Competitive tasting idea

[stronk]

I have just had an interesting thought (well I think it's interesting... :)).

At some point, I'd like to plan a competitive tasting event. The idea is that the guests would be given an assortment of 10 or 20 beers to taste (small samples at this point, mind, or we'd have a lot of 'this would go really well with a kebab' reviews), but not be told what each one is. They'd also be given a randomly-ordered list of all 20 beers (with their styles) and be asked to match each beer to its name. The prize for the most accurate would be something like a crate containing one bottle of every beer.

Once the gig was up and the correct names were given, people could be given the chance to taste them all again and see what power expectation really has over their experience of each beer and which beers are unexpectedly similar, good or bad.

When I've got all the time in the world, I guess...

[MeridianFC]

I've done a couple of blind tastings in the past (Pilsners, Winter Brews) and they've been really fun. It's suprising how much some beers really stand out and which ones will throw you for a loop.

[HarkJohnny]

we kinda do that at our homebrew club every Feb. We call it Name That Beer and do a round of 5 samples of a commercial beer. We play for points and the title of Super Duper Beer Naming King.

1 point for is it an ale or a lager
1 point for the style
1 point for the substyle
2 points for naming the exact beer

[HogieWan]

all these sound fun. I'd really like to try something like that.

[steveh]

Originally posted by HarkJohnny
1 point for is it an ale or a lager

Good luck if you ever use Smithwick's! Anchor Steam could be trouble too.

S.

[danno]

lol... some Russian Imperial Stouts are lagered, too...

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
lol... some Russian Imperial Stouts are lagered, too...

On purpose? Never heard that -- or do you mean Baltic Porters?

S.

(I was once asked by an Englishman at the Chicago Real Ale Festival why we are redundant in calling it Russian Imperial Stout. He was adamant that it should just be Russian or Imperial Stout, either inferring the other. I believe most of the older Imperial Stouts (Sam Smith for instance) out there are just called one or the other)

[danno]

doh! you're right, baltic porters... too many samples while brewing today, I guess...

[stronk]

Eggenberg Samichlaus is a lager, too.

I wish there were more people in the UK interested in this kind of thing. Actually, make that: 'I wish there were more people in the UK interested in this kind of thing, but not CAMRA members' (*dark look*).

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person in miles who would find this sort of thing a laugh. But if it were a blind wine tasting I was talking about, everyone within 100 yards would flock to me...

[fretlessman71]

Hmmmm... so what is it about CAMRA members? Not to open a can of worms here, and maybe it's fit for a different thread, but you mentioned it, and now I'm curious... is it because bottled beer that's not 'bottle conditioned' would spark a heated emotional debate that you're just not in the mood for? Whassup?

And for the record, if you did this in Colorado, I'd be all over it like white on rice. :D

[drewski]

Well I don't know about CAMRA but I did completely enjoy the cask conditioned ale I had recently. But bottled beer tastes good too, just different. All of these tastings sound great. If only I could find a cask for cheap...

[steveh]

Originally posted by stronk
Eggenberg Samichlaus is a lager, too.

Was there some doubt?

My comment on Smithwick's is because my first tastes made me wonder how it could be considered an ale -- it's very smooth and clean, no ale-like esters or flavor at all.

The trouble with Anchor Steam is that it's brewed with a lager yeast, but fermented at ale temps -- brings on some odd esters that could fool you when tasting blind.

The Samichlaus has always been similar in flavor to me as EKU-28 or other Eisbocks; very alcoholic, but flavor characters cleaner than any ale of similar ABV.

S.

[stronk]

Even the belgian strong ales? I was under the mistaken impression that bock was an ale (in which case some of the doppelbocks would have been similar in character to strong lagers).

My problem with CAMRA is that they are too narrow-minded. Unless it was a specifically cask-conditioned or bottle-conditioned tasting, they wouldn't be interested. CAMRA are the only beer-lover's club with a national profile, which means they suck up all the new beer fans and there is no room for a broader enjoyment of beer beyond CAMRA's consistent cask and pub campaigning (which switches a lot of people off again as soon as the GBBF is finished). If CAMRA were more broad-minded and less set in their ways, the public would be so much more interested in beer.

