World's Top 25 Beer Countries

[Jake]

Biggest Beer Drinkers (Liters per capita 2005)

1. Czech Republic 160.5
2. Ireland 127.4
3. Germany 109.9
4. Austria 105.8
5. Belgium 98.6
6. United Kingdom 95.7
7. Denmark 92.5
8. Slovakia 92.4
9. Australiia 87.7
10. Venezuela 83.3
11. United States 82.8
12. Spain 82.1
13. Finland 81.7
14. Hungary 80.1
15. New Zealand 77.3
16. Netherlands
17. Poland
18. Portugal
19. Canada
20. Romania
21.Bulgaria
22.Russia
23. Switz
24. South Africa
25. Norway

Source: Euromonitor International

[Jake]

Beer is close to Europe's heart. Or, one might say, beer dominates the geographic heart of Europe. A line drawn northwest from central Europe bisects the great beer brewing and quaffing countries, the "beer belt" of the Czech Republic, Germany, Belgium, the United Kingdom, and Ireland. Austrians still have an imperial thirst, but their beer culture is much diminished since the days of empire.

Historically, what people drank generally depended on what they grew, says beer expert Michael Jackson. "If your climate is temperate but warm, you grow fruits and make wine. If it's temperate but colder, you grow grain and make beer. If the weather is colder still, you grow grain but tend to make distilled spirits." The beer belt is expanding. Beer sales in vodka-loving eastern Europe and former Soviot republics have been growing steadily.

Chris Carroll

[MeridianFC]

We're getting worked by Venezuela? Come on brothers and sisters let's do it for our country!

:D

[Jeff]

I figure I am easily drinking 129 liters a year. I'm only one man, I can only make up for so many.... :D

[mookow]

I assume they dont count homebrew, in which case I'm probably only pulling my weight. Now, if they were to count homebrew...

[dparsons]

160 liters is < 9 batches over a year. I've brewed more than that since the start of this beer year (starts with Hop harvest).

[steveh]

Sorry, I had to cut back on my consumption for health reasons. I didn't realize it would make such an impact. ;)

S.

[Jake]

100 Liters= 26.4 gallons. That is only 47 six packs. They figure all beer sales divided by total population. The countries with the largest non-beer drinking population will have lower per capita comsumption. That really don't reflect the dedication of that countries actual beer drinkers

[Wilson]

I wonder how it breaks down by US States.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Wilson
I wonder how it breaks down by US States.

The Beer Institute (the big brewers industry group) has a downloadable Excel file here:

http://www.beerinstitute.org/statistics.asp?bid=200

Page 20 is "Per Capita Beer Consumption by State"

Looks like the top 5 states are NH, NV, ND, MT and WI, at 31.1-27.6 gallons per person. (Something tells me that that NH figure is affected by the fact that MA, VT and ME folks often buy beer in that neighboring no sales tax state).

[Insidious Rex]

So the Czech's down brew at the rate of almost 20 cases a year for every man women and child in the country? Talk about team work. Thats awfully impressive...

[corkybstewart]

If it is based on sales US consumption is off. We are probably the most active homebrewing nation. My household has consumed about 150 gallons of homebrew in the past year as opposed to probably 8 cases of storebought. Add all the homebrew consumed and we would probably move up ahead of Venezuela at least.

[Richard English]

Drink consumption (of any kind of drink) can only accurately be based on sales. Home-made drinks, whatever they are, can only be estimated on the basis of the sales of ingredients - and most ingredients could be used for other purposes.

Unless home brewers submit data to a central registry (I'm certainly not suggesting they should do so!) then the home-brew figure can be no more than a guess and, I suggest, probably an overestimated one in this community, where home-brewers are rife.

Home-brewing became very popular in England in the 1970s when when our Chancellor of the Exchequer removed the requirement for home-brewers to have a licence. However, at that time we were still in the early days of CAMRA; many pubs didn't sell good beer and bottle-conditioned beer was down to a mere 4 examples.

Now that good cask-conditioned beer is again available in most pubs and we have some 650 BCAs brewed in England alone, the need for home brewing has diminished and it is far less popular. Few towns now have a home-brew supplier and much of what they do supply is aimed at wine-makers, not brewers.

I suspect that the USA is going through a similar process as did England and that home-brewing will become less attractive once good commercial beers are cheaply and readily available again.

[jesskidden]

Yes, I was surprised to read about the UK's home brewing scene seemingly dying. I think it was mentioned in a thread on another beer group when a UK poster said he'd never heard of anyone home brewing.

When I started brewing in the US (mid-70's- still technically "illegal" at the time) almost all the books and most of the materials were British in origin and made for some difficult brewing, and not just from converting quantities and "translating" from English to "American"- i.e., "...most use a dustbin for a primary fermenter...", "treacle" added to dark beers.... Uh... *what*?

One book suggested bringing home draft beer and cultivating yeast from it. (US draft, tho' not pasteurized, was so heavily filtered, I don't think that would have been possible). Another suggestion was buying lactose for milk stout by going down to the chemist, where it would be on the shelf. I knew the "chemist" was our "drug store", but when I asked for it, the "kindly old druggist" came out from behind his counter and inquired what I wanted it for. Hmmm...recall that homebrewing wasn't legal at the time, tho' the common wisdom was that no one was ever busted for it, but still... I mumbled something about a recipe in an old English cookbook. He told me he and most other stores no longer stock it because it was used by drug dealers to cut heroin.

I also remember my first trip to the UK and finding a HUGE homebrewing section in a Woolworth's that we stopped into to have an extra key made for our rental car. It was bigger than any homebrew shop I'd ever scene, which totalled two, one in the LA area and one outside Princeton NJ. The latter was primarily a wine making shop and the owner was somewhat paranoid about beer making and would answer questions reluctantly until she "knew" you.

I'm somewhat surprised at the popularity of home brewing on this site; I, like my UK fellow brewers I guess, sort of dropped out of the hobby as good beers became commonplace in the my region. (At least, that's the excuse all us lazy people give...<g>).

[Richard English]

I still make wine from country ingredients but even that is now less common for me.

In the UK the primary reason for wine-making was different from that for beer-making. We have always had a vast range of wines to choose from in the UK so it wasn't lack of choice but lack of cash. Wine was always a very expensive drink compared with beer but that has changed over the past few years. Partly due to tax harmonisations between EC countries, partly due to UK taxes having been increased less on wines and spirits than on beers and partly due to increased competition now that the range of wines is even greater than it was.

So the need to save money on wines is less than it used to be and those who still make wine do it for the pleasure of being able to create a drink from, say, rose-hips that will stand comparison with anything one can buy.

[Jake]

Originally posted by Richard English

I suspect that the USA is going through a similar process as did England and that home-brewing will become less attractive once good commercial beers are cheaply and readily available again. [/B]

I don't home-brew but from what I have read from here many of the home-brewers might of started out home-brewing because of lack of good beer. I think many now do it as a hobby, art, and the love of creating. As a bonus they will get some great and unique tasting beer. You home-brewers correct me if I'm wrong.

[corkybstewart]

You nailed that Jake. 2 years ago 95% of the beer I drank was homebrewed. Now that's down to probably 80%. Since I have to travvel great distances to get most beer I like, homebrewing will remain my predominant source for beer. But I primarily do it now for the creativity it allows me.

[MeridianFC]

Not to threadjack this too far but I was trying to find a figure for the number of homebrewers in the US now. I remember back when I was homebrewing it was partially out of the desire to brew but also to make things I couldn't get or get easily, but now like a lot of folks I've less time and the availibility of great and interseting brew is pretty high.

I tried the ol' Google and a scouring of the AHA site but I can't find any homebrew figure stats, anybody have any ideas?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Jake
I don't home-brew but from what I have read from here many of the home-brewers might of started out home-brewing because of lack of good beer. I think many now do it as a hobby, art, and the love of creating. As a bonus they will get some great and unique tasting beer. You home-brewers correct me if I'm wrong.


I was homebrewing before 78 when it became legal. Before that we used British kits that my buddy brought back. His dad was an English diplomat and they were over there frequently. I stopped brewing about 94. There was so much good beer available then that there was much less reason to brew other than for the fun.
In the 70s and up until about 86 homebrewed beer was a necessity.

[dparsons]

It may also be that after doing it for a number of years it isn't quite as much fun. I can buy good beer and would spend less money that I have on brewing equipment, but I'm doing this because I'm having fun.

[barleyburps]

. . . It definitely can become a chore. . . If only I could get my beer somewhere else. . . .

[Stonch]

I'd be interested to find out what these homebrews people are producing actually taste like!

With the odd exception, are they really drinkable by anyone but the person who brewed them and their long-suffering family and friends?

;)

__________________
Stonch's Beer Blog:
Stonch is a Londoner and a beer lover.
http://stonch.blogspot.com

[MeridianFC]

My guess is some are actually very good. I think the explosion in the number of homebrewers since the 1990s which led to better ingredients, equipment, and general knowlege has led to in improvement by leaps and bounds over the first, and it must be said, nortorious forays into homebrewing (all in one kits, brewing with Fleischmans bread yeast, sugar being a main component, etc.) here post 1977.

If my own experience is anything to go by, it's possible to make a very tasty brew in one's house. As objective as I can be, I did make one or two batches back in the day that I thought were pretty mighty, made quite a few that were very good, a number that satisfied, and one or two that were frankly bland. In all honesty there was only two batches I ever dumped and that's because I broke the thermometer in one and the other batch I thought was outright bad.

Of the few homebrews from others that I've sampled I'd have to say most were ok to good, a few were just not to my taste, probably because the brewer had thrown in everything but the kitchen sink, and there were of course a small number that I could only manage the polite sips of. I think another problem is many folks dip their foot in but don't have the dedication to really hone their brewing chops so they never make the leap to a higher level of quality. The "professionalism" with which many of the brewers here discuss their procedures and wares would have me believe that there are some more than drinkable pints to be had.

