decoction mashing

[modenacart]

decoction mashing, is it worth the trouble?

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Originally posted by modenacart
decoction mashing, is it worth the trouble?

On certain styles yes. (mainly German)

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by modenacart
decoction mashing, is it worth the trouble?

for a certain flavor decoction seems to be the only way to go. I've read that you can get the same flavors by boiling your first runnings (probably for quite a while).

[steveh]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I've read that you can get the same flavors by boiling your first runnings.

Really? Interesting, especially since those first runnings are always so turbid.

S.

[barleyburps]

I used to do my own version of a decoction . I never bothered with the specifics of the ramp-up and holding at temperature for the decocted material. I would just pull some of the mash to a pan off the the side, heat to boil, then return to the remainder of the mash when I wanted to increase the entire temperature of the mash. I always do a 3 step mash at 144, 153, 162, then 172 to take to the lauter tun. My whole reasoning for doing it was to have an instantaneous heat to the next level, and therefore shave time off the brewday. Which it did- ~ 1/2 hour total. The character of my lagers (I wasn't producing ales back in those days) always came out as good or better than the nondecocted batchs (sweet and malty). Often they were hazier. The reason I stopped doing it was because many of the batches supported a head that was really extreme (as bad or worse than Duvel).

It's possible, the decoction wasn't causing the problems with the head, but once I stopped doing them, I stopped having the extreme heads.

[HogieWan]

maybe by your decoction, you were not getting full conversion - did you do iodine tests? unconverted starch would explain the haziness and the head

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by HogieWan
maybe by your decoction, you were not getting full conversion - did you do iodine tests? unconverted starch would explain the haziness and the head

Heh, he said "Extreme Head":D

[corkybstewart]

There's a thread on the morebeer.com forum about this. Some brewers made identical recipes, some decocted and some didn't, and the judges had no idea which were which. Apparently it isn't really all it's cracked up to be. I also read that England was going to ban decoction for commercial brewers due to excessive energy required and how little difference it made, but it never happened.
I've decocted once, on my dopplebock, but it's lagering and I have no idea if it made a difference. I do know I could see a real color change over the 45 minutes it boiled.

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
There's a thread on the morebeer.com forum about this. Some brewers made identical recipes, some decocted and some didn't, and the judges had no idea which were which. Apparently it isn't really all it's cracked up to be. I also read that England was going to ban decoction for commercial brewers due to excessive energy required and how little difference it made, but it never happened.
I've decocted once, on my dopplebock, but it's lagering and I have no idea if it made a difference. I do know I could see a real color change over the 45 minutes it boiled.

I avoid decocting by using Melanoidin malt, or for that matter any high-kilned malt like dark Munich. I also boil my first runnings in my Scotch ale but I do that to lead to a higher FG than add additional malt flavor -- already lots.

[MrNate]

What is decocting supposed to do, anyway?

[steveh]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Apparently it isn't really all it's cracked up to be.

Or maybe the home-brewed decoction processes weren't all they were cracked up to be. I can definitely taste the difference in a Spaten or Paulaner Helles or a Pilsner Urquell that are decoction mashed and a lager that isn't -- it's all in that melanoidin character that's drawn from the malts. You can find it very prevalent in a good Munich brewed Oktoberfest.

That's what it does, Nate - brings out a sweet maltiness that finishes dry so that it's lager-clean (no esters) and not cloying.

S.

[MrNate]

Huh... I think I will have to try brewing an Oktoberfest then. I always thought it was one of those outdated processes that modern barley strains and brewing techniques had rendered obsolete.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by steveh

That's what it does, Nate - brings out a sweet maltiness that finishes dry so that it's lager-clean (no esters) and not cloying.

S.
That's what I'm hoping for, that's why I did my decoction.
On morebeer.com that thread started a long drawn out argument and was very interesting reading the responses on both sides of the argument. I have no answers or opinions either way.
I've never had fresh Spaten or Urquell, and my last trip to Germany was in 1988,when I knew nothing at all about beer.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by steveh
Or maybe the home-brewed decoction processes weren't all they were cracked up to be. I can definitely taste the difference in a Spaten or Paulaner Helles or a Pilsner Urquell that are decoction mashed and a lager that isn't -- it's all in that melanoidin character that's drawn from the malts. You can find it very prevalent in a good Munich brewed Oktoberfest.

That's what it does, Nate - brings out a sweet maltiness that finishes dry so that it's lager-clean (no esters) and not cloying.

S.

And just because you haven't figured out the process very well is not a good reason to claim it doesn't do anything. A good Spaten or Paulaner will tell you that it does. I'm also sure the Germans like to keep a few secrets.

[steveh]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
I've never had fresh Spaten or Urquell, and my last trip to Germany was in 1988,when I knew nothing at all about beer.

No need to travel to Germany just to find melanoidin maltiness.

Start with a Spaten Oktoberfest -- or Hacker-Pschorr, as I've heard it's available year-round these days. The flavor is more prevalent in the style. After you can recognize it you'll be able to pick it up in the lighter Helles' and Pilsners.

Another method I've found that works well is to drink a bottle of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale before trying a Munich Helles (Spaten, Paulaner, et al). Having the hoppiness of the PA on your palate negates any hoppiness at all in the helles and accentuates the malts - believe it or not. I was surprised the first time it happened.

I've yet to try a beer that uses the newer melanoidin malt available, so I'm not sure if it results in the same character. But I do know that I've only had one or two US micro lagers that have successfully duplicated the character, and I'd bet it's due to decoction mashing.

S.

[HogieWan]

I've used the melanoidin malt, but it doesn't seem to have that same character

[steveh]

I've heard of similar results, makes me wonder why they're bothering to call it that.

S.

