Pilsner vs Dortmunder export

[Quin]

Is the difference basically just from the water? Our water system uses well water that is high in minerals and alkalinity. I assumed I wouldn't be able to brew a Pilsner without using some kind of acid to lower mash pH.

From 2004 BJCP Guidelines

1E. Dortmunder Export
...
Ingredients: Minerally water with high levels of sulfates, carbonates
and chlorides, German or Czech noble hops, Pilsner malt, German lager
yeast.
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.048 – 1.056
IBUs: 23 – 30 FG: 1.010 – 1.015
SRM: 4 – 6 ABV: 4.8 – 6.0%

2B. Bohemian Pilsener

Comments: Uses Moravian malted barley and a decoction mash for
rich, malt character. Saaz hops and low sulfate, low carbonate water
provide a distinctively soft, rounded hop profile. Traditional yeast
sometimes can provide a background diacetyl note. Dextrins provide
additional body, and diacetyl enhances the perception of a fuller palate.
Ingredients: Soft water with low mineral content, Saaz hops,
Moravian malted barley, Czech lager yeast.
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.044 – 1.056
IBUs: 35 – 45 FG: 1.013 – 1.017
SRM: 3.5 – 6 ABV: 4.2 – 5.4%

[markaberrant]

Yes, Dortmunders often have a mineral character to them, but then so do German Pilsners. You need to compare apples to apples.

German lagers can be broken down as such:

Munich Helles - malty
Dortmunder - balanced
German Pilsner - hoppy

Bohemian Pilsner (aka Czech Pil) is more like a cousin to these beers.

[steveh]

Dortmunder is often higher ABV too:

Brewed to a slightly higher starting gravity than other light lagers, providing a firm malty body and underlying maltiness to complement the sulfate-accentuated hop bitterness. The term "Export" is a beer strength category under German beer tax law, and is not strictly synonymous with the "Dortmunder" style. Beer from other cities or regions can be brewed to Export strength, and labeled as such.

S.

[danno]

Quin, if you use 3/4 distilled water (or some other high fraction) you could approximate the low sulfate and carbonate water required for a Bo-Pils...

(not exactly sure which way you want to go here, towards the Dortmunder, or towards the Bo-Pils...)

[Quin]

OK let me rephrase:

I've read in Palmers's book and elsewhere that brewing pilsners (german, czech, or any other kind of pilsner) using only base malt makes maintaining a proper mash pH difficult, especially during lautering, when using hard water. He recommends using a large proportion of distilled or de-ionized water to provide the right mash conditions and prevent tannin astringency.

So if you were brewing a Dortmunder export and using hard water, wouldn't you expect a certain harshness from the high mash pH (and resulting tannin astringency)?

I'm speaking in genearlites here. I haven't tasted a DE. I have tasted Paulaner Premium Pils and didn't care for the super dryness/metallic finish. I don't particularly care to replicate that taste.

However, I did like PU and would like to attempt to brew an AG version but less hoppy to suit my taste.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Quin
So if you were brewing a Dortmunder export and using hard water, wouldn't you expect a certain harshness from the high mash pH (and resulting tannin astringency)?

Once again from the BJCP guidelines:
Overall Impression: Balance is the hallmark of this style. It has the malt profile of a Helles, the hop character of a Pils, and is slightly stronger than both. Hard, minerally water can often be tasted.

The water can be tasted, but I don't think this suggests a tannin astringency. Just need to be careful with that sparge.

BTW Dryness and metallic finish in a Paulaner Pils? Thinking maybe there was something wrong there, too cold or too old. Paulaner Pils has always been hoppy to me, but never metallic.

S.

[danno]

I use 88% lactic acid to adjust my sparge water pH (and I still have a half a container of the 5-Star pH buffer to use up for my mash), with a pH meter (you could use strips too) I've found I need 1/4 teaspoon of lactic acid to adjust 13 gallons of sparge water from 9.1 to 5.5... I got a 4oz jar of the lactic acid at Northern Brewer, I think it was $3. should last me a loooong time...

hard water and adjusted pH are not mutually exclusive. you said your water was hard, if you want a Dortmunder, go ahead and use it, after adjusting your pH. if you want to do a Pils, I'd use 75-80% distilled water and again, adjust your sparge pH.

lighter lagers are among the hardest styles for a homebrew to make, simply because there's not a lot of place to hide your flaws. good luck!