I'd liken homebrewing to cooking, which is its natural compliment. I know many folks that cook at home, a few are great, many are good, and a few, bless 'em, can't boil water. It's rare to eat a meal in the home of a friend that, based soley on quality of food, can compare to that served in a world class restaurant, but it's not to difficult to find one that equals or surpasses what's on offer in a more modest establishment and is full on better than what's proffered at the local chain. I'd say the same has been true of my experience with homebrews. I don't think I've ever encountered a world beater, but I've had a few that could match a micro, and only a handful that were worse than macro.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Stonch
I'd be interested to find out what these homebrews people are producing actually taste like!

With the odd exception, are they really drinkable by anyone but the person who brewed them and their long-suffering family and friends?


The short answer is yes. The longer answer is that it depends on the brewer. I've had homebrews from bad to better than anything I've bought to date. The best way to find out what can be done is to take the plunge.

[chazwicke]

When I used to homebrew, I can say that our beers were decent and drinkable most of the time. They were certainly better than what we could buy easily. But I've sooo many better professionally brewed beers. I was never brewing at the level that many Realbeer folks do though. And if I were ever to do it again, I'd do it right with the best equiptment. Larger all grain batches, conicle fermenters and keg the brews.

[Jake]

I have many times thought serously about homebrewing. But after looking into the start up cost and time involved I always decide against it. Besides that I'm lazy and I rather pay someone else to fix it, build it, grow it, graze it, brew it!

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Jake
I have many times thought serously about homebrewing. But after looking into the start up cost and time involved I always decide against it. Besides that I'm lazy and I rather pay someone else to fix it, build it, grow it, graze it, brew it!

If brewing isn't fun that is the best way to go. Your own time is about what you enjoy.

[Cass]

Unbelievable the US drinks more than Canada... then again, all your watered down beer... LMAO jk! Odd though.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Cass
Unbelievable the US drinks more than Canada... then again, all your watered down beer... LMAO jk! Odd though.

Might be just more beer. An perhaps you are right about the water content.

[Richard English]

[i]Unbelievable the US drinks more than Canada... then again, all your watered down beer... LMAO jk! Odd though. [/B] Where was this information posed on this site?

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Richard English
Where was this information posed on this site?

Its in the statistics at the start of this thread.

[Richard English]

Many thanks.

I have seen these statistics previously and it is interesting how there is a strong correlation between beer quality and consumption. Not 100% accurate (Ireland is not as good a country as is the UK for beer quality and variety) but still pretty close.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Richard English
Many thanks.

I have seen these statistics previously and it is interesting how there is a strong correlation between beer quality and consumption. Not 100% accurate (Ireland is not as good a country as is the UK for beer quality and variety) but still pretty close.

You mean people drink more beer if it tastes better!? What a concept. ;)

[Richard English]

Originally posted by dparsons
You mean people drink more beer if it tastes better!? What a concept. ;) Yes. Revolutionary, I know. But one of the interesting statistics is that the USA (where good beer has become far more easily available over the past 20 years or so, beats Canada where good beer is only now beginning to make headway against the floods of Molson and its clones.

Craft beers are still a minute proportion of beer production in both Canada and the USA so it will take a few more years yet before good beers are available in just about every pub or bar.

[Cass]

I don't think the quality has anything to do with it. Those stats are consumption are they not? You have to look at population. Canada only has roughly 35 million people as opposed to the US which has like 300 million or something. If Canada outdrank that I'd have to say we're a bunch of alcoholics. Could be the same with Ireland and the UK. Although, I'm Irish, so I'm partial to Ireland having the #2 spot, hahaha. But my main point is that I don't think that quality of the beer has any merit in the study.

[Richard English]

The statistics I saw were per person, per year - and I expect the ones quoted here are the same. The total alcohol consumption of a country is a different statistic and I would expect the USA's 300 million to outdrink Canada's 30 million by a convincing margin on that scale.

Quality may, or may not, have anything to do with it - but I think the hypothesis is not unreasonable. On the scale I saw the top four slots were occupied by Ireland, Germany, Austria and Belgium. The bottom four were occupied by Sweden, Japan, France and Italy. I know from personal experience that the beer brewed in the top four countries is better in range and quality than that brewed in the bottom four.

[dparsons]

I'd bet a certain percentage is based on quality. Some people will drink garbage because it is labeled beer. Other people will find something else to drink if presented with garbage.

Richard, your observation about the top 4 and bottom 4 countries is an interesting correlation. It doesn't prove cause and effect though. It could be that people in Japan like their Sake and Plum Wine and don't apply themselves to making beer with the same ferver so its not as good. It can also be that people choose to drink Sake and Plum Wine becaue their beer is terrible. It can also be both and probably is. The two cycles aren't mutually exclusive and will feed into each other.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Richard English
On the scale I saw the top four slots were occupied by Ireland, Germany, Austria and Belgium. The bottom four were occupied by Sweden, Japan, France and Italy. I know from personal experience that the beer brewed in the top four countries is better in range and quality than that brewed in the bottom four.

Richard - I'd disagree on one point.

Personally, I think Italy is a more interesting country for brewing than Ireland right now. If you don't believe me, I'd invite you to first take a look at the results of a recent beer hunting trip undertaken by yours truly in Rome (http://stonch.blogspot.com/search/label/Birra%20in%20Roma).

Then, consider how many genuinely good brewers are operational in Ireland. The market is obscenely dominated by the likes of Guinness, Harp, American Budweiser and Carlsberg. As for the smaller brewers, most of them aren't very good at all (Porterhouse being a prominent example).

I'd be interested to read a spirited defence of Irish brewing, and hope this provokes one!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
As for the smaller brewers, most of them aren't very good at all (Porterhouse being a prominent example).

I'd be interested to read a spirited defence of Irish brewing, and hope this provokes one!

Porterhouse being an example, or an exception? On the 2 trips I've made to Dublin I've enjoyed a few beers at the Porterhouse and never been disappointed. I've also greatly enjoyed the brews from Carlow Brewing and even tipped a few with owner Shamus O'Hara - quite the fine stout he's brewing.

On the other hand, I can't turn and damn Italian brewing because, frankly speaking, I'm only familiar with Moretti - who make good and not so good examples.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
results of a recent beer hunting trip undertaken by yours truly in Rome (http://stonch.blogspot.com/search/label/Birra%20in%20Roma).


Quite telling that the 2 "Italian" beers mentioned in your piece are of English style...and brewed by Englishmen. I'd have to say that when I think of Italy, beer isn't the first libation that comes to my mind -- as it does when I think Germany, England, Irealand - and even Austria.

S.

[Stonch]

Why does beer come to mind with Ireland for you, though? How many interesting beers can you name that come from Ireland? I'd be genuinely interested in hearing this as I accept I may be missing something, just as you're missing something about Italian beer.

As for your point about these Italian beers being English in style: the beer people associate with Ireland (i.e. dry stouts) are English style beers too. And Arthur Guinness was an Englishman, remember!

Furthermore: it seems to me that the American beers I see raved about on websites like this aren't styles devised in the USA. Indeed, isn't steam beer/california common just about the only truly American beer style? So if you want to apply that logic to Italy, would you be willing to apply it to the USA as well?

Here's another Italian "craft" beer I particularly like by the way - not English in style, but Flemish - http://stonch.blogspot.com/2007/04/panil-barrique-from-modena-italy.html.

It's a shame I didn't pick up bottles of the many distinctively Italian styles I encountered over there. There's some really interesting stuff. I'll email my contact there and get more details to report back.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
Porterhouse being an example, or an exception? On the 2 trips I've made to Dublin I've enjoyed a few beers at the Porterhouse and never been disappointed. I've also greatly enjoyed the brews from Carlow Brewing and even tipped a few with owner Shamus O'Hara - quite the fine stout he's brewing.

On the other hand, I can't turn and damn Italian brewing because, frankly speaking, I'm only familiar with Moretti - who make good and not so good examples.

S.

It's an example of a ropey Irish micro. Porterhouse ship their beers to London and own two fairly grim bars where they're sold. Apart from a boring cask ale, it's all nitrokeg stuff and it's all pretty dreadful in my opinion.

Carlow Brewing is OK. Nothing special though, so if that's all anyone can come up with I rest my case.

Moretti is owned by Heineken. It's just a macrobrewer, and Italian beer should no more be judged on the basis of such beer as America should be on Budweiser or the UK should on the basis of Carling.

[fretlessman71]

So isn't all beer really Egyptian in origin, if you take this to its logical conclusion?

[chazwicke]

Mesopotamia is where the earliest evidence of beer has been found.


With regard to Italian brews

DC-Beer was filled with recommendations a few months ago. Seems there are many craft breweries popping up and several DC-beer folks have travelled there or investigated. It really sounds as though things are improving there now. Last time I was there I drank a couple different Forst beers (Maybe Sixtus. I also think there was once a Splugen Oro? )but I can't recall. It was long ago. We get a maybe 3 or 4 Italian beers in my area in the States and none are really all that noteworthy.

[mookow]

Originally posted by Stonch
I'd be interested to find out what these homebrews people are producing actually taste like!

With the odd exception, are they really drinkable by anyone but the person who brewed them and their long-suffering family and friends?

;)

If you are willing to pay the shipping cost (and risk the Customs hassle), I'll ship you a couple bottles of homebrew and you can review them here at RealBeer. Obviously I cant guarantee that they wont suffer from the shipping conditions, but I wont send anything low ABV, either, and so the effects of said abuse during shipping should be minimal.

[dparsons]

I think the Italians aren't known for brewing and aren't as big in brewing because of their history as a warm-climate country. Beer brewing nations are typically more temperate and wine making countries are typically warmer. The Italians have historically made wine because grapes grew better than hops and barley. In this period of history trade is more feasible on larger scales and communication is more open, so it is more feasible for Italians to brew beer.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
So isn't all beer really Egyptian in origin, if you take this to its logical conclusion?

Yes, exactly my point.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Why does beer come to mind with Ireland for you, though? How many interesting beers can you name that come from Ireland?

As for your point about these Italian beers being English in style: the beer people associate with Ireland (i.e. dry stouts) are English style beers too.

Beer comes to mind as the beverage of choice when I think of Ireland, not so when I think of Italy.

I find all the beer from Ireland interesting, similar in style or not. Your statement was that the beer in Italy was more interesting, yet it's the same style of beer you can find down the street from where you live.

