Dilution and Bottled Water

[CiderJoe]

I've been having some problems lately with Bacterial Infections. In my last 3 batches, I have had 2 with mold ( no effect on flavour, just appearance ) and 1 with a nasty infection that left the beer tasting and smelling a bit live olives. A real disppointment that was. My question is this; in those 3 beers I hit gravties higher than what I had expected and decided, probably unwisely, to dilute the beer with bottled water down the gravity I was looking for and get more beer. Is there as risk of infection from bottled water? I did not boil the water before adding it.

Thanks,
Cider

[SirVeza]

Hi,

You are 100% better off to fix your problems than water your beer down.

Like OMyGod real moldy particles in your beer?
This almost NEVER happens in brewing. The wort and yeast make the pH very unhospitible for most outside infections.

Exactly, what are you doing? I'm sure we can help.

You need to analyse what is happening with your brews. For anyone to help, you will need to provide more details. Like the fermentation temperature, the yeast, the recipe and gravities, etc. Then we can offer some real advice to you.

The risk from bottled water is normally low. But everyone's bottled water has different specs.

Interestingly, olives are often packaged in water with ascorbic and lactic acids to lower the pH.

Maybe you were half-way to making a Lambic! LOL

Dan

[CiderJoe]

Actually, I thought the question was pretty straight forward. Does adding unboiled bottled (Spring ) water into the fermenter (before I pitch the yeast) to dilute the wort down to a certain gravity pose and threat of bacterial infection? Am I wrong in assuming this water is bacteria free?

I've been diluting because I've recently improved my efficiency from 60% to just about 70% and am still readjusting my recipe formulation to reflect this. I use BeerSmith to help with that. I also used the BeerSmith Dilution Tool to get the water quantities.

[SirVeza]

I am sorry to complicate things, but as always, things are rarely as simple as you want them to be.

The answer to your question relies 100% on your "bottled water." Use your sense of taste. Does the water taste funny? If not, then go for it. It's likely not going to hurt what you are trying to achieve.

If the water tastes strange...find some different water. Strange in is strange out so to speak.

Good luck!

Dan

[CiderJoe]

It's store bought FonteVela Spring water (Think Evian and that sort of thing). I sometimes Insalus, both have about the right Chemical composition for the kind of beer I like. I boil it before I mash with it to cut down the BiCarbs and reduce the buffering power so that the water PH will be right for conversion. But I figure I don't have to worry about that if I'm only diluting with it in the end.

Mold in beer looks more like a thin layer across the top of the beer. Doesn't affect taste or anything. But the baterial infection was obvious. Smelled funny and tasted funny. I dumped the entire batch. I've never experience this before. Over the summer, I worked at a Micro-brewery in England and we use Caustic Soda and Paracedic (sp?) Acid to clean with. I don't have access to those things here. I use ChemPro Oxi and Bleach. I also don't really want to use Caustic Soda at home.

[toneyc]

Bottled water should be fine. It is usually processed through two different methods to kill bacteria, UV and ozonation. Remember, it sits for weeks, maybe months, on the shelf without growing stuff in it.

I would suspect equipment sanitation before bottled water.

:eek:
Toney.

[Mad Scientist]

I agree with SirVeza, get rid of the bottled water. If you extraction is reasonable at 70%, brew for that extraction, and stop topping up. And if extraction & final volume are still off after a few batches, re-adjust and try again.

Bear in mind that the water (that spoils the beer) may not make us sick, but then again, we also have an immune system and tollerence to microbiological infection.

I might also add that the food that does to make us ill rarely tastes bad...after all, if it tatsed bad, we would not eat it (except bleu cheese :)).

Tony, I realize that most water bottled from a municipal source may have those processing techinques, but if the bottle does not say they are doing it, they probably aren't.

Furthermore, these processing techiniques are probably not applied to spring water. And we have no idea what the europeans are doing (not offense Cider...) to their water.

Bottom line: If it ain't boiled or sani'd, it don't touch my wort.

[CiderJoe]

Beorne - I honestly don't know what they're doing to the water. That's why I ask. I read somewhere that the municiple sources in the US are often more pure than bottled water abroad, which is what make me think of this in the first place.

As for my extraction, I normally formulate for 60% because my set up isn't as consistant as the equipment I was using in England. Perhaps I should use an Igloo cooler as a Mash Tun instead of the Zipap Double Bucket I'm using now. The buckets work, but I have a heck of a time with temp control which effects my mash in a big way. I guess it's all about fine tuning your method.

What I'll do is formulate for 65% (baby steps, I know) and boils some water to top up with if necessary. If I start getting more consisitant with 70%, I'll definitely just go for that from the beginning. The problem is if I fall short and end up with a 2% beer or something. I like a nice session beer, but that's just not on.

