Brew Pub Education

[steveh]

Okay, just a minor sort of gripe, but one I'm sure will get some of us talking around here.

I stopped into a local brew pub for a quick sample Friday evening. A historically good pub, but one that has changed hands in the last 2 years and run thru a lot of brewmasters - nonetheless, they still have made some good brews.

I see they have this years' "Replicale" in cask form, so I order up a pint -- not at all sure just what this round's replicate brew is supposed to be, but feeling adventerous. A very smooth, well balanced between hops and malts brew; nodding slightly to hops in the finish, but very roasty in overall impression. Quite a nice beer, and seemed rather mild in ABV at that, though many of this year's entries are up there. I enjoyed it.

Upon further research I see that the 2007 Replicale is/was an American Red Ale. Huh? American Red Ale? Is this a red ale with cascades thru the nose? Dunno, but the cask form wasn't at all extreme - back to the story...

So I'm finishing up the Replicale and I hear a customer behind me ask the bar tender for something that might be near to a brown ale. The bar tender thinks a second (literally) and says, "Maybe a Maibock?" Beer senses perk. As the customer reluctantly says okay, and the bar tender makes for the pint glasses, I lean in and ask. "Did you say you were looking for something similar to a brown?" "Yes." "You may want to try the Replicale, it's got a roastiness that's in line with a brown." "Great, thanks - yeah, I'll try one." He says to the bar tender who looks somewhat stunned, even chagrinned to a point that I'd trumped his Maibock suggestion. Maibock?

Well, the customer tried the beer and liked it a lot, thanked me for the suggestion, and went on his way. That's as far as I took it, opting not to ask the bar tender why he suggested something so far off from style (and having sampled the Maibock, only to return it because it was quite harsh and out of balance -- not at all smooth as advertised...and nowhere near a brown ale), but it got me wondering about when the passion for beer starts and stops at a brew pub. If the brewmaster is putting in his best effort, having a ball at what he's doing, and then turning his creation over to rubes, does that come back to bite the business? Or do unkowing customers even care?

Yeah, I feel like a nice brown ale tonight, but sure - I'll take that deep gold, harsh flavored, mis-brewed beer that's supposed to be on the opposite spectrum from what I'm craving tonight.

Oh yeah, on tap that night were; An American Wheat, an IPA on nitro and cask, the replicale on cask and regular tap, the awful Maibock, and equally awful ESB (that I hadn't tried until after the brown ale customer encounter), and an Irish Stout. So the bar tender picks the Maibock as the closest to a brown ale? Shee.

Sorry, needed to rant.

S.

[MeridianFC]

How many times has it been said, and not just here, that a joint's best efforts in the brewhouse/kitchen/etc. can be utterly torpedoed by a lowly front of house server. A system is only as good as its weakest link.

[Stodbrew]

Ahhhh... welcome to my world. I see it happen every day in my pub. When I see or hear one of my servers or bartenders completely miss the mark on something, I jump all over them. I try and stay up on server training and education, but it is very difficult. One of the reasons is very high turnover. Its hard to keep educating them when they're going to be gone, in some cases, in a few days. Another reason is, no matter what I do or say, they just don't care. They just want their tips and to get out. They are, fortunately, the ones who don't stay around long.

That being said, we do have some servers who are really into the beer, and want to learn, and they sell the hell out of it. Sadly, though, they are the exception and not the rule.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
When I see or hear one of my servers or bartenders completely miss the mark on something, I jump all over them.

I wish the Brewmaster at this particular pub kept his hand in. I've seen this bar tender at this pub in the past, and I don't get in there that often. Makes me think management only cares about the dollar factor too.

What was most troublesome was how he answered the query, with barely a thought. It was as though the Maibock was forefront on his mind because it was the newest tap. No real thought given to the style in question, though maybe no real knowledge is the point here. And then the look I get when I suggest something different to the customer. I'm sure I didn't get jumped on because the tender really didn't know what to say.

Actually, what was more troublesome than the suggestion of the Maibock in place of a Brown was that the Maibock was so awful. Not sure what was being used to hop it, but it was so harsh and off balance that it was undrinkable, and I didn't.

It's too bad too, the original owners who started the pub as a brewery were pretty enthusiastic about brewing good beer.

S.

[wortchillergoal]

I think that be it a brewpub or a decent beer bar, the staff should have knowledge of and love to talk about beer.

A gent forom the Syr area that now owns a brewpub in the Albany area talked to me about his plan at one time. Though the brewmaster from Empire had a couiple GABF medals, he would not want him as his brewer. The guy was not strong on people skills. He was not a bad person(read ass) either but he did not on agrand scale promote his beers when in the bar.