I used to run a beer tasting club at my old school (all above-board, don't worry) and most of the members would never have considered becoming CAMRA members.

[steveh]

Originally posted by stronk
Even the belgian strong ales? I was under the mistaken impression that bock was an ale (in which case some of the doppelbocks would have been similar in character to strong lagers).

Well, Weizendoppelbocks are top fermented (and I'll argue to the end that anything top fermented should automatically be labeled an ale.).

See, bock isn't even synonymous with bottom fermenting.

Belgian strong ales are cleaner than English style ales, but their yeast has a character all its own.

AFA CAMRA is concerned, I agree that they're too narrow-minded. Even though they champion a good cause, it shouldn't be at the detriment of something else that's good. It's back to lumping all lagers into yellow, fizzy, and bland. Just ain't so.

S.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by steveh
Well, Weizendoppelbocks are top fermented (and I'll argue to the end that anything top fermented should automatically be labeled an ale.).


I agree. You can "lager" an ale, but it's still an ale. I usually call it cold conditioning.

[MeridianFC]

To address a couple of points from above.

Smithwicks isn't clean, it's bland.

FWIW I've been to several CAMRA events that have had Foreign Beer Bars, wherein one can buy various international brews including lagers that don't fit their "Real" definition. They also put out the Good Beer Guide to Germany, Prauge & the Czech Republic, and Belgium all of which feature beer well outside of CAMRA's specific brief. I excuse much of the militancy of the organization because they've pretty much saved Real Ale, which even now is constantly under threat and is a very small portion of British brewing.

As far as Bocks and other strong lagers, they definitely have stronger tastes of alcohol and sweetness but they should not have any estery fruitness. Had a EKU 28 just last week which was a mouthfull, but no fruitness.

[fretlessman71]

Can you ale a lager as well?

And if you could, would they charge you less than a taxi? ;)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
FWIW I've been to several CAMRA events that have had Foreign Beer Bars, wherein one can buy various international brews including lagers that don't fit their "Real" definition. They also put out the Good Beer Guide to Germany, Prauge & the Czech Republic, and Belgium all of which feature beer well outside of CAMRA's specific brief. I excuse much of the militancy of the organization because they've pretty much saved Real Ale, which even now is constantly under threat and is a very small portion of British brewing.



I agree with Meridian. I'm a life member of CAMRA but I'm no where near as staunch as they are.

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I agree. You can "lager" an ale, but it's still an ale. I usually call it cold conditioning.

That wasn't my point. I'm back to arguing the practice of calling anything top fermented (such as a Weizen) and ale. I believe (with backing by the likes of Jackson) that ales are a sub-category of "Top Fermented Beer," along with Weizen, Porter, Stout, Wit, Lambic... et al.

But that's a debate for another thread...

Meridian - It can be clean and bland! ;) But it still has more flavor than BMC.

S.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh
But it still has more flavor than BMC.

S. I disagree... "cow urine and sugar" is indeed a flavor, is it not? ;)

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by steveh
That wasn't my point. I'm back to arguing the practice of calling anything top fermented (such as a Weizen) and ale. I believe (with backing by the likes of Jackson) that ales are a sub-category of "Top Fermented Beer," along with Weizen, Porter, Stout, Wit, Lambic... et al.

But that's a debate for another thread...

Meridian - It can be clean and bland! ;) But it still has more flavor than BMC.

S.

are you saying that stout and weizen shouldn't be called ale?

[stronk]

Isn't anything fermented with a yeast descended from Carlsberg Carlsbergensis a lager and anything else an ale?

I think the CAMRA debate is a little too close to the bone for discussion here. We'll get a pretty violent clash of opinions.

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
are you saying that stout and weizen shouldn't be called ale?

Yes. They should be called top fermented, not ale. Ale is a category of top fermented beer made up of Pale Ale (and all its derivatives), Scottish and Irish Ale, Belgian Ales, and French Ales. This is based on Jackson's beer tree in his New World Guide to Beer -- from memory, there are probably variances I can't recall correctly. I wish the tree was available online somewhere, if anyone has the book at hand...

