Sparge water pH

[toneyc]

How important is sparge water pH? I forgot to put 5.2 in my second batch sparge this weekend. Just wondering if I'm gonna have an astringent bitter.

Back story: Since I moved to Georgetown 2.5 years ago, I have not made good beer. It has severely discouraged me to the point of considering giving up brewing altogether. I put out a plea for help on the local mailing list and got some suggestions that I took when brewing this weekend. When we moved in, we had a water softener system with an RO unit installed. This time, I used the water from before the softener and ran that through a carbon block filter. The brew session went really well. I had everything lined up and from start to finish was only four hours. Man I love that Shirron cooler! I do have to complain that the refractometer scale isn't granular enough. I read "9" before and after the boil. Anyway, I finished up with a little over 5 gallons of beautiful wort that I oxygenated then pitched my starter into. Activity in three hours. Looks like activity has stopped after three days. I'll probably transfer to secondary tomorrow.

:D
Toney.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by toneyc
How important is sparge water pH? I forgot to put 5.2 in my second batch sparge this weekend. Just wondering if I'm gonna have an astringent bitter.

:D
Toney.

sparge water pH is sort of important. You can still get a good brew if you didn't add the 5.2. What is your water chemistry like?

[Mad Scientist]

It is not the end of the world, but far more important to make sure it gets into the mash....

[vw addict]

A ph meter is my next step now that I have the mash/sparge down pretty good.

[toneyc]

Ya, I got it into the mash and the first sparge addition, I just forgot the second sparge addition. The water is pretty hard here, pH 9+.

:)
Toney.

[BrewDog]

Yeah, with water that alkaline, you really should get it down. It definitely runs the risk of astringency.

I don't understand your earlier comments, though. You got bad results WITH the RO water? Could you elaborate?

[toneyc]

My stout wasn't. It was watery and lifeless.
My "golden ale" wasn't. It was muddy and yucky. I've kept them (two cornies, a 10 gallon batch!) for several months hoping they would settle out and improve.
The Kolsch twins were ok, but just barely.
Seems like there was another something in there.
Hmmm, when I write it all out, there's only 2 bad batches. Now I feel whiney. There's got to be more in there, it's been over two years! All right, it looks like I've been making a mountain out of a mole hill here. I just need to buckle down and brew.

:eek:
Toney.

[dparsons]

If you were using softened water before, that will be a contributor to problems. Lots of salt.

[danno]

I'm brewing right now (came inside while mashing to warm up a bit...) I have 13 gallons of sparge water (waaay more than I need, but I always like having extra hot water around), I used 1 teaspoon of 88% lactic acid, it brought my sparge water pH from 9.0 to 5.6. since I've been treating my sparge water, my efficiency has improved by about 10 points. (however, I also adjusted my mill, so I can't attribute it all to either one of those things...)

[HogieWan]

toney, do you know the breakdown of minerals in your water? If you post that, we may be able to help. I had a problem with clarity until I got all the info on my water and realized that the bicarbonate was really high. However, a little gypsum and a little salt gives me London water. My clarity is now INCREDIBLE. My beer looks filtered, now!

[toneyc]

No, I don't have any idea what my water chemistry is like, other than "hard". I'll see if I can find a water report somewhere.

:)
Toney.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by toneyc
No, I don't have any idea what my water chemistry is like, other than "hard". I'll see if I can find a water report somewhere.

:)
Toney.

There should be one available from your water municipality unless you've got a well.

[Saint-Thomas]

I am confused. If water is hard, that means the pH is high, right? So the solution is to add gypsum? Calcium sulfate, aka plaster? In my work (pottery) I deal with things only on an elemental basis (due to high heat breaking down chemical bonds), so forgive me for not knowing any better, but I thought calcium has a high pH? Calcium carbonate (aragonite, aka limestone) is used as an antacid, and to raise pH in soil, I don't know the pH of gypsum.

I know my water is way above 7 (off the scale on the fish tank tester) so what do I need to do to get my pH in line? I've been filtering through a Britta, or using Campden to help liberate chlorine frowm my brew water.

What else should I be concerned with? If the mash pH is too high then it doesn't extract well, is that right?

