brewing process

[paulcgi]

alrighty then, I'm looking for some feedback .
I'm going to put some process control on my RIMS setup. I currently have a thermocouple in the heater chamber for the mash and I'm going to add one for the HLT.
For you (geek type) all grainers, what sorts of things would you like to know about your system, were you building a new one?

Mash temp and HLT temp are givens.. but what else? I'm building this from scratch and have TONS of displays (LCD and LED)
so I'll have at least 2 displays on the panel.. HLT temp and then set point and process value for mash.

I'm also thinking about putting in a graphical display and graphing mash temp vs time.. dont know exactly what it will bring me but I'm sure that it would look REALLY cool.
one of my graphical LCDs is also a touch screen.. SWEET! so I am thinking about using the touch screen of the LCD to be able to set mash temp. This way I can use it for step mashing etc. (set SP to say 122 then come back 20 mins later and use touch screen to bump temp to 144, etc)
anything else you guys can think of to add? now's the time to do it of course, as I write the code.
thanks

[corkybstewart]

If you want to go all-out geek, why not a pH monitor for your mash. That's just about as important as temp.

[paulcgi]

hmmmmm.........
I wonder what sort of value a pH meter outputs.

what I forgot to mention is that I have to balance all of the geekiness with the code-space available in the chip. I can go with the less geeky (but move visible) LEDs and have more codespace available for things like PID and pH, OR go with the much more geeky graphic LCD with less space available for pH & things...

but now, I'll have to do some research on pH probes and see what that would entail. specially with most probes needing to be stored wet

EDIT
uhhhhh. never mind.. cheapest pH electrode I could find (that would work) was $70. and they are only guaranteed for 1 year. then you either re-build or re-place. That was also for one that had exposed electrodes which I wouldn't want exposed in the process. I'll stick with my pHEP handheld meter ;-)

[MrNate]

Sounds like a great project. I've always been fascinated with the idea of automating the homebrew process.

I had a thought about the PH meter. I think it would be best utilized on the HLT to tell you whether or not the mash will (theoretically) attain the proper PH. Of course to do this, it would have to be connected to your computer and recipe software so it would have an accurate model.

I mean, yeah, the software should warn you when you develop the recipe, but if you're like me the tap water changes seasonally. I think it'd be kind of cool to have an alert that says, "Hey buddy - you need to add an ounce of roasted or this ain't gonna work out so well for you."

Bonus points, of course, if you could make it talk like KITT (complete with red LED display).

[MrNate]

Oh, and you should definitely have a flux capacitor on the mash tun.

[paulcgi]

well, I'm not gonna run this from a PC. I'm going to use an 8-bit 75mhz microcontroller. so, afaic, even geekier. I have to write everything, PID routines included (well, those are already written from my coffee roaster)
I was just trying to think of other things I could add in besides the temps. I'm not planning on completely automating this, but at least want the process control on mash and I'll throw in HLT temp..

if the pH probes weren't so expensive, I'd say even better would be to put a pH in mash and in HLT. then you could monitor the change in mash pH over time and know if you had to adjust or not. but it looks like at least from omega that the probes are expensive. I would also need one capable of being put in a compression fitting for inclusion in the plumbing

[danno]

have you found an inexpensive place for solenoid controlled valves? I'm not going to automate my entire production, but a float switch to control sparge water would make life much easier...

[paulcgi]

hey, good idea. might be pushing the limits of the controller, but hey, they're cheap. I could just run 2 of the things.
I've not found any cheap ones, but I have seen coffee maker solenoid valves from time to time cheap enough.
thanks

It would still be kinda cool to do pH and I did find some pH electrodes for < $60. but they are glass so I'm not sure how I would integrate them aside from just hanging them over the top of the tank and letting them kinda swim around ;-)

[MichaelM]

I thought it would be cool for automation that you could set the mash temps for your steps and the time for each step and have a PID run the mash to the temperature... hold it(maintain it if needed) for x time... then start the next step(if multi stepping) when temps reached hold it x time etc etc with an indicator to tell you you what step is completed what step your in, and so on and so forth... since you have a touchscreen you could always use that for your main input screen to set steps/temp/times with a few lcd/led readouts for different location temps mashtun/HLT etc.. and maybe another LED/LCD readout or two for time elapsed/remaining


but thats just me lol and I dont have the coding experience to do such things

[MrNate]

Why a float switch and not just a float valve?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by MrNate
Why a float switch and not just a float valve?

I'm guessing danno wants it to turn a pump on. I'd like a similar setup for a lauter grant

[paulcgi]

yea. that's where it's going to go eventually (michealm)
I'm not sure if I want to set the time in there or not.. for multi-step mashes. I dont want to automate myself out of brewing ;-)

but a protoboard for the controller is like $10 so no big deal if I had to run two of them. I could use one for HLT temp & mash volume for sparge and one for PID control of the mash along with timing the steps.
probably going to get myself in over my head anyway.