And no, He didn't place Stout and Porter under the Ale category, but under top-fermented...though I can't recall where Mild falls, but more than likely under Brown Ale.

So Stronk, "anything else" is not an "ale," but top-fermented. Weizen, Wit, Alt, Kölsch, Stout, and Porter are all separate branches on the top-fermented limb of the beer tree -- at least according to Jackson, and I tend to agree with it.

It's only been recent that the designations have been dumbed down to lager and ale. But I can see the distinction between an ESB and a Hefeweizen plain as I can see it between IPA and Oktoberfest.

And Fret, we were talking beer, remember? Oatmeal and Etoufeé also have flavors, but at least they're both edible!

S.

[steveh]

I found a version of which I speak: http://www.hoppy.com/family/family.gif

(the author dropped his own brew in the ales, but what the hey)

And another: http://www.psgrill.net/Beer/Images/beerstyletree.jpg

Odd thing is, Alt and Kölsch are conspicuoulsy absent. They're "hybrid" of sorts, but they use top-fermenting yeast so I'd think they ought to have a branch on that limb.

S.

Alt is under ales on both diagrams.

[HogieWan]

I agree somewhat. But if stout isn't an ale, how the hell is a trappist one?

Maybe it's how I learned to distinguish things, but those trees make no sense to me.

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I agree somewhat. But if stout isn't an ale, how the hell is a trappist one?

I think it's a mix of yeast strains and historical timeline. I have Jackson's book packed away, so I can't get to it.

Maybe it's how I learned to distinguish things, but those trees make no sense to me.

Heh - but that's how I first learned to interpret! That's why I cringe every time I hear Weizen called an "ale."

No one else commenting on those trees?

S.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh

So Stronk, "anything else" is not an "ale," but top-fermented. Weizen, Wit, Alt, Kölsch, Stout, and Porter are all separate branches on the top-fermented limb of the beer tree -- at least according to Jackson, and I tend to agree with it.



A well made Kolsch can be sublime. No matter which way it is catagorized. ;)

[danno]

I'll disagree, but my perspective is that of a brewer, so I'm focusing on the ingredients moreso. I'm just as likely to use an English Ale Yeast in a stout as in a pale ale. so to me, they're both ales...

one issue with those trees I see after just a cursory glance, it's easy to argue that porters and brown ales are linked. (a brown porter is essentially just a "bigger" mild...)

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
I'm just as likely to use an English Ale Yeast in a stout as in a pale ale. so to me, they're both ales...

But if I recall correctly, didn't ale yeast develop from Porter/Stout yeast? Porter was around before Bitter or Special Bitter, right?

one issue with those trees I see after just a cursory glance, it's easy to argue that porters and brown ales are linked. (a brown porter is essentially just a "bigger" mild...)

English Brown Ale is its own category (with mild in its string) separate from Porter in the BJCP guidelines - though they do attribute the mild to have evolved from Porter - the Mild actually being a lighter Porter (opposite eveolution to what you stated).

All I can do is point to Jackson and shrug, he's the closest we have to the true historian. I've had his book and this tree since 1990, and it was published well before that.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Not to muddy the waters but I thought in Jackson's "Beer Companion" he devided the world into Ale and Lager (with Lambic being a wild card but under the Ale section). I'll pull it out tonight and confirm.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Not to muddy the waters but I thought in Jackson's "Beer Companion" he devided the world into Ale and Lager (with Lambic being a wild card but under the Ale section). I'll pull it out tonight and confirm.

Hah! Maybe he gave in to the turning tide of dumbing things down to the 2 divisions with that book. But I really can't see him putting Weizen and Bitter under the same umbrella -- I find that "Pure Yeast" designation interesting.

Interesting game being advertised at White Labs: http://www.yeastbank.com/brewmastergame/Images/board.htm

Note the six beer style designations...

S.