[Mad Scientist]

I've used ti too, and it adds a nice sweetness, but I have been suing it in IPAs...


Steveh, your avatar has that 'deer in the headlights' look to it...or maybe aliens on a deserted country road....

[steveh]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
Steveh, your avatar has that 'deer in the headlights' look to it...

Deer in the headlights? That usually implies fear -- Jack Bauer never shows fear!! ;)

S.

[sundontlie]

i knew thats what you were doing!

[MrNate]

Ok, another question for you decocters. Do you usually do a 2-step decoction or a 3 step? Let's say, for example, I were doing an Oktoberfest. What mashing procedure would you reccommend?

[steveh]

What I was doing?

S.

[HogieWan]

I'm going to brew something very similar to corky's wife beer in a couple batches, but I will boil the first couple gallons of thick runnings separate for the whole time I'm running the main boil to see if I get some okto-ish color and flavor.

[steveh]

Will you be using the Melanoidin malt?

S.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by steveh
Will you be using the Melanoidin malt?

S.

no - just base malt, with some of it toasted in my oven

[dparsons]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I'm going to brew something very similar to corky's wife beer in a couple batches, but I will boil the first couple gallons of thick runnings separate for the whole time I'm running the main boil to see if I get some okto-ish color and flavor.

Do you know if the more concentrated sugar makes a difference?

[toneyc]

Originally posted by steveh
What I was doing?

S.

Man, that happens to me all the time!

:eek:
Toney.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by dparsons
Do you know if the more concentrated sugar makes a difference?

that's why you get that flavor when decocting the mash - you have a very thick wort. However, with the mash, you have a good bit of the actual grain in there. I don't know if the grain affects the flavor, but that's what I want to test

[corkybstewart]

Once you sparge your sugars aren't extra concentrated anymore. I think the boiling gets other stuff out of the grain maybe even some tannins that change the flavor.

[Chubber]

I usually end up decocting most of my high gravity beers, but that is because of equipment issues. Ill do a quick decoct to raise a wheat mash from 122 to 150, then another from 150 to 165. It's just easier for me to do that than getting bigger equipment and adding hot water all of the time.

Keeping the mash thick enough seems to help my sparge.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by MrNate
Ok, another question for you decocters. Do you usually do a 2-step decoction or a 3 step? Let's say, for example, I were doing an Oktoberfest. What mashing procedure would you reccommend?

I think many of us passed over your question because we're still learning this ourselves. I don't have a ususal as far as decocting goes and haven't brewed an Octoberfest. I'm planning to brew a Dunkel in a batch or two and intend to do a double decoction mash. I'll find out how well it works.

[chapesh]

i actually did 3 APAs and tried single infusion, double infusion, and decoction. there was little difference in of the infusions, and a noticable difference of the decocted brew. i say try it yourself and see. when i decoct(?) i bring my mash up to temp and hold for 10 to 15 min and then check for conversion, then go from there,ultimately bringing to boil and holding for 20-30 min. i personally decoct certain brews. it brings out a certain maltyness.

[corkybstewart]

Do you decoct the whole mash, or just part of it? HGow do you prevent scorching on the kettle?

[takhsh]

Sorry guys,
I was very busy, in the past, and missed reading though my favorite beer forum.

I have spend a lot of my brewing time to develop understand and use the decoction method of mashing. I know that most people probably argue that there is difference whether one uses or not the decoction, that there is a lot of work not worth it, and so on and so forth.

However, I have spend 17 years in trying to make one particular beer kind (namely the FIX of the 50's brewed in Greece), and only after using decoction in mahcing I have succeded in creating that particular flavor.

I have stated a thread in this forum, some time ago (about a year ago), and this forum helped me to finalize my process. Here is my process.

I do a double decoction.
I do an infusion to get to 50 C. 20 quarts of 56 C water to 18 pounds of pilser. Rest for 20 minutes.
First decoction: R
emove almost half of the mash, with very little water in it, and bring it rather rapidly to 70 C, stirrig constantly. It is important to use a heavy bottom pot, otherwise it would scorch.
Let it stand for 10-15 minutes. (it was found that if this sacharization step is skipped, the beer turned sweet).
Then with low heat go to boiling and boil for 30 minutes.
Return the decoction into the main mash, stirr the hell out of it. The temperautre stabilizes to about 60 C. Rest for 20 minutes.

Let me make some notes:
Each time a decoction is removed from the main mash, most of the water must be left behind in the main mash. This water has the most of the enzymes to continue the mashing. You do not want to kill these enzymes, by boiling them.
When the decoction starts, the barley is difficult to turn, and it is pale. When 70 degrees are approaching, the balrey starts to get darken, and it is loose. In fact although I do have a very nice thermocouple temperature gauge, I can use these abservations, to infer the actual temperautre of hte decoction.
After boiling, the decoction is really loose and dark.
When the decoction is added to the main mash, since the color of the decoction is dark, one can use this fact to figure out when to stop stirring ( a painful process). Stop when the whole mash has a uniform color.
Second decoction:
Repeat the first decoction the same way.
When the second decoction is returned into the main mash, the temperature rises to about 67 C.

At that time, I turn full heat to the boiling pot (a 15 gallon converted keg), that has 10 gallons of water. In about 45 minutes, the water is boiling.
At this point I add enough water to bring the whole mash to 75 C. Give a good stirr, and let rest for 10 minutes, before start drawing. Recycle until clear. Then add the rest of the water which by this time its temperature has dropped to about low 85-90. (that is I do batch sparging).

This way I get consistetly about low 80 % efficiency. Although this was not my goal, this high efficiency came as a bonus.

I am doing this process for about one year now, with very similar results. The beer does have this dinstictive taste of the old FIX beer (Steinwar, seems to me shares the same flavor).