Thanks
Cider

[Mad Scientist]

By all means, get an igloo, you'll be much happier.....

And I understand about the baby steps....I still figured my formulation based on 65%, though I presently hit the 74% to 75% range. Last weekends mash was more like 79 or 80.....

[takhsh]

The rule of thump is that if the water is good to drink, it is good to brew as well, or to dilute your condensed wort to desired gravity. This is as far as germs count is concern. Probalby this water is not germ free. Nothing is. But is does not have enough germs to spoil your beer, and this is what counts.

[stronk]

I take it you are opening the bottles fresh and not using previously-opened ones? Also, the outsides of the bottles could be a problem, particularly if they have ever been stored in a cellar or a damp area. Mold spores could blow into the gap between the sides of the bottle and the sides of the cap, where they'd be washed in with the water.

Then again, maybe it's wrong to focus on the water (it could just be a coincidence that the two happened at the same time). For a start: once you have had one infection the likelihood of more is much much higher. For example, most lambic homebrewers have separate equipment on the fermentation side for their lambics (or they know they should, at least!). I'd look at both your equipment and your lag times. Maybe try making big starters and pitching them at high krausen.

[corkybstewart]

European bottled water is exrtremely pure, there's virtually zero risk of getting contaminated bottled water in Europe. They have been relying on bottled water far longer than we even knew about bottled water. Your contamination is coming from somewhere else.
It has to be something post boil, like tubing, siphons, or even fermenters. Do your fermenters have spigots, have you replaced stoppers and airlocks lately. Maybe you leave your fermenter open in a drafty place or your wort takes too long to cool off. It sounds to me like a systemic problem, something you started doing a few batches ago, but I really can't see the water being the problem.

[CiderJoe]

Lots of good tips here guys. Thanks.

In fact I have had problems with wort chilling. It takes forever. I feel a bit ripped off by the guy who provided my chiller. It takes about an hour (plus or minus) to chill my wort to pitching temp. Way too long, I know. Definitely need a new chiller.

Tubes, siphones, stoppers et al, all at soaked in bleach now. In fact I leave them in bleach solution now while I'm not using them. I have replaced the tubes for siphoning. I noticed it was getting a bit brown. Yuck. I should probably buy new taps as well for the fermenters. I soak them in bleach too, but it seems there are just to many nooks and cranies for bugs to hide in.

Going back to the water, I always use fresh unopenned bottles. I usually buy it that morning before I brew. But the idea of making a bigger yeast starter is a grat idea. I'll boil up some DME and get a starter going much earlier in teh process. Maybe that higher yeast count can make a difference.

takhsh - I love it. The Rule of Thump. I know it's a typo, but I still like it.

Thanks again,
Cider

[takhsh]

Originally posted by CiderJoe


takhsh - I love it. The Rule of Thump. I know it's a typo, but I still like it.

Thanks again,
Cider

Well, it was not a typo. Simply I did not konw the word thump, but now that I looked into dix and find out both words thump and thumb, I laughed as well.

[CiderJoe]

I just liked it cause it made me think about giving my problem a good "thumping" as in not letting it beat me. Kind of works.

[CiderJoe]

Well, I used the Rule of Thump and bleached everything really good and it seems to have payed off. I bottled and brewed on Saturday.

I won't know about the brew for another 2 weeks probably, hopefully it's fine. No dilution, hit my gravity (just slightly above actually, but still 60% range, darn plastic buckets).

The beer looked good in teh secondary when I racked to the bottling bucket. Nothing wierd floating on top, so off odor. Should be a great APA or Cascade Bitter as I'm calling it.

Thanks for all the tips. I think Corky nailed it with the siphoning hose. The old one needed replaces and I needed to tighten up on sanitation. I think maybe I got alittle over confident and got lax.

Thanks again,
Cider

[twobrain]

bottled spring water is probably not sterile... bottled water like dasani is probably purified at least

http://www.fda.gov/ora/inspect_ref/itg/itg46.html

THE 8 TYPES OF WATER ARE:

1. Non-potable
2. Potable (drinkable) water
3. USP purified water
4. USP water for injection (WFI)
5. USP sterile water for injection
6. USP sterile water for inhalation
7. USP bacteriostatic water for injection
8. USP sterile water for irrigation

[Lupulinitus]

I use bottled spring water in each batch normally even if it's just to rinse the remaining yeast out of the funnel. When I used to do extract a long time ago, I always used bottled spring water. Whatever the store brand was I use. No problems. Not sure about soaking everything in bleach while it's not being used. Does it hold the smell?