Fair test of efficiency?

[mookow]

I'm going to be brewing my first Berliner Weisse in the morning. It's going to be by far my palest and lightest gravity beer to date. The plan is to use 14# of grain to make 12 gallons of beer. I will be using my 5.2pH Stabilizer and frequently checking my runnings with the refractometer to avoid tannin extraction. One big thing I changed with this is that I got my grain crushed my teammate at Great Lakes. Will this beer be a fair evaluation of the efficiency change I can expect from getting it crushed at Great Lakes, or should I pretty much ignore it when formulating further recipes due to the extra amount of sparging water per pound of grain I will be using?

[Mad Scientist]

How do you normally get your grain crushed?

[Cosmic Charlie]

Do you normally use 5.2?

[mookow]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
How do you normally get your grain crushed?

Generally I crush it on the hand cranked PhilMill at the LHBS. But lately it has been giving me a very inconsistent crush. Some kernels will be ground into flour, and others will come through the mill completely untouched. Not just "looks to be still whole, but you can pinch it between your fingers and feel that it actually was broken into 3 or 4 pieces", but literally untouched by the rollers. Naturally, this has put my efficiency into the basement. So I'm looking at getting a mill of my own, but in the mean time I tried the Great Lakes mill and it did very good. 87% efficiency, and I could have pushed it to 89% or so. However, I tailed off my sparging just a bit before I hit 1.010 with the runnings, as this was a VERY pale mash and even with some 5.2pH stabilizer, I was worried about tannin extraction.

BTW, the 5.2pH stabilizer has not had a measurable effect on my efficiency in the past. I do usually use it in paler worts in order to worry less about tannin extraction, but I've done identical batches with and without it and got identical efficiency.

[Mad Scientist]

I have a jar of 5.2 and really don't use it, I never noticed any increase either. Was thinking I might try it again sometime soon...

[Shaun Goeckner]

I tried 5.2 also, and got no change. I'm SURE it has something to do with buffering, in that the amount of buffer in your water has to be used up before any change can occur. But I'm not entirely sure. I did a batch a month ago & used baking soda to bring my Ph up from 4.8, adding 5 tablespoons to the mash & there was like NO change....

I'm gonna play w/ a gallon of water later & see how much the Ph changes adding soda.....where it starts to change at....I'll post later.

[Mad Scientist]

That is ALOT of baking soda to add. If the mash was at 4.8, I would not have worried about it.

What type of beer are we talking about here? Light or dark? Gravity also.....

So, after all the bicarbonate and sodium you added to your beer, how did it taste?

[Shaun Goeckner]

No, I didn't add any 5.2 to that batch which was a 10 gallon with the following:

16 lbs Pale
6 lbs Munich
.5 crystal 10

Fairly light beer, but my efficiency has been horrible, around 66% so I've been muddling with the Ph. Trouble is, I can't get it to change, and getting a water report from the County that includes what we want as brewers to look at is impossible without paying for the analysis......Hillsborough County, Florida.....

[Mad Scientist]

What do you mean without paying for the analysis? They should provide the info you need, but for the basic minerals, you usually have to call.

How does your water tatse?

[Shaun Goeckner]

Boerne-
I queried the Water Dept. directly, and they were completely unknowing.....and to boot they just changed to chlormine as a sanitizer......

From the faucet the water has a ridiculous amount of sulpher or something, it smells like a bad sound... ( *) but at my kitchen I filter through a 3 gallon carbon filter, and it tastes good there...no smell or anything.

I just experimented.

1 Gallon water, starting Ph 7.2,
added 1/2 tsp baking soda and Ph went to 7.7
added 1/2 tsp more, Ph went to 7.95
added 1/2 tsp more, Ph went to 8.01

You see the curve....

What else to use to increase Ph w/o the sodium?

[Mad Scientist]

Notg real suprising that they were clueless...you need to speak to the chemist or the guy in charge. Who did you talk to? What is the name of your water provider, maybe I can help.

