measurements from the where live board

[wortchillergoal]

I don't see the reason for all the concern over US and mertic systems. You will use what you are most comfortable working. It is hard to change ones' paradigms. There are plenty of soucres to help convert if you need to do so.

I would like to point out to the Americans, that the word pint has come to mean the shape of the glass and not its volume. I know as I sold Libby glass ware for years. Alot of bars and taverns are serving 12 and 14 oz pint glasses and calling it a pint.

I do not see the reason to try to prove one system is beteer than the other. They have both served their users well for along time.

[brewmonkey]

I hate it when thet do try to pull that over on people. I have been to many pubs where they have the 14oz's and call them pints. Even worse is that they try to tell you it is a pint and THEN they charge you standard rate for a full pint that is 2oz's short!:mad:

I do not mind what the size of the glass is so much as what I am paying for. If you tell me it is a pint then I expect to have a full pint not "your bars" version of it.

[chazwicke]

Well that is one of the great things about Britian. You get what you pay for. If you ask for a pint and it comes up short you have every right to ask for a top up. I have found most pubs do a great job of pouring. Some of the pub rating sites I go to actually watch for the pour and consider it along with other criteria when rating the pub. I know that they have proper measures for the hard stuff too. It is taken quite seriously there.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Well that is one of the great things about Britian. You get what you pay for. If you ask for a pint and it comes up short you have every right to ask for a top up. I have found most pubs do a great job of pouring. Some of the pub rating sites I go to actually watch for the pour and consider it along with other criteria when rating the pub. I know that they have proper measures for the hard stuff too. It is taken quite seriously there.

Well, I find that the pubs serving good beer instead of swill, pour a proper pint. It is the places that try to please everyone that I notice the use of the small "pint" glass. If you don't know how to tell, look at the bottom of the glass. If it is thick, chances are it is a short pint.

[Kiltlifter]

If you don't know how to tell, look at the bottom of the glass. If it is thick, chances are it is a short pint. Wouldn't that require you to drink the contents of said glass first? :p

[brewmonkey]

What he is talking about is the base of the glass. You can see before you drink that it is not a true pint. The 14oz Libby's bar glasses have about a 3/4-1"bottom before the beer starts whereas the 16oz are only about 1/8-1/4" thick.

[barley ben]

I must say that it must be nice when you can worry about how many ounces are in your pint. I'd be happy if I could walk into a bar and even score 1 oz of good beer!! Guess I'll just keep making my own till things change around here!

[Kiltlifter]

OK ... hadn't thought of that method for checking the glass. :)

I agree you should get what you pay for. In that case though shouldn't the glass be taller to allow for the proper formation of the head so you get a full "pint's" worth? If a proper US pint glass holds 16oz of liquid and the top inch or whatever is holding the beer head then you aren't getting a "true pour" anyway.

Doesn't matter too much to me but its kinda fun to discuss.

Barkeep ... 4 gills of your best bitter please!

[chazwicke]

The English beer glasses have a mark on them to insure they are full imperial pints. And many have a line for half pints too. They are embossed / etched with a crown to denote that they are infact full pints. The pour on a full pint is usually up to the very brim of the glass. the publican allows the head to run off.

[bigmf]

Its funny you know, I'm in a small town in Canada near the US border, and where you order a pint makes all the difference on its size. Two bars in town sell U.S. pints and the others imperial pints. Actuallly, there's a third choice that doesn't sell pints at all but 350 or 650 millilitre glasses (a "glass" or a "mug"). I don't like getting the Imperial pint because I want more beer. (like most I suspect).

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that there is some americanization of weights and measures in Canada, which held the Imperial Pint as the standard measure prior to the change to metric.

[kevin]

Originally posted by chazwicke
the publican allows the head to run off.

what is a publican in my dictionary it is a collector of taxes

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by kevin
what is a publican in my dictionary it is a collector of taxes

He/she,to be poltically correct, is the owner of a pub. It might also mean the bartender. The term comes from England.

I think trhough that we should form our own party with platform and run for president as a publican.