SWMBO just called to let me know that my SSRs & heat sinks have arrived.. so now all I have to do is sit down and start coding this stuff.


edit>
for the float switch you could also have the pump on full time, then use the solenoid valves to either bypass the lauter tun or direct sparge water into it. that way the level of water above the grain bed remains constant and the system would adapt itself as you change the flow rate out of the tun.

[MrNate]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I'm guessing danno wants it to turn a pump on. I'd like a similar setup for a lauter grant

Duh... I'm so used to gravity feed that I forget about pumps.

[barleyburps]

You people boggle my brain!!!!

[barleyburps]

It would probably nice if you could install some type of refractometer in your system so you would know to end your runoff. . .

[Beerbilly]

I have been thinking about doing something of the same sort. I am an a EE and work in the process control industry and figured it would be fun to automate my brew process as well. I have been thinking about building a SMALL fully automated HERMS unit capable of producing 3 gal batches. I like the idea of smaller batches as it will allow me to brew more often and with the added repeatability of a fully automated HERMS it should be able to procude fairly consistent results. To that end I just bought 4 cheap 5 gal stainless pots to experiment with. I figure I can build my own controller using a few microcontrollers. I also want to use an actuator controlled gas manifold instead of an electric heating element. This way I can make the system very portable by using a simple lead acid (car) battery to power the pump, solenoids and control circuitry, while a propane tank will handle all heating power requirments.

Bill

[paulcgi]

that would be pretty cool.
I am going to use a Parallax SX for this. If you happen to need some 4 digit 7-segment displays, let me know.. I have boatloads of the stupid things.
I have also thought about going with a parallax propellor for it, but my programming is not quite up to snuff on them (read: dont know squat about em yet)
I just picked up some opto22 ssrs and I've got some watlow firerod cartridge heaters. just need to work out the J type TC instead of the K type I've been using.
I thought about it at work, and I think for now I'm going to go with the 7-segment LEDs because of their high visibility. the LCD would be nice, but they are much harder to see. and I can easily have 3 of the 4 digit displays. one for HLT, one or SP and one for PV (of mash)

[Beerbilly]

Thanks for the offer. I have tons (literally) of components and parts so I am good there. I also have access to alot of solenoids, actuators, and pumps I need from work so this should be a cheap project.(yeah right)

I plan on using a PIC micro/133Mhz P1 to do my bidding.

I like the idea of 7 seg displays. We still use them for the very reason you cited, LCDs are just too hard to read quickly in poor lighting conditions. A couple of LED panel meters should do the trick.

I really want to try and fully automate this mini rig for fun, so we will see what kind of Rube Goldberg action I can achieve. I will start a web diary to keep ya'll informerd.

I think the hardest part is going to be building the actuator controlled burner. A simple closed loop program should do the trick with control. I just need to figure out the proper temp input vs armature travel curve.

Billy

[paulcgi]

are you going with pilot lights or electronic ignitors for the burners?
one of the nice things about the parallax propellor is that it has TV out built-in. a 5" TV screen would be pretty cool on the panel.
I am currently using a watlow 935a temp controller to do the dirty work on the mash. but that setup is only using 110v, so I'm only getting 400 watts out of my cartridge heater. It's kinda frightening to run 220v to a stand with like 10 gallons of water in it, but hey... it'll work

[danno]

Originally posted by MrNate
Why a float switch and not just a float valve? actually, a float valve had not occurred to me. but, the sparge water diffuser needs to be below the valve, so trying to rig in a float switch may be problematic. and, I do plan on adding another pump eventually and going to a single tier, so actuating a pump would be necessary...

a fully automated system is somewhat scary to me, I know I'd probably give it less than my full attention, and then all of a sudden you get a stuck sparge, a fully compacted mash, a cavitating pump, and then things really get ugly...

[Beerbilly]

Are you using a stamp protoboard? I originally planned on using just electric ignitors but I might go with both a pilot and an ignitor on the heat exchanger tank because of the constant adjusting that will be going on, same with the HLT, for the boiler I will just use a an ignitor. As for the odds of something horrible happening I will try my best to put fault detectors along with proper alarm systems (I have a really old air raid horn somewhere ;) . I do not plan on leaving it completely unatended anyway so it should not be a porblem.

I am going by a place tonight to score some servo motors for the manifold and valve controls. I also have to dust off my welder and find some square steel tubing.

[Red T]

Hey Paulcgi,
This system that you are building sounds pretty cool. I would hope that you are going to post some pictures when you are done. Maybe a diagram?!

[paulcgi]

sure. already have pics posted of most of the stuff using a watlow controller. I'm also putting together a site about the build of the system. Lots of it will be source code for the SX controller, but that's ok. maybe it will inspire someone to start programming them. loads of fun!

[Mad Scientist]

Paul & Beerbilly, when you get done, how about helping some ous with our own....