[MeridianFC]

I don't think it's necessarily dumbing down, in the end it's either fermented with Saccharomyces cerevisiae or Saccharomyces uvarum (with of course Lambic and Weizen being a odd men out). Processes, ingredients, and results can vary greatly but it does boil down to those two, with the noted exceptions.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by steveh

Interesting game being advertised at White Labs: http://www.yeastbank.com/brewmastergame/Images/board.htm

Note the six beer style designations...

S.

now those categories start to make a bit of sense in that belgians are NOT under british ales, which is what really threw the wrench in the logic machine for me with your trees

I can see that the trees are semi-historic in nature where I rather see them in true stylistic categorization. I'm with danno in that the type of yeast used define the categories (ale yeast ferments ale, lager . . ., weizen, trappist , . . ., etc)

[MeridianFC]

In my mind, and based on Jackson and others, I've always organized the beer world like:

Ale Family

*Lambic (Spontaneously feremented Ale)
Gueze - Framboise/Kriek/Peche/Etc. - Faro - Unblended

*Weizen(Speical Ale yeasts, Saccharomyces delbrueckii, special bacteria etc.)
Bavarian Weizen - Berliner Weiss - Weizenbock - Roggen

*German Ale
Kolsch
Altbier

*British & Irish Ale
Mild
Bitter - Best Bitter - ESB - IPA
60/- 70/- 80/- 90/- Export - Herbed/Spiced
Old Ale - Winter Warmer - Barleywine - Strong Ale
Porter - Stout
Brown
Irish Red

*Belgian/French/Dutch Ale
Trappist/Abbey (Engel, Dubbel, Tripel, Quadrupel)
Flemish Red
Bierre de Garde
Wit/Saison (though these maybe should go under Weizen)
Innumberable other speicialty styles

*American Ale
APA - AIPA - Double/Imperial Ales
Cream Ale
American version of any of the above
Innumberable other specialty styles

*Others
Sahti - Kvass - etc.

Lager Family

* Dunkel - Schwarzbier - Euro Dark - American Dark - Baltic Porters

* Marzen - Oktoberfest - Vienna

* Helles

* Pilsner/Pils (Czech, German, Danish, American, etc.)

* Bock - Maibock, Blond Bock, Doppelbock - Euro Strong Lager

* American (macro) Light Lager - Lite - Dry - Japanese Light Lager - Mexican Light Lager - British Keg lager

*Steam Beer

*Other miscl.
Keller - Rauch - Fruit -



Obviously I haven't included everything but this sort of division has always made sense to me.

[danno]

another conspicuous absence is what constitutes the largest portion of the beer market, light lagers.

just remember, steve wanted to argue about this, I'm just obliging him... :D (although, let me know if I seem to be getting too contrarian (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/man_who_plays_devils)) I'd say the tree should have many more intertwining roots...

more intertwining root examples... first, Alt can be aligned under either ale or lager. and, it should be more realistically under "dark mild" than "pale ale". second, "Belgian Brown/Red" linked under "Old Ale"? (I'm making the leap that they're talking about Flanders type sour ales, since I can't really see what else it would be...) I'd say it's much closer to the "spontaneous fermentation" types, although they don't typically use wheat. third, the ale/lager split isn't as cut and dried as we'd like to think. what's the difference between a cream ale and an american lager? they use pretty much an identical grain and hop bill, the only difference being the yeast. I'd say that's a much closer comparison than to several direct links, such as Alt and IPA, or N English Brown and Strong Scotch...

and why would we separate out weizens? American Hefeweizens use a standard ale yeast, the same one that ferments pale ales and IPA's...

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
with your trees

Not mine, Jackson's -- keep that in mind.

Meridian, the "noted exceptions" shoot holes in the Ale/Lager category designation. It's why I've always stuck with Top/Bottom.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
just remember, steve wanted to argue about this, I'm just obliging him... :D

I prefer debate.

Light Lagers would fall under Munich>Pale or Lager>Pils/Dortmund-Export

Low alcohol pretenders to the beer title shouldn't be on the tree at all, perhaps in the roots. But that does bring up more questions because of all I've heard about some of the yeast strains being used by macros - some that can't be categorized in either top or bottom fermenting because they've been so cross-bred (or something to that effect).