[danno]

hardness and alkalinity are two separate (but intertwined) issues. fixing hardness won't necessarily bring pH into line. easiest way to adjust (lower) pH is with acid. I use 88% lactic acid, NB sells it for $3 for 4oz, which should last me several years.

[HogieWan]

You have to deal with not only the pH, but the ability of the water to buffer against pH changes. Barley malt will lower the pH, but a lot of carbonate or bicarbonate will keep the pH high. Calcium offset carbonates, but if you use calcium carbonate or calcium bicarbonate, you are adding carbonates with the calcium. I used gypsum (calcium sulfate) to fix my high carbonate water.

[B_rad1969]

It's my understanding that the more alkaline a water is, the more it will stabalize the PH. If you have water that is high in PH and is very alkaline, it will take more acid to bring the PH down.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by B_rad1969
It's my understanding that the more alkaline a water is, the more it will stabalize the PH. If you have water that is high in PH and is very alkaline, it will take more acid to bring the PH down.

Sorta but not quite. A buffer is an example of a moderate pH chemical that will neutralize more extreme pHs of the opposite sense. The amount of acid needed depends on what you have in your water.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Saint-Thomas
I am confused. If water is hard, that means the pH is high, right? So the solution is to add gypsum? Calcium sulfate, aka plaster? In my work (pottery) I deal with things only on an elemental basis (due to high heat breaking down chemical bonds), so forgive me for not knowing any better, but I thought calcium has a high pH? Calcium carbonate (aragonite, aka limestone) is used as an antacid, and to raise pH in soil, I don't know the pH of gypsum.


The Calcium in the Gypsum bonds with the Carbonate and this perciptiates out. Carbonate in solution is alkaline. Sulfate in solution is acid. Your pH is lowered and its buffering capacity diminished. Sulfate also accentuates Hop bitterness, so if your water is low in Sulfate and high in Carbonate its a good addition.

[B_rad1969]

Originally posted by dparsons
The Calcium in the Gypsum bonds with the Carbonate and this perciptiates out. Carbonate in solution is alkaline. Sulfate in solution is acid. Your pH is lowered and its buffering capacity diminished. Sulfate also accentuates Hop bitterness, so if your water is low in Sulfate and high in Carbonate its a good addition.

What is the typical addition amount of Gypsum. So, let me get this straight. I have a high PH and a reasonable amount of Carbonate. Here's my water profile. Should I use Gypsum?

Calcium 38.7
Carbonate-bicarbonate 181
Chloride 2
Magnesium 20.4
Nitrate >1
Nitrite >1
Potassium 2.86
Sodium 40.2
Sulfate 10.5
Chloroform 0
Chlorophenols
Copper 1
Iron .1-.2
Lead 0
Manganese .016
Nickel .1
Tin 0
PH 7.6
Total Alkalinity 138

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by dparsons
....so if your water is low in Sulfate and high in Carbonate its a good addition.

This is the case with most municipal waters. Sulfates tend to be high in well water where the water is produced fairly shallow.

That being said, B_rad, acording to your water report, both your sulfate is failrly low as far as brewing, and your calcuim is a bit low as well, so gypsum is a safe addition. You might also consider adding epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) with the gypsum, since your magnesium is a bit low as well.

edit: Actually, leave the magnesium content alone...I was wrong, it is just fine.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Saint-Thomas
Calcium carbonate (aragonite, aka limestone)

With they both have the same composition, calcite (limestone) and aragonite are different minerals, with each with distinct properties.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
This is the case with most municipal waters. Sulfates tend to be high in well water where the water is produced fairly shallow.

That being said, B_rad, acording to your water report, both your sulfate is failrly low as far as brewing, and your calcuim is a bit low as well, so gypsum is a safe addition. You might also consider adding epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) with the gypsum, since your magnesium is a bit low as well.

edit: Actually, leave the magnesium content alone...I was wrong, it is just fine.

Your carbonate levels are a bit high as well.

A teaspoon in 5 gallons will help.

[HogieWan]

My local water is very similar to yours. I use a teaspoon of gypsum and a teaspoon of canning salt (non-iodized) in the mash and 2 each in the sparge water. This makes all my water very similar to London's. My beers have become fantastically clear since I started with this simple addition.