Beerbilly, can you send some of the solenoid valves out?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by danno

a fully automated system is somewhat scary to me, I know I'd probably give it less than my full attention, and then all of a sudden you get a stuck sparge, a fully compacted mash, a cavitating pump, and then things really get ugly...

That's my thinking - and I don't want to feel like a small scale AB.

[paulcgi]

Boerne.. sure! I'm already in contact with a guy to get boards made. Cost would be about $15 per board and then you'd have components on top of that.
As I'm building it, it would have 2 inputs (thermocouples)
2 outputs (SSR to run heaters) and then 3 LEDs for displaying temps

[Beerbilly]

Boerne- I will have to see how many I can get.
What I am actually planning on doing now is retrofitting regular ball valves with a stepper.

I want to use all off the shelf parts so someone else could easily duplicate my results. For this very same reason I decided to use all dicrete components in the brewery CPU. No micorcontrollers to program.

As for turning into AB. I dont think we need to worry about that escpeically with 3 gallon batches. My system will be no different than any other herms except that alot of the process "Can" be automated. This weekend I will start building an all manual version to get a hang of whats going on, then I will retrofit all of the automation parts.

My biggest problem right now is trying to find someone who can weld these cheapo 5 gal "stainless steel" stock pots. They were only 6 bucks each so it would be cool if I could get them to work. Anyone ever use silver solder on their brewing equipment?

I have done enough hijacking of this thread so I will start a new one with updates and links to a site for documentation.

Bill

[HogieWan]

Just a little ribbing with the AB comment.

[paulcgi]

beerbilly:
I've not done it, but I think that palmer talks about silver soldering SS pots. but then again you could just use weldless fittings and call it good. drilling holes is pretty easy.

what are you going to use to run the system?

[Beerbilly]

I am going to use a combination of discrete circuits to run the system.

I tried silver soldering and it does not work too well yet. My first hole shouldve be a bit more snug. I still have a few things to try, after which I will go ahead and assemble some weldless fittings.

[paulcgi]

oh.. yea.. you said that.

one thing to check with welding would be to see if you can find a local union house for the welders & pipe fitters. they welded fittings in for me for free. the only catch is that I have to provide pictures & diagrams that they can use for "teaching" the apprentices that come thru that shop

[MrNate]

...And then there was geeking; and lo: paulcgi did look down upon the geeking and did proclaim it was good.

[Beerbilly]

After a few practice runs I was indeed able to solder a 3/4" male fitting to the side of a elcheapo 5gal stainless stockpot. I used a silver solder that is supposedly for plumbing purposes. Its not very pretty but it does not leak.

Those copper fittings are only a buck. I am going to solder in another and mount my heat exchanger coil in this pot.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by MrNate
...And then there was geeking; and lo: paulcgi did look down upon the geeking and did proclaim it was good.

:D

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Beerbilly
After a few practice runs I was indeed able to solder a 3/4" male fitting to the side of a elcheapo 5gal stainless stockpot. I used a silver solder that is supposedly for plumbing purposes. Its not very pretty but it does not leak.

Those copper fittings are only a buck. I am going to solder in another and mount my heat exchanger coil in this pot.

Actually, that is not bad for the size of area you are trying to soldier.

[Beerbilly]

Its cheap, which is really good.

I figured out that the trick is to bring the temp of the work piece up really slow and keep the flame miles away from where the solder is to be applied.

I will still stick with having my kegs sanitary welded, but for a total of $6.00 for the kettle, $1.00 for the fitting and about a buck for the amount of gas, solder and flux used its a good deal and I can easily afford building an entire micro brewery on wheels for giggles.

Bill

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Beerbilly
I figured out that the trick is to bring the temp of the work piece up really slow and keep the flame miles away from where the solder is to be applied.


I used to be a jewler, and that is pretty much it....only problem with a lot of jewelry solders is that they are very clsoe to the actual melting point of the metal yuo are solering, so you really, really have to be careful.....

[Zman]

For step mashing, consider the Fuji pxr series PID temperature controller for about 140$. You can program it for multiple "ramp-soak" which means that you can input your step temperatures and times and then just let it go. It also has an optional RS485 connection for your computer and free software so you can have recipe programs stored on your PC and then just download them to the temp controller.
I don't know if this would fit into your system, but it sounds like you could do it.

[Zman]

or... if you want to get out the checkbook, look at this:
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=CNI_Series&Nav=temp02
it's a temperature controller that has its own webserver. Just plug it into your home network and access it through a web browser. They also offer active-x controls so that you can write programs around it using visual basic or excel.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Zman
For step mashing, consider the Fuji pxr series PID temperature controller for about 140$. You can program it for multiple "ramp-soak" which means that you can input your step temperatures and times and then just let it go. It also has an optional RS485 connection for your computer and free software so you can have recipe programs stored on your PC and then just download them to the temp controller.
I don't know if this would fit into your system, but it sounds like you could do it.

Many controllers, including those made by omega have rap-soak functions, and can also be loaded with a set of instructions.