Looking for good beer in Germany

[corkybstewart]

Steveh, here's a great article right up your alley.


http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/05/20/travel/20beer.html?pagewanted=1&th&emc=th
This is a pretty god article about the search for traditional bers in Germany.

[hertha fever]

just a couple of comments.

what they said about berliner weisse is correct. kindl and schultheiss are really the only 2 producers. although i have seen on berliner bürgerbräu website they produce it, already mixed in half liter bottles. although i´ve never seen it for sale.

kölsch sucks.
it´s way overpriced, comes in 0,2 liter amounts and is really just a pilsner with no hop and very little malt taste.

[ratman03]

I was going to start a thread on this article but you beat me to it.

I had no idea that there were as many defunct local styles of beer in Germany. This makes the relative lack of diversity in present day German beer that much more disappointing.

Then again, some of these styles are meant to be what they were -- local niche styles. In the US for instance, you can't even go national with a beer that isn't filtered (unless it's a weiss), so perhaps it's unrealistic to expect all of those styles to survive in a global economy. Nevertheless, one can hope to see a resurgence of these styles in the future; after all, the Belgian White beer style was given up for dead until about 30 years ago.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by ratman03
In the US for instance, you can't even go national with a beer that isn't filtered (unless it's a weiss),

Why? People go international with unfiltered beers? The Belgian beers I drink are unfiltered, and the Sierra Nevada beers you can buy in many UK supermarkets is bottle conditioned, yet comes from the other side of the world.

How come you can go national with a weiss and not with other beers?

Seems to me this is a myth put about by brewers who want to pasteurise their products for convenience and cost-effectiveness, under cover of necessity.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
How come you can go national with a weiss and not with other beers?


Cloudy beer scares the general public, it has for years -- that's why they were always served in clay or pewter mugs -- so you couldn't see the turbid beer. It wasn't until the advent of mass-produced clear glass that breweries started making sure their beer was "pretty."

Back in the early 90s, when I visited Capital Brewing for one of the first times, brewmaster Kirby was filtering his Weizen because the board of directors didn't want to market a cloudy beer. I had the opportunity to sample fom both sides of the filter; it was too bad they had to filter it, but it wasn't bad in its filtered either.

Seems to me this is a myth put about by brewers who want to pasteurise their products for convenience and cost-effectiveness,

Not so sure how an extra step in the process is cost effective, unless you are shipping long distances.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by ratman03
I was going to start a thread on this article but you beat me to it.


Actually, Stan beat us all to it -- we've been discussing it a little over at his blog: http://appellationbeer.com/blog/, not to mention right here on another thread... http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14987

Great minds...

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hertha fever
kolsch sucks.
it's way overpriced, comes in 0,2 liter amounts and is really just a pilsner with no hop and very little malt taste.

LOL!! Spoken like a true Berliner!! ;)

I'll have to say that I completely disagree with your opinion. While I do find it similar to Pilsner (following beer historically will tell you why), it's different in a more estery manner because of the top-fermentation -- that even cold storage can't hide completely. And if you visit Koln more often, you'll find it in larger available quantities than .2l -- there are .3, and .4 liter Stange as well.

What's your favorite style anyway, Hertha?

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh

Not so sure how an extra step in the process is cost effective, unless you are shipping long distances.

S.

Because there's less chance of spoilage due to bad handling.

You make the point that people don't like cloudy beer, so filtering beer is necessary. On the whole you are right. I don't see why that rules out national distribution. Firstly, bottle conditioned beer isn't necessarily cloudy if there are instructions on the bottle telling the consumer to store it upright for a period before drinking. Second, national distribution doesn't imply that it has to be a *massive* seller. "Craft" beer is never, ever going to displace mass market beer, its always going to be a minority sport. Even here in the UK where there's a healthy beer culture, quality beer accounts for but a fraction of the total market and that isn't even going to change. That doesn't really bother me.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
I don't see why that rules out national distribution.

Round all your factors up and distill them down to the bottom line you have in the middle: "'Craft' beer is never, ever going to displace mass market beer, its always going to be a minority sport."

In the US (which is the 'national' of the original statement) it's all the big battle for sales, so the marketing arms of the breweries do everything they can to not turn people off.

Many, such as you and I, are adventurous beer drinkers, but the majority aren't. That is not to say I agree with the practice, but there [b]is[/i] prior credence to the practice.

When I watched Kirby Nelson filter his Weizen and tell us about the brewery's board's decision to do so, I could see and hear the disdain. It's a matter of education and there's been too much allegiance to swill in the U.S. to change that over night.

"You mean that beer is supposed to be cloudy?"
"Yes."
"Doesn't that make it taste bad?"
"No, it actually makes it taste good."
"It does NOT!"

True conversation.