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
Alt can be aligned under either ale or lager.

No, it's only lager in a process of aging storage, not a brewing process of yeast usage -- I know, confusing cross-use of a word, but it's verb vs noun.

American Hefeweizens use a standard ale yeast,

Which is why they shouldn't be called Hefeweizens. :-/ Actually, the truer statement is that they aren't Southern German Weizens - the true Hefeweizen.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
Not mine, Jackson's -- keep that in mind.

Meridian, the "noted exceptions" shoot holes in the Ale/Lager category designation. It's why I've always stuck with Top/Bottom.

S.

How so? Every rule's gotta have an exception right? ;) For convenience sake I always throw the noted exceptions in the Ale category.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
How so? Every rule's gotta have an exception right? For convenience sake I always throw the noted exceptions in the Ale category.

There are always exceptions, but not always noted exceptions -- of which the likes of a Schneiderweiß should never be tossed about with lack of regard! :)

S.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by steveh
Not mine, Jackson's -- keep that in mind.

Meridian, the "noted exceptions" shoot holes in the Ale/Lager category designation. It's why I've always stuck with Top/Bottom.

S.

Jackson may have invented the trees, but you brought them up.

In my mind ale is top and lager is bottom, so we are arguing the same thing with different words (in a sense). Cream ale is an ale (it;s in the bloody name) and Macro Lager is a lager. Modern Schwarzbeir is not that far from porter or stout, but I wouldn't put then in the same category.

[danno]

Originally posted by steveh
No, it's only lager in a process of aging storage, not a brewing process of yeast usage -- I know, confusing cross-use of a word, but it's verb vs noun. this from the BJCP style guidelines (for 7A, I highlighted...) (http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/Category7.html):

Comments: Most Altbiers produced outside of Dusseldorf are of the Northern German style. Most are simply moderately bitter brown lagers. Ironically "alt" refers to the old style of brewing (i.e. making ales), which makes the term "Altbier" somewhat inaccurate and inappropriate. Those that are made as ales are fermented at cool ale temperatures and lagered at cold temperatures (as with Dusseldorf Alt).

Ingredients: Typically made with a Pils base and colored with roasted malt or dark crystal. May include small amounts of Munich or Vienna malt. Noble hops. Usually made with an attenuative lager yeast.

[steveh]

Originally posted by danno
Most Altbiers produced outside of Dusseldorf

But how many are really produced in this manner? It's like the cross production of Baltic Porter as top fermented and bottom fermented (and probably for a similar reason).

And yeah, BJCP uses the term "ale" at will too.

Danno - bring this debate up at your next judge's gathering. It would be interesting to hear the opinions.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
Jackson may have invented the trees, but you brought them up.

Yes, I brought it up because I learned it from one of the highest authorities on the subject in this world. And cream ale may be cream ale, but Bavarian Hefeweizen doesn't strike me any more like a Best Bitter than your Schwarzbier does your Porter.

Uh, unless it's a Baltic Porter.

Talk about muddying the waters!

S.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by stronk
I have just had an interesting thought (well I think it's interesting... :)).

At some point, I'd like to plan a competitive tasting event. The idea is that the guests would be given an assortment of 10 or 20 beers to taste (small samples at this point, mind, or we'd have a lot of 'this would go really well with a kebab' reviews), but not be told what each one is. They'd also be given a randomly-ordered list of all 20 beers (with their styles) and be asked to match each beer to its name. The prize for the most accurate would be something like a crate containing one bottle of every beer.

Once the gig was up and the correct names were given, people could be given the chance to taste them all again and see what power expectation really has over their experience of each beer and which beers are unexpectedly similar, good or bad.

When I've got all the time in the world, I guess... Dragging this thread by its dug-in heels back to topic, would any of you having the discussion on semantics be willing to host such an event?

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Dragging this thread by its dug-in heels back to topic, would any of you having the discussion on semantics be willing to host such an event?

Only if we can agree on the rules. :D

S.