Extract v Fresh Fruit

[optimatored]

Hey all, looking to do a Strawberry Wheat beer. I am trying to decide b/w using fresh or extract for the strawberry flavor. Using an extract at bottling seems easier, but I wonder if it will taste "synthetic."

So anyone have experience with fruit flavor extracts??

[bigben]

If you go to the brewing network and click on jamils page there is a pod cast on fruit beers. just to sum it up. he made three beers one using extract one with puree and one with real fruit. the winner was the puree. he stated that the extract tasted like it was artificial.

[optimatored]

Originally posted by bigben
If you go to the brewing network and click on jamils page there is a pod cast on fruit beers. just to sum it up. he made three beers one using extract one with puree and one with real fruit. the winner was the puree. he stated that the extract tasted like it was artificial.

tyvm

[MichaelM]

i have done one extract flavoring and one "juice" flavoring I did a raspberry ale and followed the extract directions.... it came out ok... but tasting a beer with raspberry puree there was a definite difference in both taste and aroma.... the extract really lacked the aroma the puree added and seemed to be less substantial overall....

The other beer I did was a fruit beer off a bitter style using fresh squeezed and pasteurized apple juice... it turned out much like the puree version of the raspberry ale... nice and aromatic and apple flavor was very definite.

BTW we used a half gallon of fresh juice in the secondary on a 5 gallon batch and it was very nice for a lighter summer beer..

YMMV though I have heard of people doing quite nice extract flavored batches... I guess the real secret to them is to forget what the directions say and buy a couple bottles per 5 gallons and add to taste... we only used one bottle as it recommended and it just wasnt "there" like we expected it to be

[Mill Rat]

Part of the flavor of real fruit additions is the fermentation of the sucrose and fructose that comes with the fruit. Once you have a fruit beer, the cidery flavor from those sugars complements the fruit flavor and is not a fault, as it would be in most other beer styles.

[MrNate]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
Part of the flavor of real fruit additions is the fermentation of the sucrose and fructose that comes with the fruit. Once you have a fruit beer, the cidery flavor from those sugars complements the fruit flavor and is not a fault, as it would be in most other beer styles.

So... would you recommend adding the fruit in the primary or secondary? I wanted to do a fruit wheat this summer, but I'm still not clear on that point.

[markaberrant]

Originally posted by MrNate
So... would you recommend adding the fruit in the primary or secondary?

Add the fruit to the primary after the initial fermentation begins to subside.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
Part of the flavor of real fruit additions is the fermentation of the sucrose and fructose that comes with the fruit. Once you have a fruit beer, the cidery flavor from those sugars complements the fruit flavor and is not a fault, as it would be in most other beer styles.

hmmm - when using extract, would adding sucrose to the fermentation help the "natural" flavor of the fruit?

[bigben]

I added mine for a blueberry wheat to the secondary and it is going to need another transfer.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by MrNate
So... would you recommend adding the fruit in the primary or secondary? I wanted to do a fruit wheat this summer, but I'm still not clear on that point.

As the previous posts concur, add the fruit either side of when you're moving from primary to secondary. If you add it to the unfermented wort, the vigorous CO2 generation of the primary fermentation will carry away many of the volatiles that give you the fruit flavors. Keep in mind that the fermentation of the added fruit will also be quite vigorous, so keep using a blowoff tube. The quantity of fruit you use will depend on the strength of the fruit's flavor. Raspberry and cherry are pretty strong, you probably can't use too much blueberry or strawberry. Search on "fruit" and you should be able to find quite a few previous threads on this subject.

[MichaelM]

what mill rat said :)


I added mine to secondary to help stave off CO2 scrubbing from initial fermentation that could carry away alot of the aromas and and such.... I guess you could just as easily add it into the primary AFTER first fermentation has happened and then once the secondary fermentation from the fruit subsides rack it to secondary to help clear it out...... i was using juice so wasn't real worried about seeds or skins or any fruit bits....

if using a puree I would probably to exactly what I just said or do a tertiary if i added puree to the secondary

[larin1477]

Hey...I just made a fruit beer called Fuggleberry Pie...After conversing extently with all on here and then listening to Jamil....http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/
click on archives/fruit beer is there...