S.

[hertha fever]

Originally posted by steveh
LOL!! Spoken like a true Berliner!! ;)

I'll have to say that I completely disagree with your opinion. While I do find it similar to Pilsner (following beer historically will tell you why), it's different in a more estery manner because of the top-fermentation -- that even cold storage can't hide completely. And if you visit Koln more often, you'll find it in larger available quantities than .2l -- there are .3, and .4 liter Stange as well.

What's your favorite style anyway, Hertha?

S.

favorite style is tough to say. that´s like trying to decide which cloud type is better (cumulus, cirrus, cumulucirrus,......).
however, the beer that i could write poetry about is called "bernauer schwarzbier."
it´s actually a brew from the middle ages, originally brewed in a small town right on the northern border of berlin. a local brewery has the rights to the recipe and brews it now regularly.
nothing like a normal "schwarzbier". the sweetness isn´t there and the roasted malt is very pronounced.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hertha fever
nothing like a normal "schwarzbier". the sweetness isn�t there and the roasted malt is very pronounced.

I've read some articles on it, sounds like it's akin to a Baltic Porter, but it explains why you shy from more subtle beers.

I agree with the difficulty of picking a favorite, mine would be (original) Marzen Oktoberfest style, but I enjoy learning about and understanding all styles -- even those I don't care for (which are very few).

Someday I'll get to sample a Bernauer, perhaps on my trip to Cologne for Kolsch at the source I'll detour to Berlin.

S.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Stonch
Why? People go international with unfiltered beers? The Belgian beers I drink are unfiltered, and the Sierra Nevada beers you can buy in many UK supermarkets is bottle conditioned, yet comes from the other side of the world.

How come you can go national with a weiss and not with other beers?

Seems to me this is a myth put about by brewers who want to pasteurise their products for convenience and cost-effectiveness, under cover of necessity.

As steveh rightly points out, unfiltered beers are not what most Americans expect (and, truth be told, my statement was aimed at the American market).

If it were up to me, (and probably most Realbeer members) most of our beer would be unfiltered. However, brewers that have national aspirations in the US overwhelmingly choose to filter their beer for appearance. Also, I think it's appropriate to differentiate between bottle conditioned and filtered: Sierra Nevada is indeed bottle conditioned, but it pours a fairly clear pint, as opposed to Mad River Brewing's Jamaica Red, or Ipswich IPA for example. Both of the later are unfiltered, and not surprisingly, regional brews.

As for Belgian beer, most people who drink it know at least little something about beer. This type of drinker does not represent the target market of a brewery looking to break out of the craft category and sell a lot of beer beyond a regional level in the United States.

[hertha fever]

Originally posted by steveh
I've read some articles on it, sounds like it's akin to a Baltic Porter, but it explains why you shy from more subtle beers.

I agree with the difficulty of picking a favorite, mine would be (original) Marzen Oktoberfest style, but I enjoy learning about and understanding all styles -- even those I don't care for (which are very few).

Someday I'll get to sample a Bernauer, perhaps on my trip to Cologne for Kolsch at the source I'll detour to Berlin.

S.

hey let me know if you do. we´ll meet up and i´ll treat you to one myself.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by ratman03
As steveh rightly points out, unfiltered beers are not what most Americans expect (and, truth be told, my statement was aimed at the American market).

If it were up to me, (and probably most Realbeer members) most of our beer would be unfiltered. However, brewers that have national aspirations in the US overwhelmingly choose to filter their beer for appearance. Also, I think it's appropriate to differentiate between bottle conditioned and filtered: Sierra Nevada is indeed bottle conditioned, but it pours a fairly clear pint, as opposed to Mad River Brewing's Jamaica Red, or Ipswich IPA for example. Both of the later are unfiltered, and not surprisingly, regional brews.

As for Belgian beer, most people who drink it know at least little something about beer. This type of drinker does not represent the target market of a brewery looking to break out of the craft category and sell a lot of beer beyond a regional level in the United States.

I think my point has been missed entirely.

What I'm saying is that because true "craft" beer is never realistically going to have a mass market, the dedicated craft brewers shouldn't worry too much about appealing to people who, for example, would be repulsed by yeast in the bottle.

Your responses assume one thing: that constant growth and increase in market share are the aim for a craft brewer.

That's just not the case in my view. Businesses appealing to niche markets can and do exist and survive year on year. You don't need to constantly expand, you don't need to constantly seek new markets, as long as you turn a healthy profit that allows you to live comfortably, do what you want to do, and renumerate your employees (if any) fairly.

Most UK micros don't have any real aspirations to "break out of the craft beer category", and I like it that way. I don't want them to dumb down, I want them to concentrate on quality. You seem to be suggesting that lowering standards - and on the whole, pasteurising and filtering beer IS lowering standards - is a necessary evil if it helps the brewer expand and compete with "BMC".