What I am trying to understand is why you are trying to raise a decent mash pH (4.8, IMO, is a bit low, but OK--desired is 5.1 to 5.5)

The trouble is that you just cannot heave in minerals to affect your pH with first knowing the enitre chemistry of your water. Being in Florida, you're probably getting water out of a limestone aquifer, so it is then very important to know what your water chemistry...high sulfates sound about right, so that would explain the sulphur smell. I'll bet that with unfiltered water you make a nice IPA, huh?

[Mad Scientist]

Oh yeah, nice titration curve, but you need to start from an acidic pH to do a titration propoeperly.

Also, adding chalk will rasie your pH with out adding sodium, but is adds Ca....also, it has a very low solubility, you really have to add it to the mash.

[Shaun Goeckner]

hills county (http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/water/)

I'm gonna try them again, but never managed to get what I needed. You'll see they only publish contaminants....

[Mad Scientist]

Yeah, most only give that b/c that is what people are concerned with. Let me know what you find out.

[Shaun Goeckner]

If I had your number Boerne I'd call you, jumping up & down hollering!

I got all my numbers; I asked for the Chemist....

CA- 56.4
MG- 21.7
NA- 9.72
S04-67.8
CL- 18.4
HC03- 211

Keep in mind I run this thru that carbon filter.......

[Mad Scientist]

So, you have reasonalby hard water best suited for normally bitter, amber to dark beers. Your carbon filter will remove most natural and synthetic organic compounds, and leaves behind everything else...this includes the basic minerals that we are dicussing now, so keep filtering.

One the other hand, I have brewed with tap water from the San Antonio area (hence the Boerne in my handle), which has a chemistry similar to yours, and had no problems brewing what so every (in fact, I never even filtered).

For hop bombs I did add gypsum, to boost the Ca and SO4 content, usually at about 1 tbs per 5 gallons of water, but I think now that is a bit excessive....I have things a bit more controlled these days, but I have to use R.O. water here, so I have a dry mineral 'cocktail' that I add to my brewing water.

In addition for pale beers, you might bring your brewing water up to boiling to remove the temporary hardness, but I do not think this necessay, as you HCO3 content in not all that high.

[Shaun Goeckner]

Ok, so to match Munich Water I need to add .3 grams/gallon of Chalk to my mash water, right?

Hey, sorry to hijack your thread, Milk Man. I'll build you a six pack, OK?

[Mad Scientist]

hehe....yup, we're thread hijacking alright....hmm...what should our demands be?

At any rate, Munich water is:
CA - 109
Mg - 21
HCO3 - 171
SO4 - 79
NA - 2
CL - 36

If you add chalk (CaCO3), you be adding 31.5 mg/L Ca and 47.4 mg/L carbonate, making your new chemistry:

Ca- 87.9
Mg- 21.7
HC03- 258.4
S04-67.8
Na- 9.72
Cl- 18.4

Why would you add additional carbonate to the water, when your carbonate alrerady higher than the Munich profile?

Since the chloride is lower than the profile, I would use calcium chloride to add Ca and Cl to your water concentration (you can get this at the LHBS), and maybe a small amount of gypsum to add 11 mg/L SO4 that you are lacking, and to top up the Ca to the proper munich profile concentration.

You probably will not be able to match it exactly, but you can get it real close. Avoid adding HCO3 since you are alrady higher than the profile. In this case, I htink that the extra HCO3 will make a big difference, since you are adding o the alkaline buffering capacity of the water, and if you are brewing a Helles, that will make a difference.

[Shaun Goeckner]

My ProMash has Munich as:

CA 76
MG 18
Na 1.0
S04 10
Cl 2.0
HC03 152

Should I correct to your specs?

[Mad Scientist]

Hmmm....I used Munich numbers as provided by Palmer, I wonder which is correct....

nevertheless, do not add more HCO3, you water already has too much

[Shaun Goeckner]

Right-O

I'll add .2 grams/gallon Chloride flakes...but will that be sufficient?

[Mad Scientist]

The sounds about right, I'll look at it in a bit.