A1A Ale works in St. Augustine keeps sliding away. The staff show little enthusiam for beer, theirs or any for that matter. I have only seen their brewmaster once, during regular bussines hours. I was told that is about the only time he is there. I would think that he would make an appearence more than that. Any brewer at Empire did so.

There are now two other places, though not brewpubs, in St. Augustine to go. The staff loves to talk beer and promote a very friendly atmosphere. Infact, the one bartender has me bring him beers that he can't get down there, In exchange, I get a couple on the house. I will keep going there.

[Jinja]

Hey Stod, we usually hang out in the bar of your place, but all of the servers we've met have either been knowledgeable, or willing to go find out the answer to a question they don't know. I have no problem if someone does not have the same level of beergeekiness as me (though it seems it should come naturally to someone working at a brewpub) as long as they are willing to get the right answer as opposed to making chit up or not caring.

In addition to Stod's place, we almost always sit at the bar as opposed to the dining room, and most of our local brewpub bartenders are familiar faces. They know we take it seriously and always try to respect that. The local Palo Alto Gordon Biersch has a great staff.

That bartender needs to bone up - there's way more to drinking than Long Island Iced Teas and pre-slushed margaritas, you know?

Jinja Out

[chazwicke]

I visited 4 brewpubs in PA over the weekend. I sat at the bar in all 4. Most of the bartenders seemed to know their products well though a couple of them lacked a little personality. I stopped at Victory, Sly Fox Phoenixville, Iron Hill Phoenixville and McKenzie Brew House. I also visited Exton Beverage where I picked up sixtels of Troegs Sunshine Pils and Yards Philly Pale Ale. The guys who work at Exton know their stuff about craft brews. I enjoyed talking with them about the crop of warm weather brews.

[brewmonkey]

This was something I fought daily in the years I spent in the brewhouse. Sadly the place I was at, and many others, have owners who treat brewers like crap and do not allow them any latitude for corrections of employees when it comes to the beers. I was actually told to NOT correct employees but rather to take note and bring it up at the weekly meetings and then let the managers deal with the employee.

Getting the employees up to speed on the beers, especially new ones, took an act of God. I had 12 beers on tap of which 7 were seasonals and that meant an average of 2 new beers in a week. I would put out tons of write ups on the beers for the servers/bartenders but they would just flip them over and take orders on them instead.

While I miss my mash paddle I do not miss that BS.

[steveh]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Getting the employees up to speed on the beers, especially new ones, took an act of God.

Who 'dat? Brew Monkey?

I knew a few brew-pubs of the like you speak, but my initial complaint on this place is that it had a good rep for good beer and putting the knowledge up front for their customers. It seems like they're slipping into an abyss of nothing more than novelty beer for those who want to say they were in a brew pub, but really don't care about beer. Sad.

S.

[jaywoz]

I do not want to start a fight, but could you please let us know what Brew pub? I had almost all the "Replic ales" around but not on cask.
Thanks
Cheers,
J

[chazwicke]

I've got to commend one of our local beer bars. Last week I was at Birra Paradiso (Pizza Paradiso/ Georgetown) for a Dogfish Head beer dinner. My buddy and I arrived fairly early so we took a table upstairs to wait and have a beer or two before they opened the downstairs. The waitress made several recommendations and had her descriptions right on. I have witnessed on prior occasions there, the wait staff being schooled and given a tasting of new beers as they are put on tap or cask. It is wonderful to see such emphasis put on knowing and being able to describe certain beers to the customer. A knowing and learned wait staff and bartenders make a huge difference. I’ll keep recommending this place as long as they maintain this level of service. The food is pretty darned good too.

[MeridianFC]

Related to the initial post, I went to a certain national grocery chain today and was directed to the butcher on duty, who did not know what skirt steak was. Not alligator tail, ostrich loin, or wild boar, plain old beef skirt steak. I might be more tolerant is say the produced manager was fielding my question but this was the friggin' butcher.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Stodbrew
Ahhhh... welcome to my world. I see it happen every day in my pub. When I see or hear one of my servers or bartenders completely miss the mark on something, I jump all over them. I try and stay up on server training and education, but it is very difficult. One of the reasons is very high turnover. Its hard to keep educating them when they're going to be gone, in some cases, in a few days. Another reason is, no matter what I do or say, they just don't care. They just want their tips and to get out.