As far as those "Italian" beers being English in style, that was no insult - just pointing out that there's really no Italian style beer. Moretti is very German in style, and the pub you enjoyed so much was English in style, as was its beer.

Whether you like it or not, most people think of Ireland when they think Stout these days - the Irish have made the style their own while the English have gravitated to Bitter...er, unless you're a youngster - then you've gravitated to light lager swill, unfortunately.

IIRC, Porter as a style was almost lost in England while it was still popular in Ireland, keeping the link to Stout strong on the Emerald Isle.

And Arthur Guinness was an Englishman, remember!

Hmm? http://www.gallot.co.nz/Guinness/Arthur_Guinness.htm
While it doesn't follow his father's lineage, Arthur was born and raised in Ireland, good enough for me (even though that's not really the argument here).

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
Beer comes to mind as the beverage of choice when I think of Ireland, not so when I think of Italy.

Your point about finding "all the beer from Ireland interesting" - do you include Harp Lager in that? Do you include Guinness, Murhpy's and other mass produced beers?

You say there are no "Italian style beer". There are Italian style beers - for example they're using grape juice in the brewing process to create what you might consider beer/wine hybrids. In any case, I just don't see it as a valid point as the same could be applied to most countries, including Ireland.

I don't mean to be argumentative, Steve, I'm just trying to drill down as to WHY you think of beer when you think of Ireland, and why you are so dismissive of Italian beer. My feeling is that you don't know much about Italian micros, and have unwittingly fallen victim to the marketing put out by Guinness over many decades.

You say that most people think of Ireland when they think of stout - well that's because of Guinness marketing! You wouldn't go around accepting the marketing put out by A-B about Budweiser at face value would you? I don't think you or anyone else would accept it's the "king of beers" or that "no other beer costs more to make".

You say that porter and stout nearly died out in the UK - that is an oft-quoted "fact" but beer historian Ron Pattinson has evidence to the contrary.

I don't drink brands and marketing, I drink beer. I am interested in the history of beer and want to challenge these misconceptions.

I remain unconvinced that Ireland is anything other than a mediocre country for beer. I don't count mass produced stouts and lagers available in bars around the world as interesting beers, and none of the surprisingly few Irish micros has particularly impressed me to date.

I don't understand why the discerning attitude American beer lovers apply to their own beers and those from other countries is suspended when dealing with Ireland. I've even heard Guinness described as a microbrew, and when I pointed out this was ridiculous people accused me of being unfair!

[steveh]

Last I looked in my dictionary, interesting wasn't synonymous with good! ;)

But yes, I like Guinness and have even been recently enjoying the Murphy's Red (no really), and I don't disagree that Guinness is a macrobrewery. Macro isn't synonymous with bad either.

More on more later, but the work day is upon me.

S.

[Stonch]

You're right "macro" doesn't mean "bad".

Guinness and Murphy's do, on the other hand! :D

Here's a very vitriolic article about the history of the Guinness family and brewery - not sure I like the tone, but it's worth a read if you are interested in the subject: http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Aug2003/dunne0803.html

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh
Last I looked in my dictionary, interesting wasn't synonymous with good!

What an.... interesting comment, Steve... ;)

Bring me a whole mess o' Potamian nectar, then...

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
You're right "macro" doesn't mean "bad".

Guinness and Murphy's do, on the other hand!

Can't say I agree. While not the best examples of the styles to be found, certainly not the worst by any means and good fall back beers in a pinch. More to the "marketing" side of all that to come.

And Fret, I've often called Gueuze "interesting," never thought it to be "good," though many have over, what? Centuries? :confused:

S.

[Stonch]

I'd agree Draught Guinness makes a reasonable "fall back" beer, but refuse to go any further! Bottled Guinness Original (i.e. without the "widget") isn't too bad, and the Belgian and various Foreign Extra variants are a totally different ball park. Solid beers.

My only experience of Murphy's since childhood has been a can of it on train. I really did think it was dreadful.

Seriously, I do sometimes drink it if there's nothing else but bad lager or keg bitter available. I'd even drink it in preference to a poor quality cask ale, such as Courage or anything from Greene King.

__________________
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STONCH'S BEER BLOG

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
My only experience of Murphy's since childhood has been a can of it on train. I really did think it was dreadful.

Well that's certainly no experience at all!

Any good restaurant reviewer will visit an establishment at least twice, three times being better. Find a good spot with draught Murphy's, I predict you'll find it better than Guinness -- based on your previous thoughts.

S.

[MeridianFC]

FWIW of the mega dry Irish stouts, I rate Beamish the highest followed by Guinness with Murphy's last.

Quality issues aside I think of Ireland as a beer & whiskey country. Ireland is punching a bit below it's weight as far a quality compared to quantity ingested. That said some tasty brews have come out of the wee island, notably Biddy Early and the Porterhouse beers. Dublin Brewing Co. was good (though maybe not great) while it lasted. Mssrs. McGuires make passable pints. The Carlow brews are ok, though given Steve's high rating I need to go back and visit them. Fanciscan Well are regarded pretty highly though I'm not familiar myself.

For good or ill I think of wine (and grappa) when I think of Italy. Most of the mast produced beers from there I think are bland to bad. Somd of the micros I've encountered have been good, notably Baladin, though it's cost is very dear over here.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
I don't mean to be argumentative, Steve, I'm just trying to drill down as to WHY you think of beer when you think of Ireland, and why you are so dismissive of Italian beer.

No argument here, just debate. You're missing my point - what I'm saying is that when I think of a drink-of-Ireland, I think beer - Stout in particular. Probably followed by whiskey.

When I think of a drink-of-Italy, I think wine, but not to the dismissal of their beer -- don't get me wrong on that. I like good beer, no matter where it's brewed. And I think most people don't think of Italy as a beer-drinking country, as they would Ireland or Germany.

My feeling is that you don't know much about Italian micros,

No, I don't know much of Italian micros/brew-pubs -- only the info you pointed out at your blog, and it looks like that pub is brewing English-style beers -- albeit maybe good English ales, but I wouldn't think of traveling to Italy for English ale (and I'm not sure why you needed to). I can actually travel mere miles from where I sit to sample English and English-style ales -- pub-brewed and imported, cask-conditioned and otherwise.

and have unwittingly fallen victim to the marketing put out by Guinness over many decades.

Not a chance, I work in marketing - I'm immune to the effects. ;)

You say that most people think of Ireland when they think of stout - well that's because of Guinness marketing!

You forget, I've been to Ireland twice -- saw and drank a lot of Stout -- macro and micro-brewed. Spent a good hour discussing the downfall and virtue of good Irish Stout with Shamus O'Hara -- sooner devour that sort of marketing than "Guinness is Good For You," though I enjoy the graphic design.

You say that porter and stout nearly died out in the UK - that is an oft-quoted "fact" but beer historian Ron Pattinson has evidence to the contrary.

I'd love to read it, have a link?

I don't drink brands and marketing, I drink beer. I am interested in the history of beer and want to challenge these misconceptions.

Same here, I base my findings on my own samplings and enjoying my travels.

I remain unconvinced that Ireland is anything other than a mediocre country for beer.

Sometimes it's not just about the beer. I've had quite a bit of beer in my years -- from mediocre to extreme and back again. I've enjoyed a great pint of Guinness in Dublin and a great pint of Chocolate Stout in Newport, Oregon (and a wonderful pint of Young's Oatmeal in London).

As you said, you don't drink labels or brands -- try stepping back from searching out so much that is supposed to be interesting and look for what's interesting where you'd least expect it.

What was your favorite beer before drinking more "unusual" pints? I used to drink a lot of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale back in the early 90s - then I burned out on APA. Started looking into other styles and stayed away from anything from the US labeled as "Pale Ale.' Then I decided to try a bottle of the SNPA after almost 10 years - wow. It really is a great brew; sublime yet characterful - but not in-your-face as so many brews eveolved. Sometimes goodness is right in front of your nose.

And I'd no sooner compare Guinness to A-B Budweiser than I would Pilsner-Urquell to Miller Lite (a true Pilsner beer - talk about marketing BS).

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
That said some tasty brews have come out of the wee island, notably Biddy Early and the Porterhouse beers...The Carlow brews are ok, though given Steve's high rating I need to go back and visit them.

I've heard nothing but good reviews on the Porterhouse from people who have visited - not sure how their "exports" travel, but the beers I've had on premise have been very good.

AFA Carlow, I still haven't gotten into that wheat they make, but I love the Stout - draught and bottle.

S.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh

And Fret, I've often called Gueuze "interesting," never thought it to be "good," though many have over, what? Centuries? :confused:

S. I prefer girls to Gueuze myself....

[steveh]

Fret -- put the bottle down, step away, go lie down before you do any harm. :p

S.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by steveh
Fret -- put the bottle down, step away, go lie down before you do any harm.
What? Yer more INNERESTIN like thish.... :p

[Stonch]

Maybe this makes me a beer snob, but discussing the pros and cons of one macrobrew versus another (i.e Guinness v. Murphy's) isn't really my bag!

The fact that people don't think of Italy when they think of beer is understandable. But popular perception is way behind reality. I urge you all to finbd out about the great artisanal beers in Italy. I think you'll change your view if you do. The problem, of course, is that generally they aren't available in the USA, and it's the USA that dominated the internet beer scene.

As for Ireland - still unconvinced that there's anything terribly interesting coming out of there. As far as I can see, there are counties in England and postage stamp areas of Belgium that produce a greater number of decent beers.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
I've heard nothing but good reviews on the Porterhouse from people who have visited - not sure how their "exports" travel, but the beers I've had on premise have been very good.
S.

It's all bland, nitrokeg nonsense. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've tried most fo their beers and haven't enjoyed a single one.

They do one cask ale, and it's completely uninteresting.

The Porterhouse doesn't feature in my London beer circuit. It's a tourist joint.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Stonch
It's all bland, nitrokeg nonsense. Sorry to be so dismissive but I've tried most fo their beers and haven't enjoyed a single one.

They do one cask ale, and it's completely uninteresting.

The Porterhouse doesn't feature in my London beer circuit. It's a tourist joint.