Jamil mentions 3 times to add fruit...

1. in the boil...( as i did) this will simulate a cooked fruit beer (some fruits taste VERY different cooked) also unless you want hazy beer you must add Pectin to the boil.

2. To the primary (he strongley suggests not doing this)

3. To the Secondary ( use puree rack your beer over it)

4..whoops I only said 3...you can add flavoring at bottling (to each his own but if im making a fruit beer im gonna use fruit...never met an artificial flavoring that tasted real!)

BTW...just tried one of my Fuggleberry pies ( Has a strawberry smell, sweet, slightly alch. aftertaste)...
at any rate enjoy!

[optimatored]

question... i still plan to make this when strawberry season is in full effect and the berries are sweet...

now I am not sure if I missed this but, how do I add a raw fruit to my "stable" secondary fermentation and not F it up? it must be covered in bacteria and wild yeast.

[bigben]

from what I read some people are heating it and steeping it in water and then puree it.

[larin1477]

Originally posted by optimatored
question... i still plan to make this when strawberry season is in full effect and the berries are sweet...

now I am not sure if I missed this but, how do I add a raw fruit to my "stable" secondary fermentation and not F it up? it must be covered in bacteria and wild yeast.

Yes you are taking a slight chance by adding the raw fruit to the secondary...I would as i said earlier add fresh fruit to the last 10 or so of the boil...or if you want to add it to the secondary use puree!

[BrewDog]

Don't add fruit to the boil, as it will set the pectins and give you hazy beer, as well as drive off flavor and aroma.

[larin1477]

Originally posted by BrewDog
Don't add fruit to the boil, as it will set the pectins and give you hazy beer, as well as drive off flavor and aroma.

If one is really concerned with the haze you can add pectic acid to the boil...and as for driving off flavor and aroma ill bet a bottle of my fuggleberry pie that it only enhances flavor and aroma.

The main thing it does (besides the haze)..is give the fruit a "cooked" flavor...with some fruits this is undesireable..(in my case i was looking for strawberry shortcake...so the cooked strawberries were perfect)

[BrewDog]

Yes, absolutely. That's perfectly fine if you know what the pectins are/do and why you are boiling it, etc. (which you seem to).

I was just pointing out that it is not the recommended procedure for most cases. One of the things about boards like this one is that someone can do a search, find your post, and treat it as gospel, not knowing any of the ins and outs like you do. That's a reason why we strive for accuracy here. We don't want to inadvertently lead someone down the wrong path, that's all. :cool:

I'm not sure how pectic enzyme works after it has been boiled (never tried it, just thinking out loud here). I would think it will denature in the boil (like an egg white denatures when it cooks). Further, is it something that you should add to the fruit prior to adding it to the boil (analagous to "mashing" the fruit) to prevent pectin setting, or is it something that you use after the boil to break it down after the pectin has set? Did you use it in your batch? How well did it work for you?

[KaiBueno]

Sounds like I should have had the pineapple slices boiling for less time than the full 60. Perhaps that's why I smell it, but didn't taste too much of it (to balance the ginger) when I tested the gravity before transferring to secondary...

Perhaps a pineapple puree to the secondary? Or slices boiled for 10-15 minutes, rather than 60? I'm wondering what have been better. I've still got the secondary, then bottle conditioning to go to see how it turns out, but I plan on doing at least another few fruit beers this summer, the next also with pineapple, another with mixed berries. Just trying to figure out before I use pineapple again how I might get more of the flavor from it. Based on the initial tasting, either the mass amt (intended) of ginger is overpowering it (and I needed more than one pineapple), or I added the pineapple the wrong way to get the flavor out of it. I would think even with all the ginger, that a whole pineapple would give me some flavor for a mere 2.5 gal batch...we'll see when I drink it...

Any advice if anyone has some regarding pineapple?

[optimatored]

Originally posted by larin1477
Yes you are taking a slight chance by adding the raw fruit to the secondary...I would as i said earlier add fresh fruit to the last 10 or so of the boil...or if you want to add it to the secondary use puree!



My thought was put fruit in blender, makes puree, same as raw fruit, just mush. Can some enlighten me on how to make puree...

