ale yeast stacks up to the lager yeast. Did you use the same recipe for both batches?

I picked up some whirlfloc tablets after my last batch had some clarity issues, so I'm hoping that those along with colder fermenting temperatures and the US-05 will make something pilsner-esque, although I'm sure it will be drinkable at the very least.

[twilliams1223]

CAP=Classic American Pilsner

I split a 10 gallon batch w/ the 2 yeasts.

I use a couple of converted Ice Cube cooles w/ the dome lids and frozen 2 liter bottles of water to regulate the temp of the wort during fermentation. Have been doing this for a few months. works pretty well, although the colder the air temp in the garage is the better. Bout done w/ lager season since it is starting to get up to 85+ here in N. Carolina.

Also try using polyclear and gelatin during secondary along with the cold conditioning. I add them about 5 days before I want to bottle. Works well clearing up chill haze, etc.

Good luck

The recipe, Prohibition Pilsner, I used is on my BLOG posted 12/19/06. Also some rough pics of the swamp cooler

[B_rad1969]

Your recipie looks similar to mine. Mine was good. Use Bud. and Coors as a baseline. If yours is 10x better then you did good.

[twilliams1223]

If your refering to mine. It rocked. even SWMBO liked it. Brewed a 3.2% version for the in-laws to drink. They thought that BMC had come out w/ a new brew. Faked them out and served in a glass instead of a can:rolleyes:

[B_rad1969]

No, Nicks looked a lot like mine.

[nickhorvath12]

Originally posted by B_rad1969
No, Nicks looked a lot like mine.


Did you use US-05? I have been using S-04 for my last 4 batches, so I'm excited to see how this strain compares in terms of flavor and its general fermenting characteristics.

S-04 would usually start fermenting for me within a few hours and be down to FG in around 2 days. It also would usually drop out cleanly and leave the beer very clear. Except for the last time, which was my first all-grain batch so I don't know if I can blame the yeast.

[twilliams1223]

Nick,

I just popped a taster of the CAP I brew w/ US-05. Bottled it on 4/19 and only chilled it overnight, so no lagering. Quite good. Not as crisp as the last time I brewed it w/ WL800. but still very good. The hops are coming through and no "fruity", "estery" stuff. Very Clean. I will do it again this way. Hard for me to get anything down to lager fermentation temp this time of year in Central NC.

Hope this helps.

[nickhorvath12]

Originally posted by twilliams1223
The hops are coming through and no "fruity", "estery" stuff. Very Clean.

This is very good to hear! I've tried my hardest to keep the temp at around 67-68 degrees since I pitched my yeast. When I racked to secondary yesterday I took a little sample and it seems to be tasting pretty nice already. Thanks for the reply though I can't believe you waited over a month and a half to taste your beer - I wish I had that kind of willpower!!

[twilliams1223]

I've got a pretty good supply in the pipeline. Although, a lot of it is to heavy for the summer months. Working on fixing that:D
My will power is not that good. Should have been
5/19 not 4/19
Hope yours turns out good!

[dparsons]

Since noone else has commented - Saaz and Centennial go very well together.

[nickhorvath12]

Thanks for all of the comments. I took another small sample a few nights ago (for purely scientific reasons) - blew my mind! It had only been in secondary for one day but it was crystal clear. I guess those whirlfloc tablets really work, and hopefully it will still be able to hold a head. The taste was amazingly smooth and clean already, although the centennial is undetectable even after tweaking the hop schedule to add some at 20 minutes. I can't wait to get this into my as of yet untouched tap-a-draft and into the fridge, I am definitely a new proponent of US-05.

[dparsons]

Your flavors will come out more as it matures. You'll be tasting that Centennial.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by nickhorvath12
.... I guess those whirlfloc tablets really work, and hopefully it will still be able to hold a head.

The last pilsner I made has a head that you could float a nickel on, nad I used a whirlflock tablet in it, so don't worry.....

[nickhorvath12]

Well I popped open a test bottle a few nights ago while I was brewing my wheat experiment, and all I can say is that this matched exactly what I was looking for. It has many of the classic pilsner flavor characteristics along with a hint of grapefruit flavor up front. It's very clean and refreshing - and at ~5.3% ABV it is a perfect session beer. Probably the first recipe that I've come up with worth doing again!

[BrewDog]

Isn't it a great feeling when your recipe comes out just like you wanted it to?:D
Great job!

[nickhorvath12]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Isn't it a great feeling when your recipe comes out just like you wanted it to?:D
Great job!

Yes sir, it is! Luckily it brightened up my mood, which was pretty bad after my efficiency dropped back down to 50%. I hit all of my temps on the nose thanks to your beersmith advice, so unfortunately I've narrowed it down to something going wrong at the LHBS. Can older or stale grains yield less sugars??

[mookow]

Originally posted by nickhorvath12
Yes sir, it is! Luckily it brightened up my mood, which was pretty bad after my efficiency dropped back down to 50%. I hit all of my temps on the nose thanks to your beersmith advice, so unfortunately I've narrowed it down to something going wrong at the LHBS. Can older or stale grains yield less sugars??