We're just going to have to disagree on that one. I think the An Brainblasta, Oyster Stout, and TSB are all excellent tipples. Probably because I've never been to the Londinium location I've never sampled the one cask they do.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stonch

The fact that people don't think of Italy when they think of beer is understandable. But popular perception is way behind reality. I urge you all to finbd out about the great artisanal beers in Italy. I think you'll change your view if you do. The problem, of course, is that generally they aren't available in the USA, and it's the USA that dominated the internet beer scene.



This is changing. As I stated in an earlier post - news of craft brewed Italian beers has been all over the American internet site DC-Beer. Several folks have visited and commented on the growing craft beer scene in Italy. And there was plenty of interest and discussion.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by chazwicke
This is changing. As I stated in an earlier post - news of craft brewed Italian beers has been all over the American internet site DC-Beer. Several folks have visited and commented on the growing craft beer scene in Italy. And there was plenty of interest and discussion.

Good news!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Maybe this makes me a beer snob, but discussing the pros and cons of one macrobrew versus another (i.e Guinness v. Murphy's) isn't really my bag!

Too bad, because being a "beer snob" shouldn't keep you from enjoying something good, no matter where it's brewed.

I've yet to enjoy an A-B Bud in my years, don't care for the new Michelob they're brewing "all malt," but was rather surprised at the Bavarian style Hefeweizen they produced. In direct comparison, I enjoy a nice pint of Guinness at times, but agree that Harp is only a step better than swill.

My bottom line is that good beer is good beer, whether an in-your-face, characterful IIPA or a subtle cask Bitter or Munich Helles. "Interesting" doesn't have to be over-the-top.

You never answered a previous query Stonch, what was the first beer to make you stand up and take notice?

And Meridian - the Porterhouse's Oyster stout was pretty damned good, if I do say so -- without ever having the opportunity to sample an OS before.

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
You never answered a previous query Stonch, what was the first beer to make you stand up and take notice?

Well Steve, I've just had a think about that - and my answer is interesting to say the least. In all honesty (honesty being the best policy), when I first started drinking, I didn't go to places with cask ales. It was lager, fizzy cider or nitrokeg stout. So, in all honesty, the first beer I truly enjoyed was - DRAUGHT GUINNESS! So there is something to be said for it, I guess.

Having said that, these days I am aware of so many better beers, and drink in better places, and as a result I wouldn't touch Guinness except in certain circumstances (e.g. sports venues).

Now, if you were to ask what beer really got me excited as an adult: i'd say it was Czech dark lagers that made me into the beer lover I am today. I lived over there and developed a real taste for them.

I'd say my Guinness experience was just an adolescent crush, and dark beers from Bohemia were the first beers I went steady with. A series of Belgians then stole my heart, but it's British cask beers I want to settle down with.

That said, I sometimes feel myself tempted by brassy broads with an American accent ...

Cheers!

:D
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[MeridianFC]

C'est l'amour!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Having said that, these days I am aware of so many better beers, and drink in better places

Completely understandable, but every now and again it's nice to revisit an old favorite. I did that with the aforementioned Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

And to the Guinness being your springboard beer (just as I can remember my first Guinness Extra - before the Draught cans and before Draught Guinness was so readily available over here), I don't think anyone could say the same for an A-B Budweiser!

S.

[Stonch]

The fact you use SNPA as an example is interesting, and points to the reason why I don't rate Guinness as a basically good beer, but knowledgable folks like yourself and Lew do.

You see, to me SNPA is something I bring home with glee from the supermarket. Not to say it's my favourite beer (Guinness isn't yours), but I do like it, and when the Rake Bar in Borough has it on tap, I get excited. I suppose what I'm saying is rather cliched - familiarity breeds contempt. I've had access to Guinness everywhere I've gone since I started drinking as a teenager. I've had my fill of it. You've probably been overexposed to SNPA, and moved onto better things.

That said - maybe I just don't like nitrokeg stouts per se. I don't like the Sam Smith's Extra Stout, nor do I even like Dark Star Oatmeal Stout or Youngs Oatmeal Stout when they're given the nitro treatment.
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[MeridianFC]

Interesting points all. When I cast (what's left of) my mind back to the dark ages of my beer experience in this country and think of the beers I first had or made an impression on me there are some I think of fondly and many I will never put to my lips again.

Guinness is a tricky one. I think for many it was the first (or only) beer remotely of it's type that anyone encountered. It still has flavor and that flavor is not bad, say unlike Bud, Black Label, what have you.

SNPA is a great beer, one too often taken for granted IMO. If that had been one's first experience with good beer, one would have to count themselves lucky.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
You've probably been overexposed to SNPA, and moved onto better things.

In a way. It wasn't the SN so much as the glut of American Pale Ales that followed on SN's coat tails -- the market was flooded and turned me away from Pale Ale completely. Then I decided to make that revisit, after so many different styles aside from APA. Lo and behold - the SNPA was good again.

Just as you react with glee toward the SNPA, I react similarly when my local may have a nice Adnams on the hand pump -- and it happens.

or Youngs Oatmeal Stout when they're given the nitro treatment.

Gasp! Yeah, I'd say maybe it's nitro trouble -- that Young's is terrific stuff.

S.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Stonch
Having said that, these days I am aware of so many better beers, and drink in better places, and as a result I wouldn't touch Guinness except in certain circumstances (e.g. sports venues).So it seems that in your part of the globe, Guinness is to be found at just about every venue where beer is served. At this point in time, I'd bet you could find Guinness or a beer of similar roastiness in maybe one out of every five beer-serving establishments, and only one in 50 would have it on draft. The rest would have to scrounge for a bottle in the back of the fridge. That still leaves 80% of the venues serving harnwasser.

The sad part is that's one hell of an improvement. 20 years ago I would have guessed those numbers at 1 in 25 and 1 in 250, unless you were in a staunchly Irish or Deutsch neighborhood.

I'd say it's only been in the last 10 years that better beers have made it into our sports venues. For too long the choice in stadia was simple: one particular BMC brand and it's light cousin. I suppose I'm not gonna be able to work up a whole lot of sympathy for you.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
So it seems that in your part of the globe, Guinness is to be found at just about every venue where beer is served. At this point in time, I'd bet you could find Guinness or a beer of similar roastiness in maybe one out of every five beer-serving establishments, and only one in 50 would have it on draft.

Really? In NJ (which does not have a very big or active "good beer bar" culture at all) I can't remember the last time I was in a bar that DIDN'T have Guinness on tap- neighborhood bars, chain restaurants, local restaurants, etc. I'd say it's just as common as BMC-brands, Sam Adams and Yuengling- and more common than just about any other import, certainly more than Heineken, which was once the most common import found on tap. Bass was once commonly found along side it, but has been replaced by Smithwicks at many locations (I'm sure at the urging of Guinness' distributor).

[Lee]

Here in central California I never see Guinness on tap. Usually the good beer is SNPA. Guinness is the first "premium beer" that I had. It was the first beer that stood out from the American lagers. I find it interesting that I have never met anyone that didn't like Guinness, but it is unusual to find someone who likes Sierra Nevada or any other macro.
The first beer that I can actually remember drinking and saying "wow this is great" is Augsburger bock. I discovered it after they stopped making it. The local liquor store only had 2 six packs. I found 5 more at another store. I remember savoring every sip. As I think back this beer was probably only as good as Michelobe Amber Bock. But after drinking mostly BMC this was the nectar of the gods. Lee

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Lee
Here in central California I never see Guinness on tap. Usually the good beer is SNPA. Guinness is the first "premium beer" that I had. It was the first beer that stood out from the American lagers. I find it interesting that I have never met anyone that didn't like Guinness, but it is unusual to find someone who likes Sierra Nevada or any other macro.
The first beer that I can actually remember drinking and saying "wow this is great" is Augsburger bock. I discovered it after they stopped making it. The local liquor store only had 2 six packs. I found 5 more at another store. I remember savoring every sip. As I think back this beer was probably only as good as Michelobe Amber Bock. But after drinking mostly BMC this was the nectar of the gods. Lee

Maybe that's because, once you get past the point that it certainly doesn't look like a pale lager, Guinness is an unchallenging beer - I think the flavours are distinctly muted. Not so SNPA, which is bursting with hops in comparison to a "BMC" beer.

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[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Maybe that's because, once you get past the point that it certainly doesn't look like a pale lager, Guinness is an unchallenging beer - I think the flavours are distinctly muted.

Maybe muted to you now, but not to those that never drink anything but BMC or the like. And stand a Guinness (draught) up against an Old Speckled Hen cask draw or even a Blue Bird Bitter -- the two bitters are good, in the style they're supposed to be, but far less characterful than a Guinness.

Not so SNPA, which is bursting with hops in comparison to a "BMC" beer.

Compared to BMC, yes. But not compared to a lot of the brews available in the States today. SNPA is actually pretty tame -- although very well balanced and tasty. Not in-your-face for the sake of being "extreme." Although, I can remember when SNPA was the cutting edge of extreme, so maybe that's what you're experiencing in the UK right now (though many more UK brewers are experimenting with US hops these days).

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Lee
Augsburger bock. I discovered it after they stopped making it.

Augsburger is still around, brewed by the Point Brewery in Stevens Point, WI. Though I'm not sure how wide distribution is. You'd have liked Berghoff Bock too, both were brewed by the Huber Brewery at one time, may even have been the same brew. The Berghoff Restaurant may be gone from Chicago now, but Huber still brews the beer and it's pretty tasty these days -- not Amber Bock league at all.

S.

[noby]

A bit of a late arriver to this debate. Some interesting reading over the last few pages.
For what it's worth, while we may be known as a beer drinking nation, I would have to agree with Stonch, we're still strictly second division when it comes to our beers. Our market is still dominated by Diageo products.

Where I have to disagree with you is on the quality of beers we produce. I do like Guinness (bottles, usually), but would prefer Murphy's on draught. Porterhouse's TSB might not offer much in a world of cask beers, but I think it's a fine drink, and their other beers offer the full range from steady, if a little 'unspectacular' lagers and stouts to the likes of their Oyster stout, and some of their specials.

Carlow make a fine stout, and at a recent beer festival in Cork had a cask stout that was top notch. Shame it was only available for the festival.
A new Galway brewery is making steady progress with it's APA style beer.