[sallad]

when i was in germany, they measured in mililiters. each beer had its own glass with the brewers name on it and a line denoting the amount, usually like 500mL. the glasses extended another inch or so above the line to allow for a creamy head (which lasted the entire glass) to sit on top of the beer.

barley ben- i believe you live in my area, near philly. you need to take a ride into the city, and you'll find plenty of wonderful beer bars! i can name quite a few places and give you addresses and/or directions if you're interested.

we should form our own party with platform and run for president as a publican.

once they were just publicans, then along came prohibition and no longer could they use the name. then prohibition came crashing down, and once again they were publicans, or you might even say "re-publicans." we'll take it to them old school, one nation under hops, with barley and no adjuncts for all!

(OK, that was super corny)

[chazwicke]

Corny but imaginative. Thanks for the chuckle!

[Theakston]

Originally posted by chazwicke
The English beer glasses have a mark on them to insure they are full imperial pints. And many have a line for half pints too. They are embossed / etched with a crown to denote that they are infact full pints. The pour on a full pint is usually up to the very brim of the glass. the publican allows the head to run off.

Southerners often pour their pints "headless" but in the north the glasses usually have a line to mark the full pint that is an inch or more from the top of the glass, allowing room for the head on top of the full pint. That way you can have your full pint AND a nice creamy head as well. The head is an essential part of a great northern cask bitter and it is a shame that southern gits tend to pour it off.

[Richard English]

I have just caught up with this thread as I have been offline for a while.

A few points.

The quote about beer head and "southern gits" might be opaque to US readers. For years (centuries?) there has been rivalry between the north and the south of England which (although it is, in truth, largely mythical) does occasionally manifest itself with stereotypes such as "the soft southerners living their their mansions and driving their Rolls-Royces (a northern view) and men wearing cloth caps, keeping pigeons and racing whippets (a southern view). Both sterotypes are, of course, no more than that. Stereotypes and largely untrue.

In the case of beer, though, there is a distinct preference with northerners liking their beer with a massive head (and suggesting that southern beer is flat") and southerners prefering beer with very little head (and suggesting that they prefer to get a full pint.) The fact is that different beer styles need different methods of dispense and a pint of Young's with a thick creamy head would be as wrong as a pint of Sam's without a head.

In the north beers are served through "sparklers" which restrict the flow of beer and make it spray into the glass which causes the head. There was a vogue for putting sparklers on to the beer engines in the south but it is now rare to see them used. I, for one, used to complain about them and most pubs have simply removed the constricting valve. The reason for thie intorduction was simple - it's an easy way to give short measure.

Which brings me to glass sizes. In the UK it is illegal to sell any alcoholic drinks (unless they are served from a sealed bottle - which itself must have its quantity clearly shown) except in certain specified measures, which must be indicated at the serving point, together with the price charged.

Beer can only be served in Imperial pints or half pints, or multiples thereof. All beer glasses must be stamped with their capacity and this is usually the measure to the brim. Since it is impossible to get a full pint AND a head into a glass, some brewers ask their tied houses to use oversize glasses, as Theakston says. However, it is far from universal, even in the north since most brewers are against the idea because presently the head (although 99% gas) is considered part of the measure and a beer served with a tight head can be up to 15% short - which translates into 15% extra profit.

There was a private member's bill introduced into the House to force brewers and pubs to be obliged to provide full measure (just as is the case with just about every other commodity) but it was talked out thanks to the brewers' lobby.

However, the threat has meant that the less scrupulous brewers and pubs have cleaned up their act and now usually offer to top up your glass.

So far as a publican is concerned, that's the man or woman who runs a pub. Often known as "The Landlord", in a proper pub he or she is a very important person and is largely responsible for the overall quality of the pub. So far as I know no other country has the same system which is probably why no other other country has pubs that are the equal of England's (and to an extent those of Wales and Scotland).

Wortchiller's comment about the shape of the glass is interesting since this is also the case in some other countries. In Sri Lanka (which was a British colony) they talk about a pint - but it's not a pint at all.

I get the feeling that UK weights and measures legislation is maybe much sterner than in some other countries - and I think that's a good thing!

[Theakston]

Thanks Richard for the clarification. For a Rolls Royce driving southern git you're not all that bad -- even if you do prefer flat beer.
Anyway I must go feed the pigeons.