I'm willing to go out of my way to buy quality products, and indeed I'm willing to pay higher prices for them. As long as the monopolistic tendencies of big brewers don't manage to drive my favourite regionals and micros out of business, I'm happy, and I expect they will be too.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hertha fever
hey let me know if you do. we´ll meet up and i´ll treat you to one myself.

I sure will. (Not that I expect you to know off the top of your head, but) Is there still a Croatian restaurant just south or west of the Kaiser Wilhelm Kirche? I believe it was called the Dalmatia or Dalmatian? Spent a great evening there one time -- great food.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Businesses appealing to niche markets can and do exist and survive year on year. You don't need to constantly expand, you don't need to constantly seek new markets, as long as you turn a healthy profit that allows you to live comfortably, do what you want to do, and renumerate your employees (if any) fairly.

I don't know your line of work Stonch, but that's not the usual direction for any business -- most are looking to grow, it's the first sign of success. That said, not all craft/micros think that way, but the ones that endeavor to go national (or international) do.

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
I sure will. (Not that I expect you to know off the top of your head, but) Is there still a Croatian restaurant just south or west of the Kaiser Wilhelm Kirche? I believe it was called the Dalmatia or Dalmatian? Spent a great evening there one time -- great food.

S.

Croatian food is brilliant. A national cuisine that combines the best of mediterranean/italian with the best of mittel europa

yum

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
I don't know your line of work Stonch, but that's not the usual direction for any business -- most are looking to grow, it's the first sign of success. That said, not all craft/micros think that way, but the ones that endeavor to go national (or international) do.

S.

Steve, as you said, it *isn't* the goal of every business to grow. That would be a very basic, almost primitive capitalist outlook which doesn't take into account other factors.

Some small businesses provide nicely for the needs of the people that own and run them via a steady profit stream, and they don't want to expand. That applies particularly to business set up to produce and supply products that the owners love.

I can give you countless examples - indeed the majority of microbrewers in Britain would fall into the category. Expansion may well be desirable, but not at the cost of the very thing they set out to do - brew good beer.

Frankly, the breweries that have aspirations to grow and then keep on growing will inevitably cut quality at some stage to make that jump, and that's when I and others like me tend to lose interest in them.

When Adnams spent money promoting a tasteless keg ale to appeal to the lower end of the market, I knew it was time to stop taking them seriously as brewer. Likewise, now that Young's has been swallowed up by a company (Wells) that spends much of its time brewing bad beers under license, I find the quality of their beers is in decline and I tend to avoid them. It happens time and time again, but then thankfully there are always new breweries for true believers! :)

[Stonch]

PS. I do notice, by the way, that there's an anxiety exhibited on BeerAdvocate on particular that craft beer *must* expand and take over the world. I don't quite understand it - as long as it continues to be viable to produce quality beer and sell it to an appreciative audience, you don't need to grab 97% of the market share or whatever. To do that, the craft brewers would end up being as bad as the BMC's that they replace. Look at Greene King in the UK - it's limbering up to become a new Bass/S&N.

Do you want the craft brewers you love today to become the macrobrewers you will hate tomorrow? If not, don't support them when they cut standards in a bid to go mass market. Boycott them and give your support to someone else.

[MeridianFC]

I'm not economic theorist, but it seems to me that the truth is somewhere in between. Small steady growth, as I understand it, is key to the survival of any business. I think it's possible to grow one's business and not necessarily be out to corner the market. There's also people who are doing a labor of love type of thing but brewing usually requires large enough capital investment, even on the small scale, that some sort of growth and profit oriented planning is a must. Treading water in any sort of business seems a dicey proposition.

On the other side of the coin, to paraphrase Fritz Maytag (noted capitalist and gourmand), there does come a time in brewing when the rise in quantity will of neccesity mean a decline in quality, though it's tough to say when that is that point does exist.

I can think of several 100,000+ barrel brewers who make great beer. I can think of more than a few 1000 barrel brewers who make bad or bland beer. Several beers I can name have suffered as their breweries expanded too rapidly, other beers I can name have done just fine when the fermenter size rose.

[Stonch]

Meridian, I agree that growth can be a good thing. I'm not presenting an extremist position in any way. It isn't possible for a business to remain *entirely* static.

However the point is, I think, an important one: I don't support craft brewers because they aren't called Scottish & Newcastle, Anheuser-Busch, Inbev or SAB Miller - I support them because they make good beer. I don't want them to try and compete with the big brewers, because history shows what happens when they do.

Ask supporters of Hardy & Hansons, Ridleys, Gales... the list goes on.