Kinsale's range has increased to include some good beers, by all accounts.
More and more micro beers are appearing in pubs, the last stronghold of the big boys, and the brewhouse series is seen as a reaction to the growth of these micros.
We may never be up there with the Belgians/Germans/English etc. but at least we're heading in the right direction.

[steveh]

Wondered where you'd been Noby!

Thanks for confirming the Porterhouse goodness. AFA Carlow's cask stout, who knows? With enough success in experimentation and customer enthusiasm, old-fashioned stout may find its way back to Ireland! Go Shamus!!

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
Wondered where you'd been Noby!

Thanks for confirming the Porterhouse goodness. AFA Carlow's cask stout, who knows? With enough success in experimentation and customer enthusiasm, old-fashioned stout may find its way back to Ireland! Go Shamus!!

S.

The Irish should look to England for inspiration on stout - after all that's where they got it from in the first place. :D

[noby]

Originally posted by steveh
Wondered where you'd been Noby!


I'm here less often, but still try to keep an eye on the place.
We have a new home now: www.irishcraftbrewer.com , which Séan (guildofevil) was involved in setting up.

I love your optimism about cask, Steve, but unfortunately we're a bit away from that day yet. You can still count on one hand the amount of pubs with cask beer (excluding the North).

[Stonch]

It's astonishing that cask isn't more widespread in Ireland. When did it die out? 60s and 70s?

[noby]

I guess, although it's a little before my time, it can be traced back to the '60s, when Guinness introduced the nitro mix. That was supposed to replicate the smoothness of cask stout, while offering the convenience of keg.
This, and the dominatoin of the market that they held (and still do), wiped out cask from the country almost overnight.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by noby
I guess, although it's a little before my time, it can be traced back to the '60s, when Guinness introduced the nitro mix. That was supposed to replicate the smoothness of cask stout, while offering the convenience of keg.
This, and the dominatoin of the market that they held (and still do), wiped out cask from the country almost overnight.

That's in line with what I understood.

I'm always saying this: I'm not aware of another brewer in the world that has done more harm to its local beer culture than Guinness. Imagine A-B, Molson Coors, S&N, Inbev, Greede King and all the other nasties rolled into one and you're half way there.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Stonch
I'm always saying this: I'm not aware of another brewer in the world that has done more harm to its local beer culture than Guinness. Imagine A-B, Molson Coors, S&N, Inbev, Greede King and all the other nasties rolled into one and you're half way there. The prime brand of the "evil empire" Diageo you describe lands on these shores and becomes the"gateway beer" that opens the eyes of so many who have never ventured beyond A-B, Miller, and Coors (OK, maybe a few Molsons or Heinekens).

I don't think you have any idea how badly the US corporate triple-team has harmed the local beer culture here. Twenty years ago I found Guinness enlightening, not pallid.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
I don't think you have any idea how badly the US corporate triple-team has harmed the local beer culture here.

I am aware of that, just as I'm aware that Guinness/Diageo has done it all by itself in Ireland.

[Mill Rat]

If Guinness/Diageo had done to Irish beer what BMC did to American brews, you could see through Guinness and not be able to taste it. And instead of marketing Smithwicks, there'd be an even paler swill called Guinness Light. The moaning I've been hearing about the inroads that the US macro-brewed harnwasser into the ranks of younger Irish (and English) consumers has me worried that you may yet get to experience the full blunt trauma of their depradations. May you be spared this fate.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
If Guinness/Diageo had done to Irish beer what BMC did to American brews, you could see through Guinness and not be able to taste it. And instead of marketing Smithwicks, there'd be an even paler swill called Guinness Light. The moaning I've been hearing about the inroads that the US macro-brewed harnwasser into the ranks of younger Irish (and English) consumers has me worried that you may yet get to experience the full blunt trauma of their depradations. May you be spared this fate.

That onslaught happened many years ago, and thankfully the tide receded years go. When I was a kid - Coors and Bud taps started popping up everywhere. For years now, the BMC beers are much rarer in the UK. Indeed, A-B in the UK had a VERY bad year for profits last year.

[noby]

Bud is brewed under licence by Guinness, so is as widespread as Guinness.
Mill Rat, although you can't see through it, a lot of drinkers comment on the dumbing down of the pint. And there have been several attempts to market Guinness Light (the latest being 'mid-strength'), which thankfully all failed.
We're lucky I guess that the dominant brewer on our small island brews a drinkable beer, but they use their strength to influence what publicans stock, thus holding back the microbrewers of the country. In the past they would just buy them out.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stonch
Indeed, A-B in the UK had a VERY bad year for profits last year.

The horrible thing I've noticed on my recent trips to the UK is that many younger folks are drinking fizzy lagers. I think Richard said that Bud was a big seller in the lager catagory. My son and I were at a pub in Scotland and they had Staropramen on tap. For grins he ordered one because he had never had one before. It was disgusting. Neither of us liked it and it was not even half way finished. He went back to real ale and never strayed from it again on that trip. I had previously had bottled Staropramen in Hungary many years ago. It was offered by the host. I recall it being drinkable back then. (It was probably around 1991 or so.) It was absolutely terrible at that pub. Maybe because the Caledonian 80 Shilling was soo good.;)

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Stonch
That onslaught happened many years ago, and thankfully the tide receded years go. When I was a kid - Coors and Bud taps started popping up everywhere. For years now, the BMC beers are much rarer in the UK. Indeed, A-B in the UK had a VERY bad year for profits last year.

Ireland has become more economically healthy in the past decade or so. With that comes more purchasing power, and with that comes increased consumer marketing. No doubt BMC rushed in to capture market share in an English speaking country. The last time i visited Dublin was quite some years ago (late 90's) but I was aghast to find my host swilling none other than the Silver Bullet.

re: Guinness - "Muted" is a good descriptor. In the states it strikes me as a bit watery, too.

If people are drinking less BMC in the UK now, what are they drinking instead?

[ratman03]

One thing that I was happy to see a couple years back was the failure of the "fast-pour" market trial they were doing with Guinness in the UK; basically it poured a poured a pint in 4 seconds or something. That gave me hope.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by ratman03
Ireland has become more economically healthy in the past decade or so. With that comes more purchasing power, and with that comes increased consumer marketing. No doubt BMC rushed in to capture market share in an English speaking country. The last time i visited Dublin was quite some years ago (late 90's) but I was aghast to find my host swilling none other than the Silver Bullet.

re: Guinness - "Muted" is a good descriptor. In the states it strikes me as a bit watery, too.

If people are drinking less BMC in the UK now, what are they drinking instead?

"BMC" has never been that big in Britain - all I meant is that they have a smaller market share than they used to when I was young, not that it's ever been dominant. I do have to caveat that by saying I'm basing it purely on observation, by the way.

The majority of top selling beers over here are, and have been for some time, British-brewed lagers (albeit many are foreign brands brewed under license (e.g. Stella Artois)). Budweiser, Miller and Coors are not very widespread in the UK, although you do see bottled Bud in many low-end pubs. We're perfectly capable of brewing our own swill.

One thing you must remember is that British beer culture is very different to the US. In Britain we have an unbroken connection to our brewing past. True, there were dark days in the 60s and 70s when brewers of keg bitters and lagers almost drove cask ale to extinction, but they never succeeded.

Although it's true that the majority of beer sales over here are of poor quality lagers, I do believe our cask ale sector alone is larger than the entire craft beer portion of the US market.

It's all relative - when British beer lovers bemoan the tendency of less enlightened souls to drink stuff we don't like, it doesnt equate to the US market. My understanding of the US is that a very few brewers producing great quantities of utterly tasteless lager utterly dominate - though gradually changing for the better and turning out some world-class beers along the way.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Stonch

Although it's true that the majority of beer sales over here are of poor quality lagers, I do believe our cask ale sector alone is larger than the entire craft beer portion of the US market.



Not that statistics are going to work cleanly in this situation but I just decided to look to see what I could find.

2004 UK cask brewing production = 4.8m hectolitres*
2006 US craft brewing production = 7.8m hectolitres**

*http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/ukstatsn.htm
**http://www.beertown.org/craftbrewing/statistics.html

I used 1 barrel = 1.17hL to convert.

The total brewing numbers and populations come in to play when trying to figure out how badly beer choice is diminished in either jurisdiction. If the UK is brewing 4.8m hL of cask (which in general I equate with quality) for 60m people that's a bit better than brewing 7.8m hL of US craft (which I also equate with quality) for 298m folks. At least to me.

Apropros of nothing other than my experience I saw BMC, alcopops, crap keg lager, etc. pretty much everywhere I went in the UK and Eire last time I was there. That said I did not struggle to find cask/quality ale either. Granted most of my time was spent in larger urban centers and I'm the type that goes where one is most likely to find adequate drinkage.

As a gross generalization I'd say it's much easier to find good beer in the UK (if you like cask) than in the US. That said there are certainly areas in the US that stomp all over areas in the UK as far aas choice/quality. I'd say there's greater variety here, though again it depends where you are. Someone in Portland (either one) is in much different situation beerwise than someone in Iowa. It's hard to do an apples to apples comparision.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
If the UK is brewing 4.8m hL of cask (which in general I equate with quality) for 60m people that's a bit better than brewing 7.8m hL of US craft (which I also equate with quality) for 298m folks. At least to me.

Me too. And, indeed, it's a lot better - that means that, per capita, the UK produces more than three times the amount of cask ale alone (doesn't include bottles and those rare quality UK keg beers) than the entire craft beer sector produces in the USA. Like for like, the figure might be as much as five times as much.

By the way, you also said you saw "BMC" pretty much everywhere in urban centres. I couldn't name a single pub in my area - Central London - that serves Miller or Coors. Budweiser is available in bottles in many low end pubs and even a few decent ones, though never on tap. We have our own poor quality lagers.

[noby]

Originally posted by ratman03
Ireland has become more economically healthy in the past decade or so. With that comes more purchasing power, and with that comes increased consumer marketing. No doubt BMC rushed in to capture market share in an English speaking country. The last time i visited Dublin was quite some years ago (late 90's) but I was aghast to find my host swilling none other than the Silver Bullet.