The problem was more likely the crush. I remember when I first started doing all grain I never paid attention to the crush, and as a result I had very bad (or very slow, ie it took a lot of sparging before my efficiency was above 60%) efficiency most of the time. Not paying attention to the crush was made worse by the the facts that the mill is adjustable and hand cranked. People before me must have thought "this is hard work, I'll adjust the rollers farther apart to make it easier", and on one particular occasion I didnt get above 45% efficiency after reaching my target volume. I boiled off and sparged for another four hours on that batch :mad: .

Since then I spend the first pound or two getting my crush dialed in. I've found that my system will handle a very fine crush without resulting in either a slow or stuck sparge, and so I now crush my grain quite fine. But my efficiency has gotten into the 80's pretty often, so I'm pretty happy with it now.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by mookow
The problem was more likely the crush. I remember when I first started doing all grain I never paid attention to the crush, and as a result I had very bad (or very slow, ie it took a lot of sparging before my efficiency was above 60%) efficiency most of the time. Not paying attention to the crush was made worse by the the facts that the mill is adjustable and hand cranked. People before me must have thought "this is hard work, I'll adjust the rollers farther apart to make it easier", and on one particular occasion I didnt get above 45% efficiency after reaching my target volume. I boiled off and sparged for another four hours on that batch :mad: .

Since then I spend the first pound or two getting my crush dialed in. I've found that my system will handle a very fine crush without resulting in either a slow or stuck sparge, and so I now crush my grain quite fine. But my efficiency has gotten into the 80's pretty often, so I'm pretty happy with it now.

I believe I use a gap of 0.030 on my mill, and as long as I sparge slowly, and bring the mash up to a mash out temp, I stay in the 74 to 76% range, but I think it is the design of my system that I do not get more on a regular basis, but I do get up into the eighties on occasion.

I bought a mill after several episodes of crappy grain extraction using the LHBS store crush.

I must comment that I am fine with 75%-ish. To go up into the eighties is a difference of a 1/2 pound of base malt or less and a refomulation of my recipes.

Good job though mookow, that efficiency is worth bragging rights

[mookow]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
I must comment that I am fine with 75%-ish. To go up into the eighties is a difference of a 1/2 pound of base malt or less and a refomulation of my recipes.

Good job though mookow, that efficiency is worth bragging rights
Brewing with ~12 (±2) gallons per batch, I find the higher efficiency to be worth a bit of extra effort. However, I'd trade down a couple of points of efficiency in order to be more consistent. I made a Berliner Weisse that ended up rather high gravity due to an 87% efficiency... there's no such thing as an Imperial Berliner Weisse, or at least there didn't use to be such a thing. After that batch, maybe there is, clocking in at all of about 3.3-3.5%

Of course, the efficiency goes up for lower gravity beers, and I should have taken that into account when formulating that recipe.

EDIT: just a couple other things:
-Boerne Brew, if you haven't had any problems with a slow/stuck sparge, you might try adjusting you mill to crush just a bit finer. Have some rice hulls around just in case you do have sparge problems, but this will probably increase your efficiency by a couple points anyway.

-I think my efficiency would go a couple points higher if the LHBS's mill would give me a consistent crush for all grain kernels. Some grain kernels get turned into flour (which is bad), and some go through the mill without even being touched (which is worse, from an efficiency standpoint, anyway), all on the same gap setting. I know my efficiency is pretty good, but still it is almost enough to make me go out and get a JSP or CrankandStein. That, plus the convenience of going straight from the mill into my mash tun, without regard to what the LHBS's operating hours are.

[MichaelM]

Yea my LHBS is Listermanns... they have two mills setup in the grain area, One is a bigger mill for all the pale grains that gives a damned good crush and is adjustable(so I usually end up tweaking it to my liking) and the other smaller mill is for roasted and dark grains(chocolate/coffee etc etc.) it seems to have a habit of crushing alot finer then the other mill..

Anyways I seem to be running around the 78-81 percent mark every brew so far so I am very happy. basically when I am formulation I formulate somewhere in the middle at 75% eff so that if I go high or a bit low I still fall within style for the brew

[nickhorvath12]

Originally posted by mookow
Some grain kernels get turned into flour (which is bad), and some go through the mill without even being touched (which is worse, from an efficiency standpoint, anyway), all on the same gap setting.

This is exactly how my grain looked. And also the wheat malt, which was another common factor in my two horribly inefficient brews, did not look crushed at all. Is wheat supposed to be crushed?

[mookow]

Originally posted by nickhorvath12
This is exactly how my grain looked. And also the wheat malt, which was another common factor in my two horribly inefficient brews, did not look crushed at all. Is wheat supposed to be crushed?

Wheat needs to be crushed for efficient extraction. Since it is usually a smaller kernel than two row barley, you'll usually need to set the mill gap narrower for wheat in order to get the same quality of crush that you get with two row.