I sympathize with you. Anybody who owns or runs a business and has to hire service help today faces the same thing. What bothers me is the complete lack of desire of many people in service positions to become knowledgeable about the product or service they're involved in; notwithstanding the fact that to do so often takes only a small amount of effort, and would probably make their job a little more interesting.

As a customer, I'm not asking to be doted on, but I expect a server or bartender to be able to answer a basic question about what they're serving, and I don't want attitude when I ask. Is that asking too much?

[SoxyinMO]

Originally posted by Jinja
I have no problem if someone does not have the same level of beergeekiness as me, as long as they are willing to get the right answer as opposed to making chit up or not caring.

Here, here!

[dparsons]

I went out to an "English" pub in San Antonio with the people I was on business travel with a few weeks ago. One of the guys had spent a few years in England in the service asked our waitress what they had in the way of Bitters. She didn't know what he was referring to and thought he was asking about little candies. I commented that a Bitter was probably the most popular style of beer in England and pointed out the word bitter in the names of a couple brews on the menu. No interest. No concern. No way she could promote her employer's attempt to open up a niche market.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
directed to the butcher on duty, who did not know what skirt steak was.

Oh lord. That's more akin to the brewmaster not knowing what a Porter is!

Jaywoz -- check your PMs.

S.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Related to the initial post, I went to a certain national grocery chain today and was directed to the butcher on duty, who did not know what skirt steak was. Not alligator tail, ostrich loin, or wild boar, plain old beef skirt steak. I might be more tolerant is say the produced manager was fielding my question but this was the friggin' butcher. The days of the knowledgeable butcher who actually has a side of beef and pig carcass to cut are dead and gone.

[MeridianFC]

Homer Simpson: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Lisa, honey, are
saying you're never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa Simpson: No.
Homer Simpson: Ham?
Lisa Simpson: No.
Homer Simpson: Pork chops?
Lisa Simpson: Dad! Those all come from the same animal!
Homer Simpson: [Chuckles] Yeah, right Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.

[noby]

Originally posted by Sladek
The days of the knowledgeable butcher who actually has a side of beef and pig carcass to cut are dead and gone.

In the context of "national grocery chains", yes, but there are still good 'traditional' butchers out there. Or at least there are here. You have to kind of seek them out, mind.

[MeridianFC]

Actually they exist here but they're as rare as hen's teeth. There's a hog butcher near my inlaw's place at the beach. I've been meaning to go there for a while. Also the farmer's market near my house has a hog & buffalo farmer who butchers his own.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by dparsons
I went out to an "English" pub in San Antonio with the people I was on business travel with a few weeks ago. One of the guys had spent a few years in England in the service asked our waitress what they had in the way of Bitters. She didn't know what he was referring to and thought he was asking about little candies. I commented that a Bitter was probably the most popular style of beer in England and pointed out the word bitter in the names of a couple brews on the menu. No interest. No concern. No way she could promote her employer's attempt to open up a niche market.

Well, that is what you get for eating on the River Walk. How was that $20 burger, by the way?

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Related to the initial post, I went to a certain national grocery chain today and was directed to the butcher on duty, who did not know what skirt steak was.

Here in TX, that is a offense punishable by death.

[darylM]

Originally posted by dparsons
I went out to an "English" pub in San Antonio with the people I was on business travel with a few weeks ago. One of the guys had spent a few years in England in the service asked our waitress what they had in the way of Bitters. She didn't know what he was referring to and thought he was asking about little candies. I commented that a Bitter was probably the most popular style of beer in England and pointed out the word bitter in the names of a couple brews on the menu. No interest. No concern. No way she could promote her employer's attempt to open up a niche market.

Did you go to Mad Dog's on the riverwalk?

edit:

Sorry missed BB's post. Mad Dog is not a british pub. The best one I have seen is on I410 and Blanco I believe called the "Rose and Lion." They give you a decription of each beer they have on tap and bottle in a leaflet. A beer and meal will make you $11 poorer but that's cheaper than the riverwalk.

[Mad Scientist]

I enjoyed readin this thread, and I must comment that a couple of years ago, I spent an evening at the Two Rows in Rice3 Village in Houston. It was a busy night, and I managed to find a spot at the bar right next to the walk up order location (probably why is was open). Over the course of several brews, I ened up advising 75% of the people walking up due to eighter unknowledgable servers or they were too busy. But mainly it was lack of knowledge. As things slowed down, one of their better servers came over, and expressed his thanks, since he was too busy to help. It got me a very excellent barley wine. Their hopzilla is fantastic if you ever get the chance.