I think you have a good point here. With the Celtic Tiger came more spending power, and people can choose to be more particular with their beers. This (one of the factors, anyway) has seen a boom in off-licence sales, and in the variety of drinks offered in these off-licences. These good beers are now starting to find their way into pubs, albeit more gradually. You'll still see a lot of BMC/Heineken/Carlsberg being drank here, though. Bud Budvar Budweiser, Erdinger etc. are seen more and more pubs these days.
As I keep saying, we have a long way to go, but we're heading in the right direction.

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
The horrible thing I've noticed on my recent trips to the UK is that many younger folks are drinking fizzy lagers.

It's been a trend for years. In the early 90s I spent a long evening drinking good German lager with 4 or 5 young Londoners in a Munich hotel bar. They told me that they drink nothing but "loight Lagah." I argued the goodness of cask ale and the variety they had available out their own front doors, but they would have nothing to do with it.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
By the way, you also said you saw "BMC" pretty much everywhere in urban centres. I couldn't name a single pub in my area - Central London - that serves Miller or Coors.

At the Black Friar (near the tube stop of the same name, I believe) Coors "Silver Bullet" was the big new thing when I visited London in the late 90s. Maybe it's gone by the wayside since, but the young folk were snapping it up like it was goin' out of style. Blech.

There were also trucks emblazoned with "Rolling Rock" on many London streets.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
If the UK is brewing 4.8m hL of cask (which in general I equate with quality) for 60m people that's a bit better than brewing 7.8m hL of US craft (which I also equate with quality) for 298m folks. At least to me.


But the point missed is that England has always had good beer available and are now just having swill invade their happy locals. In the US it's been the other way around. Hopefully the youth in England won't bring the quality beer consumption down and the stats of the 2 countries don't pass each other going in opposite directions!

S.

[chazwicke]

I've seen bud bottles in many pubs in the UK. In Scotland recently I was suprised to see Miller in several places . It makes me sick to see these brews in good pubs. I think the British youth are drinking more lager and I also thinK that packaged beer is gaining popularity and thus may effect the pubs in a negative way. The youth need to be educated or real ale will see a decline again as well.

BTW Steve - Blackfriars is a nice pub. I love the stamped copper ceilings.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
But the point missed is that England has always had good beer available and are now just having swill invade their happy locals. In the US it's been the other way around. Hopefully the youth in England won't bring the quality beer consumption down and the stats of the 2 countries don't pass each other going in opposite directions!

S.

Very good point. I think there are many locations in the great brewing centers of Europe that have an embarrasment of riches but many, the youth in particular, in the drinking sector don't realize it what with familiarity breeding contempt or at least complacency.

"You don't miss your water till your well runs dry"

[BathroomBrew]

i know i'm pulling my weight, I've brewed 12 5 gallons batches since January. And i only started homebrewing this year.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
But the point missed is that England has always had good beer available and are now just having swill invade their happy locals. In the US it's been the other way around. Hopefully the youth in England won't bring the quality beer consumption down and the stats of the 2 countries don't pass each other going in opposite directions!

S.

Not quite true - the swill started in the 30s with Watneys Red Barrel, and by the 60s piss lager was very common. In the 70s and 80s things reached a nadir, with real ale making a major comeback since then. Bad beer is, if anything, on the retreat here. It still dominates the market, and probably always will, just not the extent the US has witnessed.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I've seen bud bottles in many pubs in the UK. In Scotland recently I was suprised to see Miller in several places . It makes me sick to see these brews in good pubs. I think the British youth are drinking more lager and I also thinK that packaged beer is gaining popularity and thus may effect the pubs in a negative way. The youth need to be educated or real ale will see a decline again as well.

BTW Steve - Blackfriars is a nice pub. I love the stamped copper ceilings.

Young people in the UK today probably drink less lager than they did in, say, the 80s. Since then mixed drinks have risen in popularity, and alcopops have taken a chunk out of the market.

There is not a trend toward bad beer in Britain. It's just that bad beer dominates the market and has for decades (again, just not as much as it does/has in the US).

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Bad beer is, if anything, on the retreat here. It still dominates the market, and probably always will,

Sounds sort of contradictory. It shouldn't be dominant for long if it's on the retreat -- of which I sincerely hope it is!

S.

[fretlessman71]

Wow - I used to like Watney's Red Barrel when I was, say, 18 or so. Much preferred it to the Coors being passed around the bandhouse. As a matter of fact, it might have been one of the beers I first learned to appreciate for its flavor (I know, I know, Stonch, but we all had to start somewhere!)

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Wow - I used to like Watney's Red Barrel when I was, say, 18 or so. Much preferred it to the Coors being passed around the bandhouse.

I was gonna say the same, but for me that was over 20 years ago -- I'm sure the Red Barrel has probably changed since then. But it points out one of the steps to micros here in the States in that the imports were far better than the swill being marketed to us!

S.

[MeridianFC]

I think I've remarked elsewhere I used to get WRB for $.99 litre (yes it came in a plastic litre bottle). Thought it a treat at the time (mid 80s). I suppose it's like many things that I liked at the time and can't drink now (Rolling Rock, Courage, Bass, etc.)

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
Sounds sort of contradictory. It shouldn't be dominant for long if it's on the retreat -- of which I sincerely hope it is!

S.

What I mean is that bad beer will always be dominant, but the situation is getting slightly better, rather than slightly worse.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Wow - I used to like Watney's Red Barrel when I was, say, 18 or so. Much preferred it to the Coors being passed around the bandhouse. As a matter of fact, it might have been one of the beers I first learned to appreciate for its flavor (I know, I know, Stonch, but we all had to start somewhere!)

Different beer with the same name, I think. The Watney's Red Barrel I am talking about is not the same as the North American stuff.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Different beer with the same name, I think. The Watney's Red Barrel I am talking about is not the same as the North American stuff.

I'm pretty sure the stuff I used to get was imported from the UK -- back when. Can't seem to find any info on a modern-day version. Looks like it's been "retired" by Sleeman:
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/watneys-red-barrel/4163/

And their info reads: "If anyone has rated Watney's Red Barrel in the past 30 years it would be the Sleeman lager rather than the British keg beer."

But I'm pretty sure what I sampled wasn't a lager. Then again, it was definitely a long time ago...

S.

[MeridianFC]

I haven't had it since the mid 80s but as I recall the bottles were imported from England.

[steveh]

Hmm, "...under the supervision..."

http://www.beerlabels.com/labels/labels.pl/2565/watneys-red-barrel-beer.html

S.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/watneys-red-barrel/4163/

And their info reads: "If anyone has rated Watney's Red Barrel in the past 30 years it would be the Sleeman lager rather than the British keg beer."



"30 years"? Sleeman's only re-opened in 1988 (re-opened, re-started, re-born- whatever you wanna call it).

I remember a UK-brewed Red Barrel imported to the US- mostly because it was the only beer I ever saw that warned of "sulfites" on the label.

Also, checking some late 70's-early 80's US beer books (Gourmet Guide, Taster' Guide and Great American Beer Book) and all 3 mention WRB as coming from the UK for the US market - AND (much to the distress of our UK friends, no doubt) two gave it high marks- 4 stars ( out of 5), 6 mugs (out of 7) "excellent" - only the GABB rated in "29" (out of 100). That book also notes that the beer was coming from the Mortlake Brewery in London at the time.

I'd forgotten about another Watney's export- Stingo- I used to like that stuff- similar to Old Peculier IIRC.

[Stonch]

Watney's Red Barrel is notorious in the UK for being the first keg bitter, and a truly dreadful beer. Before my time so I can't comment. ;)

My avatar is of one of the few remaining Watney's branded taps - it now dispenses Carlsberg in a St Albans pub.

http://www.retrowow.co.uk/retro_britain/keg_bitter/watneys_red_barrel.html

The Mortlake Brewery is now where they brew the American Bud for the UK market.

[fretlessman71]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I think I've remarked elsewhere I used to get WRB for $.99 litre (yes it came in a plastic litre bottle). Thought it a treat at the time (mid 80s). I suppose it's like many things that I liked at the time and can't drink now (Rolling Rock, Courage, Bass, etc.) I remember seeing RamRod Ale in litre bottles - dark amber in color. I had friends who swore by it. And they were indeed drinking for taste at the tender age of 21 - God bless 'em! :D

[steveh]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
I remember seeing RamRod Ale in litre bottles

Plastic liter bottles, no less. Don't set it next to the Diet Pepsi in the fridge and go for a quick sip late at night! ;)

S.

[chazwicke]

Abbot Ale came in those bottles too. In the Mid 80s.

While I think the Abbot Ale is a decent brew on cask ( Don't really care for thier other offerings) I'm not happy with Greene King at all and feel like boycotting their products. They keep aquiring and shutting other breweries.:mad:

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Stonch
Richard - I'd disagree on one point.

Personally, I think Italy is a more interesting country for brewing than Ireland right now. If you don't believe me, I'd invite you to first take a look at the results of a recent beer hunting trip undertaken by yours truly in Rome (http://stonch.blogspot.com/search/label/Birra%20in%20Roma).

Then, consider how many genuinely good brewers are operational in Ireland. The market is obscenely dominated by the likes of Guinness, Harp, American Budweiser and Carlsberg. As for the smaller brewers, most of them aren't very good at all (Porterhouse being a prominent example).

I'd be interested to read a spirited defence of Irish brewing, and hope this provokes one!

You will note that, in my original response, I wrote "... Not 100% accurate (Ireland is not as good a country as is the UK for beer quality and variety)..."

Ireland's brewing industry is dominated by Guinness much as Italy's is dominated by the manufacturers or the likes of Peronis and Nastro Azzuri. But I know which brew I'd prefer.

Cheers, Arthur.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Richard English
You will note that, in my original response, I wrote "... Not 100% accurate (Ireland is not as good a country as is the UK for beer quality and variety)..."

Ireland's brewing industry is dominated by Guinness much as Italy's is dominated by the manufacturers or the likes of Peronis and Nastro Azzuri. But I know which brew I'd prefer.

Cheers, Arthur.