Cheers!

[bigmf]

Originally posted by Richard English
... and racing whippets ...

Now that term is opaque to me! :D

Most places in Canada will show volumes on their menu, i.e. 12 or 16 oz. glass, 22 oz. mug, 40 oz. schooner or 60 oz. jug. I like the variety. I also find that its acceptable for a customer to send back a glass that isn't full. The only beers where it is acceptable to have a large head seems to be the imports like guiness, kilkenny or newcastle.

M.

[Richard English]

Whippets are dogs, rather like small greyhounds.

And in England we do not have beer menus as a rule. You go into a pub, go to the bar, order your beer, and go and sit down (or stay standing up).

Only in a restaurant would you find a menu and the sizes would then be shown - that's the law.

There's nothing to stop a publican in England selling beer in quantities other than a half or a pint - just so long as it is a multiple. I believe a schooner is a largish vessel of between two and three pints - am I right?

[bigmf]

Yes, a schooner is a 40 imperial oz. (Canada uses imperial measurements when not using metric) and is a large mug with a handle. They resemble those enormous Oktoberfest mugs (steins?) and are surprisingly heavy even when empty.

[Brownbeard]

In the US, most drinking establishment that sell quality beers also sell food. This is the case in the midwest anyway. If they do not serve food, they are generally a tavern. The average tavern does not serve good beer. That is why there tend to be menus. The pub is one thing we are definitely missing in the midwest. I really hope to get to the UK someday, so I can experience the English pub. You have to remember also that the US is such a large country that regional differences are big. Drinking establishments on the east coast do not reflect those in the midwest.

[Richard English]

In fact, although many people do not realise the fact, almost all pubs in England sell food - sometimes really excellent food. However, they differ from restaurants insofar as you can simply go in and buy a drink; you don't have to eat.

Again, in most pubs there is no waiter service, either for food or drinks - although the food may well be brought to your table after you've ordered it at the bar. Oh and incidentally, in English pubs you pay for food and drink at the time of ordering, not when you've finished. In a restaurant you pay at the end of the meal.

There used to be a difference between pubs, taverns and inns in England but that difference is now very blurred and the names tend to be used interchangeably here. So don't expect to get any clues from the name of the establishment as to what it is. The New Inn, the Bricklayers' Arms and the Station Tavern will almost certainly be much the same and will all be pubs.

[kevin]

Originally posted by Richard English
In fact, although many people do not realise the fact, almost all pubs in England sell food - sometimes really excellent food.

Do you order spotted dick? and what is it anyways?

[chazwicke]

Richard, Do you tip the barkeep at a pub? I am accustomed to tipping 20% in the States for restraunt service. I have left tips on the bar in pubs too. I have never really thought about it. I sometimes buy the barkeep a pint. What is the custom?

[Richard English]

In a restaurant, yes - unless there's a service charge already added. 20% is too much in the UK 10, or 15% if the service was stunning. If the service is rotten don't tip.

And NEVER tip a publican. A public house was originally just that. A house to which the public had been invited and that historical fact has made the pub what it still is. The landlord has invited you in as his guest (and can throw you out without giving any reason if he wishes) and you wouldn't tip your host when you visited a house for a party, would you?

So, if you want to show your appreciation you do what you would do if invited to a party - you bring a drink. Or more exactly, as you are in a place where there is plenty of drink on sale, you offer to buy the landlord a drink. He will either accept and pour himself one or, more usually, will say something like "I'll have a half with you" and take the amount from your change. Then, when he's ready, he'll have the drink (or he might just keep the money but the pretence is maintained that you've given him a present, not paid him money.

Most landlords will refuse a "drink" from a stranger buying his or her first round and say something like, "thanks, but I've got one here" and wave vaguely toward the back ot the bar. If you stay for a couple or return, you will probably have your offer accepted because you, too, will have been accepted.

[croc4]

Spotted disk is awesome!

It is a sponge cake with raisins (sultanas)(sp), that is then topped with warm custard (at least that is the way I used to get it back home)
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[sallad]

richard- i find that to be an extremely interesting piece of information! so far, i've never been to england, thus no true "public houses" but i hope to someday. at least now i know why they're called pubs! fascinating!