[roggae]

Originally posted by bigben
If you go to the brewing network and click on jamils page there is a pod cast on fruit beers. just to sum it up. he made three beers one using extract one with puree and one with real fruit. the winner was the puree. he stated that the extract tasted like it was artificial.

wow ben, it looks like you've been brewing a lot!! i made a #9 clone a while back and i used 3.3 lbs of apricot puree and brewed the pale ale with the extract. it turned out ok, but i think an extract flavor and an all grain beer would have been better. actually ben, this was one of the beers i brewed the weekend you hooked my keg up!

btw ben rocks!!

[HogieWan]

a lot of people freeze the fruit first. This busts up some cell walls to get more fruit in the beer and it does kill some of the bacteria. Remember beer is acidic, and after primary subsides, you should have a LOT of healthy but hungry yeast to out-compete any bacteria on the fruit

[larin1477]

Hey Brewdog...

Sorry if it seemed like i was jumping on you...I agree with you on the "taking it as gospel"...that was actually why I wanted to assure him that you "can" boil the fruit...many here were dead set against boiling the fruit...But...after actually listening to Jamil is when I decided to add it to the boil...The biggest thing with adding it to the boil is it should ONLY be added to the last 10 min....

My thoughts on pineapple would be to dd it to the secondary...

lastly the puree...I agree with hogie freeze it first...and really its not that big of a risk because adding to the secondary means the yeasties have already done thier work...not really much chance of infection at that point..

[KaiBueno]

OK, so if I add pineapple (slices or puree) to the secondary, would I then want to move it to a tertiary 'cos of the previously mentioned puree notes? If so, and it was already in the secondary for 2 wks, how long in a tertiary....1-2 more?

I'm considering brewing a blonde, racking to a secondary on top of the pineapple, and eventually dry hopping with coconut. Would I want to do the coconut in the secondary or tertiary? Goal is a Pina Colada Blonde....

[Dextolen]

I've done one with extract and one with puree.

The extract beer was much more accepted by the people I shared it with. The puree'd verion was so dry and tart that it was only for the hardcore (higher in alcohol, too). The ferment took ALL the sweet out of the fruit (raspberries) and left only the tart. If I did a puree beer again, I'd use some sort of non-fermentable sugar to bring down the tartness.


I added the canned puree (48oz, Oregon) at secondary, no troubles with contamination, but be SURE to use a blow off tube. OMG was that a big ferment.

[larin1477]

Originally posted by KaiBueno
OK, so if I add pineapple (slices or puree) to the secondary, would I then want to move it to a tertiary 'cos of the previously mentioned puree notes? If so, and it was already in the secondary for 2 wks, how long in a tertiary....1-2 more?

I'm considering brewing a blonde, racking to a secondary on top of the pineapple, and eventually dry hopping with coconut. Would I want to do the coconut in the secondary or tertiary? Goal is a Pina Colada Blonde....

No tertiary needed...fermentation may start up again( depending on how much sugar is in the fruit) (ie fresh pineapple as opposed to canned in heavy syrup)...as Dex said ...taste it before bottling if its too tart add lactose before bottling.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by optimatored
question... i still plan to make this when strawberry season is in full effect and the berries are sweet...

now I am not sure if I missed this but, how do I add a raw fruit to my "stable" secondary fermentation and not F it up? it must be covered in bacteria and wild yeast. Forget the sweetness of the berries, it will ferment away. Add some lactose if you need the sweetness, or choose a yeast with fairly low attenuation.

The way I add fruit to the secondary is by using puree if I can find it, otherwise I run the fruit through my grandmother's sausage grinder using the coarse disk. This breaks up the fruit pretty well without crushing the seeds that will add a bitter flavor. Then I heat the ground fruit to about 75 C for 15 minutes, let it cool, dump it into the secondary through a sanitized funnel, and then rack the beer in from the primary. Last year I made a strawberry hefe with White Labs 500, no lactose, and it turned out very well and not too tart.

[cbtrtbum]

roggae, any chance at posting that 9clone recipe? I LOVE #9 and will definatly have that be my next batch, cant believe i hadnt thought of it myself. Good call!! Peace,Chris