I prefer Guinness to Peroni too. But I wasn't seeking to make comparisons between Ireland and Italy's bland macrobrews.

Your argument, if I understand you correctly, could be applied in such as a way as to say Thailand is a better country than the UK for beer: the most popular Thai beer (Singha) is better than the most popular British beer (Carling).

I think the Italian craft/micro brew scene is far more interesting than that in Ireland, from what I've seen, and I've heard nothing to challenge that view on this long thread. That's what I'm interested in.

[noby]

Forgive me Stonch, but it seems your mind is made up, and nothing I say will challenge your view.
Now I have zero experience of the Italian craft beer scene, of which you talk up so much, so I'm not going to claim that one is better than the other. That would be futile.

We are what we are, and I'm not going to go over the same 'excuses' (small island, large macro dominating the market etc.), but I can, as I'm sure I did about three pages ago put the case forward for Ireland.

Now in one swoop you dismissed the largest microbrewery as a whole. I, and others disagree with you. The Porterhouse produce ten different regular beers, along with several seasonals a year. Yes, they produce their Chiller, for the mass market lager drinkers, but they also affer a range of stouts from the Plain (how Guinness should be/used to be) to their complex Oyster Stout, and this year their 10% Imperial Stout for their tenth anniversary. That's not to mention the red, bitter, weiss etc.

I could go on, and mention the fine beers of the Franciscan Well in Cork, Biddy Early's in Clare, Carlow beers, Galway Hooker, Kinsale breweries output of four or five beers etc., but it'll have to wait for another day.

[noby]

Personally, I think Italy is a more interesting country for brewing than Ireland right now. If you don't believe me, I'd invite you to first take a look at the results of a recent beer hunting trip undertaken by yours truly in Rome (http://stonch.blogspot.com/search/l...rra%20in%20Roma).

Sorry, forgot this bit. When you do get around to a beer hunting trip of Ireland, be sure to let us know, and we will point you in the right direction. Then you can put it up on your blog for all to see, instead of judging a country's craft brew scene based on a pub in Covent Garden.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by noby
Sorry, forgot this bit. When you do get around to a beer hunting trip of Ireland, be sure to let us know, and we will point you in the right direction. Then you can put it up on your blog for all to see, instead of judging a country's craft brew scene based on a pub in Covent Garden.

No need to get snippy ;) . Can I just remind you what I'm actually arguing here? I'm just contesting the notion that Ireland's a leading country for beer, because other people were saying it was.

I believe the fact it is seen as such is a popular misconception, and from what you have said yourself, I don't see how you can disagree. Remember, that's what this thread is about.

In your post three pages ago you mentioned three micobreweries: Porterhouse, Carlow and Kinsale. I don't like the majority of Porterhouse's beers, and therefore don't rate them as a brewer. Nothing closed-minded about that. Carlow are good but unspectacular. I've tried two of their beers and that's my judgement so far. Kinsale - haven't tried any of their stuff, can't comment. Now you've mentioned some more. I'm sure there's lots more going on that I don't know about, but you yourself admit the scene is limited.

Why are people so willing to close their eyes to what's going on in countries not traditionall associated with good beer, like Italy? It seems daft to me. If beer lovers had persisted in doing the same about USA, can you imagine what we'd all be missing out on now?

[noby]

It wasn't meant to be snippy, but a genuine offer. I have never been to Italy, so know little of a lot of things in that country, including their craft beer scene.
You have, evidently, and you're now boasting their fine offerings, which I have absolutely no problem with, or no reason to doubt. But when you say:
I think the Italian craft/micro brew scene is far more interesting than that in Ireland
I think I have the right to request that you give the Irish craft beer scene a fair go before you make such a comment.



I'm just contesting the notion that Ireland's a leading country for beer
And I never disagreed with this statement, or if I did, it was because I'm blindly biased ;) . We are not a leading beer country (beer drinking nation, maybe), but what we have is a 'solid' dominant beer, and a small but growing craft beer scene.

[Stonch]

Yes

It's true that the dominant beer in Ireland is at least a half decent one. As opposed to a terrible one.

In fact that was the point Richard was making, wasn't it?

Is Draught Guinness actually the best selling beer in Ireland, or does Harp sell more?

[noby]

I don't know the best selling beer in Ireland, I don't have those figures.
I would guess that Guinness is up there alright.
It's defnitely not Harp anyway. Even in the lager category it would be well outsold by Bud/Heineken/Carlsberg.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by noby
I don't know the best selling beer in Ireland, I don't have those figures.
I would guess that Guinness is up there alright.
It's defnitely not Harp anyway. Even in the lager category it would be well outsold by Bud/Heineken/Carlsberg. Without even checking I can tell you that Guinness Stout is far an away the most popular drink in Ireland. Harp lager is brewed by Guinness and so the two Guinness brands together pretty well dominate the Irish drinking scene.

Why Ireland scores so highly in the international drinking league (beating Britain) is anyone's guess - but I suspect that the relatively good quality of Guinness is part or the reason. But as was my point, the choice in Ireland is still far poorer than that in the other countries whose names appear at the top of that list - which is why I said the correlation is not perfect.

[noby]

Originally posted by Richard English
Without even checking I can tell you that Guinness Stout is far an away the most popular drink in Ireland. Harp lager is brewed by Guinness and so the two Guinness brands together pretty well dominate the Irish drinking scene.


As I said, I guess you're right about Guinness, but with no figures on hand to back it up, I was more cautious with my claim.
Richard (and Stonch), I don't know where you're getting the notion of Harp's popularity. It really isn't as popular these days. It may have a stronghold in Louth, near the brewery, but across the country there are a lot of more popular drinks. I would imagine (once again without any reference) Smithwicks out-sells Harp, and that's before we get into the lagers that Guinness brew under licence, or the ones brewed in Cork.

As for the league, what can I say - we like to drink. Is it something to boast about though? Personally I would take quality over quantity any day.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Richard English
Without even checking I can tell you that Guinness Stout is far an away the most popular drink in Ireland.

A bold claim!

[Stonch]

Originally posted by noby
As for the league, what can I say - we like to drink. Is it something to boast about though? Personally I would take quality over quantity any day.

Clearly then we agree on what matters.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Stonch
A bold claim! I haven't checked, as I said, but even though Guinness consumption is falling, due to the inroads being made by other brands and other drinks, I still believe it to be the most popular drink (I should have said alcoholic drink, or course) in Ireland.

[MeridianFC]

I'd prefer it if y'all would stop being so civil, it's doing terrible damage to our time honored stereotypes of Anglo/Irish relations.

As far as the level of qaulity choice in Ireland, you'd have to say their punching above their weight given the population (I know noby said to not make that excuse) but for a wee bit over 3m folks it's not bad. That said for the amount going down the gullet it could certainly be better.

BTW Biddy Early is very good (and they make a real ale), though I was uncertain of their status with the death of the owner a while back.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I'd prefer it if y'all would stop being so civil, it's doing terrible damage to our time honored stereotypes of Anglo/Irish relations.

As far as the level of qaulity choice in Ireland, you'd have to say their punching above their weight given the population (I know noby said to not make that excuse) but for a wee bit over 3m folks it's not bad. That said for the amount going down the gullet it could certainly be better.

BTW Biddy Early is very good (and they make a real ale), though I was uncertain of their status with the death of the owner a while back.

American perspectives on Anglo-Irish relations of course ignore the fact that a very large percentage of people in Britain are either partly or wholly Irish by descent...myself included.:D

No comment on whether they do punch above their weight, even if you do take population into account... well, OK, I do have a comment - I'd wager more good beer comes out of the county of Suffolk, which only has 669000 inhabitants. And don't even get me started on tiny areas of Belgium that offer more in terms of quality and choice ...

[noby]

Sorry. What was I thinking.
"Help,Help, I'm being oppressed!"

Our population broke 4M for the first time since the famine in the last census, so we need to start punching harder.

Biddy Early is going strong, despite the passing.
The Galway Hooker was brewed there first, before they got their own brewery up and running.
Actually the Galway Hooker, an "Irish Pale Ale", is a fine drink, along the lines of a certain APA, with plenty of cascade in it. Only going a year, but doing well, by all accounts. The first craft brewer in a long time not to produce a stout!

[Richard English]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I'd prefer it if y'all would stop being so civil, it's doing terrible damage to our time honored stereotypes of Anglo/Irish relations. In fact, most British and most Irish get on just fine together. Beer drinkers generally do. Just don't ask about that lot that lives just the other side of the English Channel, though;-)

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
...a very large percentage of people in Britain are either partly or wholly Irish by descent...myself included.

Retaking the island, one way or another. ;)

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
Retaking the island, one way or another.

S.

retaking? :confused:

[steveh]

You bet, long before the Romans & Anglo-Saxons screwed it up, who do you think lived there? ;)

S.

Keep in mind folks, this is all in fun and for entertainment purposes only, don't try this at home...

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
You bet, long before the Romans & Anglo-Saxons screwed it up, who do you think lived there? ;)

S.

Keep in mind folks, this is all in fun and for entertainment purposes only, don't try this at home...

Hee hee

Not sure that's quite true (though not sure it isn't true either). Their are different types of Celts, you know!

[fretlessman71]

KUMBAYA, MY LORD, KUMBAYA....

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Hee hee
Their are different types of Celts, you know!

We're all cut from the same cloth!

S.

[MeridianFC]

Knew I should've put the damned winky after my post.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So the Czech's down brew at the rate of almost 20 cases a year for every man women and child in the country? Talk about team work. Thats awfully impressive...
It's mostly the men. 5-10 .5L glasses in a session is moderate.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Sladek
It's mostly the men. 5-10 .5L glasses in a session is moderate.

The stuff goes down so damn easy. I remember when I lived there, we used to always do the first half litre in three gulps max. Only after about four do you slow down.

God I love Prague.

[noby]

Originally posted by Sladek
It's mostly the men. 5-10 .5L glasses in a session is moderate.

There's a big campaign (publicity stunt) going on here about the dangers of 'binge drinking' (we have an election coming up :rolleyes: ).
Apparantely five drinks in a sitting is binge dringing. I recommend you stand up after four - just to break the cycle.