[MeridianFC]

Good point.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
I don't support craft brewers because they aren't called Scottish & Newcastle, Anheuser-Busch, Inbev or SAB Miller - I support them because they make good beer.

What if I told you A-B was making a decent Bavarian style Weizen? Blurs the perspective, doesn't it? And even if they are owned by SAB-M now, I still think Pilsner Urquell is (still) a good brew. For now anyway.

S.

[darylM]

Originally posted by steveh
What if I told you A-B was making a decent Bavarian style Weizen?



I would be drinking it. From reading this board and articles on the internet. I have grown to respect the macro brewers' skill. Everyday they are producing a product that tastes the same with ingredients that by nature, can have a different taste crop to crop.
For the sake of blurring , A-B has Ziegenbock in Texas to compete with Shiner Bock. Last time I tasted it, it was good stuff.

my 2 cents

[Stonch]

There's no doubt that big brewers can produce good beer. There's no doubt that the brewers they employ are sometimes the best in the business.

However, most of the time the big brewers produce tasteless swill regardless.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
What if I told you A-B was making a decent Bavarian style Weizen? Blurs the perspective, doesn't it? And even if they are owned by SAB-M now, I still think Pilsner Urquell is (still) a good brew. For now anyway.

S.

Kudos to them but there are a hundred other brewers in line who brew at least as good if not miles better. And those brewers are not busy filling up all available shelf & tap space with (what I precieve) as crap.

PilsUrq is a shadow of its former self IMO but that happened well before SAB got involved.

Originally posted by Stonch
There's no doubt that big brewers can produce good beer. There's no doubt that the brewers they employ are sometimes the best in the business.

However, most of the time the big brewers produce tasteless swill regardless.

Well played sir.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
However, most of the time the big brewers produce tasteless swill regardless.

That's never been an argument around here.

Daryl: http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12881&highlight=Michelob

Merid: Urquell may not be what it used to, but it's head and shoulders above a lot of stuff out there.

S.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by darylM
I would be drinking it. From reading this board and articles on the internet. I have grown to respect the macro brewers' skill. Everyday they are producing a product that tastes the same with ingredients that by nature, can have a different taste crop to crop.

And they use a lot of chemicals to make it taste that way. What the macros do is more akin to industrial chemistry than brewing, really. Don't kid yourself that these guys are better brewers than your favorite craft brewer.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Stonch
I think my point has been missed entirely.

What I'm saying is that because true "craft" beer is never realistically going to have a mass market, the dedicated craft brewers shouldn't worry too much about appealing to people who, for example, would be repulsed by yeast in the bottle.

Your responses assume one thing: that constant growth and increase in market share are the aim for a craft brewer.

That's just not the case in my view. Businesses appealing to niche markets can and do exist and survive year on year. You don't need to constantly expand, you don't need to constantly seek new markets, as long as you turn a healthy profit that allows you to live comfortably, do what you want to do, and renumerate your employees (if any) fairly.

Most UK micros don't have any real aspirations to "break out of the craft beer category", and I like it that way. I don't want them to dumb down, I want them to concentrate on quality. You seem to be suggesting that lowering standards - and on the whole, pasteurising and filtering beer IS lowering standards - is a necessary evil if it helps the brewer expand and compete with "BMC".

I'm willing to go out of my way to buy quality products, and indeed I'm willing to pay higher prices for them. As long as the monopolistic tendencies of big brewers don't manage to drive my favourite regionals and micros out of business, I'm happy, and I expect they will be too.

Stonch, your point is well taken and I completely agree with you. From what I have been reading lately, some regional American brewers (Ipswich, for example) are heeding the mistakes of the past, and choosing to grow their brands more slowly to ensure quality and brand loyalty. The American craft beer industry is filled with stories of brands and breweries who lost their way in their efforts to broaden their reach.

So yeah, smaller is better when it comes to beer, and I prefer it that way too. But I also like the fact that there are craft brewers that have national aspirations, because that means I can get a cold Sam Adams in areas where my other choices have names ending in Ice and Light.

[Stahlsturm]

Breweries can't expand limitless. There is only so much good grain, hops and most importantly brewing water to go around. Literally every brewery over here that tried to expand a lot had to lower their quality standards to the point where their once brilliant beer became faceless swill.

Luckily most brewers in my area can see that and have no aspirations of going national.

[hertha fever]

Originally posted by steveh
I sure will. (Not that I expect you to know off the top of your head, but) Is there still a Croatian restaurant just south or west of the Kaiser Wilhelm Kirche? I believe it was called the Dalmatia or Dalmatian? Spent a great evening there one time -- great food.

S.

sorry, don´t know off the top of my head and i can´t seem to find one near the church in the phone book. there´s a ton of them called "dalmacija" and one called "dalmatia grill", but its not near the church.
either way, let me know. :)