[Stonch]

To challenge myself, I had a pint of Guinness last night. I haven't had a pint of it since I was last at Twickenham.

I can't abide that nitrokeg mouthfeel, and the strange, persistent head freaks me out - but, yes, there's some flavour there is you let it warm in the glass. I just don't like the way it reminds me of melted ice cream when you get near the bottom of the glass.

I would never choose it over a real stout or indeed a decent real ale, but where needs must...

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
...and the strange, persistent head freaks me out - I just don't like the way it reminds me of melted ice cream when you get near the bottom of the glass.

LOL!! You sure have some subliminal perception issues! ;)

S.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
LOL!! You sure have some subliminal perception issues! ;)

S.

What can I say? I'm a cask ale addict

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Stonch
I'm a cask ale addict

"You tried just the once
found it alright for kicks
but now you've found out
it's a habit that sticks....."

Oops wrong addiction. ;)

[Richard English]

Guinness is not my favourite beer but, given the choice between Dudweiser, Swiller and Curse (or any one of their clones) or Guinness there is, really, no great difficulty in making a decision.

Guinness for me every time.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
What can I say? I'm a cask ale addict

What has that to do with gettin' all squirley because something looks like ice cream? Hehehehehehe -- like ice cream's bad?

S.

Still laughin' -- hehehehehehehe

[Stonch]

Originally posted by steveh
What has that to do with gettin' all squirley because something looks like ice cream? Hehehehehehe -- like ice cream's bad?

S.

Still laughin' -- hehehehehehehe

Yes, when it's meant to be beer!!

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Richard English
Guinness is not my favourite beer but, given the choice between Dudweiser, Swiller and Curse (or any one of their clones) or Guinness there is, really, no great difficulty in making a decision.

Guinness for me every time.

But Richard, is there any pub in England where you only have a choice of Budweiser, Miller, Coors and Guinness? I can't name a single pub that sells Miller and Coors anyway - haven't seen them in the UK since the 1990s

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stonch
What can I say? I'm a cask ale addict

Me too. Hello, My name is Chazwicke and I'm a cask ale addict.
;)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stonch
But Richard, is there any pub in England where you only have a choice of Budweiser, Miller, Coors and Guinness? I can't name a single pub that sells Miller and Coors anyway - haven't seen them in the UK since the 1990s

I was distressed to see Miller in several pubs in Edinburgh last month. I had not seen it in the UK before.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Stonch
But Richard, is there any pub in England where you only have a choice of Budweiser, Miller, Coors and Guinness? I can't name a single pub that sells Miller and Coors anyway - haven't seen them in the UK since the 1990s I'm not talking about pubs in England, most of which will have cask beers. But I have been to hotels and bars (in England and all over the world) where the choice is just as I describe.

When I was in Oman the ONLY drinkable beer was canned Guinness. If you didn't care for Guinness then Dudweiser or some Eurofizz was all there was.

One reason why, in spite of my having travelled more than most, I have never found any country I would sooner live in than England.

Oh, and sadly all three of the apologies for beer I cited can readily be found in the right (or should that be wrong) pub.

[Stonch]

The Mark of Cain is on anyone who drink American Bud in a British pub. They're even beneath the Magner's drinkers.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stonch
Yes, when it's meant to be beer!!

But it IS beer. And why would ice cream be so unappealing? I can imagine so many things it could look like to turn you off -- just have a glance over to the poor sod sipping that Spudweiser....

S.

hehehehehehehehe

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Stonch
The Mark of Cain is on anyone who drink American Bud in a British pub.

Why would anyone do that?

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Stonch
The Mark of Cain is on anyone who drink American Bud in a British pub. They're even beneath the Magner's drinkers. But, sad to say, even though it is one of the most expensive brands, Dudweiser is now the best selling bottled beer in the UK.

Last night I was in The Victoria and was drinking Fuller's wonderful IPA at £2.90 a pint. One of our group wanted a lager and The Victoria sells real Budweiser along with the A-B imitation and I bought her a bottle of that. £3.15 for 330ml! A-B Dudweiser was cheaper at £3.10.

Imagine, £2.90 for 568 ml of the finest beer one could imagine or £3.10 for 330 ml of chemical fizz - it should be a no-brainer but, sad to say, the no-brains were all around me, glugging Dudweiser from the bottle. The Mark of Cain is too good for them.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by Richard English
But, sad to say, even though it is one of the most expensive brands, Dudweiser is now the best selling bottled beer in the UK.

Last night I was in The Victoria and was drinking Fuller's wonderful IPA at £2.90 a pint. One of our group wanted a lager and The Victoria sells real Budweiser along with the A-B imitation and I bought her a bottle of that. £3.15 for 330ml! A-B Dudweiser was cheaper at £3.10.

Imagine, £2.90 for 568 ml of the finest beer one could imagine or £3.10 for 330 ml of chemical fizz - it should be a no-brainer but, sad to say, the no-brains were all around me, glugging Dudweiser from the bottle. The Mark of Cain is too good for them.

There must be certain pubs, or certain parts of the country, where all anyone drinks is Bud to create that frightening statistic. I very rarely see any with a Bud in hand in my favoured haunts.

[noby]

Richard, I can take it to a more primitive level than that.
As you know Budweiser is widely available in Ireland (Thanks Diageo). In my home town you can buy a pint of lager (including Bud) for about €4.00. You can buy a 330mL bottle of the same stuff for about €4.30 or more. And what do people buy?
Fair enough if you're going to drink the stuff, but paying more to drink less 'from a bottle' must be a marketing man's dream come true.

[noby]

Originally posted by Stonch
There must be certain pubs, or certain parts of the country, where all anyone drinks is Bud to create that frightening statistic. I very rarely see any with a Bud in hand in my favoured haunts.

I think in my favoured haunts is the key here, as you have admitted yourself.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by noby
Richard, I can take it to a more primitive level than that.
As you know Budweiser is widely available in Ireland (Thanks Diageo). In my home town you can buy a pint of lager (including Bud) for about €4.00. You can buy a 330mL bottle of the same stuff for about €4.30 or more. And what do people buy?
Fair enough if you're going to drink the stuff, but paying more to drink less 'from a bottle' must be a marketing man's dream come true.

And even worse is the fact that many actually drink it from the bottle itself rather than pour it into a glass. What's this world coming to?!

[fretlessman71]

If a gun was placed to my head and I was ordered to drink a Bud, I'd do it from the bottle too. You smelled that stuff?

[stronk]

Well, let's look at the kind of person who would hold a gun to your head and order you to drink a beer. Odds are, they are not exactly your typical real ale enthusiasts. So my choice of words would be something like: 'Oh, yum: a Bud! Thank God you're not going to make me drink one of those warm flat ones the old men drink. They taste like horse-piss.'

I reckon you could get a few pints down before they realised something was up!

[Richard English]

In Chicago the week before last we visited a bar (the name escapes me as there were so many ;-) and someone ordered a round. A pint was placed in front of me and I asked what it was.

"It's something special", was the response and I took a look.

"It doesn't look like beer" I said and I took a sip. "It doesn't taste like beer" was my next utterance.

And indeed it didn't. There was a very slight taste of lemon on the palate but that was all. Once the chilly mouthful had gone there was zero finish and zero alcoholic affect. Indeed, it reminded me of the good time I once enjoyed with a lady friend on the Thames years ago. It was F****ing close to water.

I tried another mouthful and passed it to the others for comment. "It's fine", they all said and passed it back, making me begin to doubt the evidence of my eyes, nose and mouth, and making me take another sup.

"What is it?" I asked the barman. He remained silent and I took another mouthful. That was as unmemorable as the first so I pushed the glass away.

"I'm sorry," I said, "but that's not for me. Please tell me what it is so that I never, ever, order it".

At that the group and the barman dissolved in paroxysms of laughter and admitted I'd been set up. They had hoped that I would drink the offering and make complimentary remarks about it, not wishing to be rude. But I fear politeness did not overcome disgust.

I had just drunk my first, and I hope my last, Bud Light!

[dparsons]

I had just drunk my first, and I hope my last, Bud Light!

I note it was a prank that Bud Light was deemed appropriate for. Hopefully they made up for it afterwards since you passed the test.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by dparsons
I note it was a prank that Bud Light was deemed appropriate for. Hopefully they made up for it afterwards since you passed the test. Oh yes. I managed to sample some wonderful beers in both Chicago and later in Canada.

Sadly, as has so often been my experience in the USA, cask-conditioned beers were frequently unavailable, even in those places that supposedly prided themselves on their cask beer range.

Mac's had but one - which ran out as we were being served; Goose Island none. Flatlanders was the shining exception (see my posting elsewhere).

And in Canada I had to rely on bottled beers, apart from those I sampled at the Tin Whistle Brewery.

[Stonch]

After having this discussion about whether Ireland is a leading beer country, I did a bit of digging and have finally got around to writing this article:

DEBUNKING BEER MYTHS - STOUT IS IRISH AND EVOLVED FROM PORTER

http://stonch.blogspot.com/2007/05/debunking-beer-myths-1-stout-is-irish.html

[MeridianFC]

I don't know if it's just me, but I never heard or thought Stout (or Porter) were Irish inventions. FWIW neither was whiskey. I think the claim I've always heard is that the Irish took good things and made them better.

That said I can see why some might assume Stout is Irish given the hold the black stuff on the island.

As far as the second part (Stout evolved from Porter) I have thought that, it does seem natural after all, and in one of the Michael Jackson books (early editions of the "New World Guide" IIRC) he points out the Guinness Stout Porter thing.

[Stonch]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
As far as the second part (Stout evolved from Porter) I have thought that, it does seem natural after all, and in one of the Michael Jackson books (early editions of the "New World Guide" IIRC) he points out the Guinness Stout Porter thing.

Seems he was wrong then. I thought that too, and CAMRA says so on it's website. But actually it turns out that stout didn't evolve from porter. Funny old world.

As for the perception that stout is Irish, it's a common view I hear often, less so from people with a special interest in beer.

[dparsons]

I think the Irish are known for drinking more than creating (Stouts, Whiskeys, etc.).

[Stonch]

Very few people with a special interest in beer have fallen prey to this misconception, but in the UK I have heard it many times from others.