US 'imports' comming from Canada, not Europe.

[cattersley]

I was in the USA last summer, and just recently. I traveled last summer to NJ, and NY, and just last week to FL. I picked up some bottles (singles) for my collection, and just like last summer I was surprised at the number of beers to claim to be imported, but then looking at the labels to find that they were imported from Canada. The other funny thing is, these beers in Canada(Ontario) are acutally imported from there country of origin.

Here is what I found:

- Harp Lager, and Guiness are imported from Newbrunswick not Ireland. Here in Ontario we get both direct from Dublin, and there is a huge difference in taste.

- Foster's Lager, which is also brewed on licence so not direct from Australia is brewed in Toronto,Ontario by Molson, and also sent to the USA but advertised as 'Imported'.

- Blue Moon, a wheat beer owned by Coors is also brewed by Moslon in Toronto, Ontario... which oddly enough isn't sold here. It doesn't claim to be imported, but it does claim to be rich and complex tasting. It wasn't. Way too sweet, and expensive.

My final thoughts. I think that it is lying to customera by having in bold lettering that these beers are imported. They were all priced higher then USA domestic beers, and being imported from here in Canada shouldn't make USA beer drinkers pay more.

Anyone out there have more beers to comment on that claim to be 'Imports'?

- cattersley.

[steveh]

Originally posted by cattersley
Anyone out there have more beers to comment on that claim to be 'Imports'?

Not that I wouldn't want my Guinness direct from Ireland (I believe the Extra Stout comes direct to the US from Dublin), technically - Canada is a foreign country to the USA, so anything coming in is imported. This would include Molson, LaBatt, and Moose Head (is Moose Head still around?).

AFA the Blue Moon (a Belgian "style" Wit, BTW), it's brewed by all the Coors' breweries around this country (and Canada too, I suppose) so that isn't necessarily always "imported" to the US.

S.

[cattersley]

I just thought it interesting. To me and import is anything outside of North America. So technically yes they are imported.

- cattersley

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
Not that I wouldn't want my Guinness direct from Ireland (I believe the Extra Stout comes direct to the US from Dublin)

Nope. Just drank a bottle last week. Label states it comes from our neighbors to the north.

[MeridianFC]

The Guinness Extra has been coming from CA for a while now. It's actually really gone down in quality. That's no dig at Canadian brewing which has many excellent beers, but more a dig at that particular contract brewing situation. Harp's tasted like arse for years I wonder if that's why. I remember it being a relatively nice malty brew.

The Guinness Draught (bottle and kegs) served in the US still comes from Eire, at least the last time I checked.

[jesskidden]

Contract brewing of foreign brands wasn't unknown in the US previously, of course (there was the subsidiary company of Carling in the US that brewed Black Label, Red Cap Ale and, later, Tuborg for the US market, as well as a fabled, short-lived Guinness on Long Island at the Burke Brewery and Prior from Adam Scheidt and Schmidt's in PA) but, during the "Beer Wars" of the 1970's, the "revelation" that Miller was brewing a domestic version of Lowenbrau for the US market got a lot of negative press (thanks, no doubt, to A-B's complaints). It was quite a secret- the only way one would have known it wasn't German was TO READ THE LABEL. (Oddly enough, when Miller finally lost the contract only a couple of years ago, Lowenbrau was for a short time brewed by Labatt in Canada for the US, before becoming an German import again. As if, it had to take some kind of intermediate step back to Europe...<g>).

As luck would have it (luck for the beer marketers) people still don't read the labels closely, so the reassuring "IMPORTED" across the neck label is all that most drinkers of those beers you've listed need. Add to your list Sapporo beer, which now makes even more sense with them owning Sleemans.

Back a few (many...) years ago, Tuborg (as noted above) was brewed in the US but it's sister beer, Carlsberg, was still imported. In Canada, I was surprised to find just the opposite.

The Long Island Guinness from Burke supposedly was done in by the fact that imported Guinness was still coming in to the US market- I guess their lawyer had been at the brewery taproom before reading the fine print.

I was surprised to learn that MolsonCoors' Blue Moon beers were coming from Molson breweries in Canada and that they *weren't* using the IMPORTED tag. Seems I later read that the move was in part due to the loss of US capacity when they closed the Memphis plant.

The subject does come up frequently and, when I remember I try to check the labels when I'm in a store (I never buy those beers, so I can't just run to the 'frig and check 'em). I thought last time I looked that Harp was still coming from Ireland (and somewhat surprised by that, too- I mean, why bother?).

[cattersley]

A very good reply. You mention Saporo owning Sleeman. I was suprised to find Saporo being sent from Newbrunwick to the USA through Sleeman Maritimes. I got that bottle for my collection during a Cruise out of New York which started my interest in looking at imported beers while in the USA. Most beers in Ontario are imported from there country of orgin, and a handfull are contract brewed. I found it to be misleading when advertising a beer from there country of origin, actually mentioning that country, like Fosters as Australia's Lager, being 'Imported', and then looking at the bottle and it comming from Toronto. But as with any product, everyone should always read the fine print...

- cattersley.

[markaberrant]

The Guinness Extra that is brewed by Labbatt is total garbage. I bought a 6-pack and gave 4 of them away. It's not even available in Saskatchewan anymore, I last saw it about 18 months ago.

Blue Moon is brewed in Canada and the US, though it is not available in Canada. HOWEVER, Rickards White was released in Canadian test markets last year on draft, and is now being launched nationwide. Most tasters are convinced that Rickards White is simply Blue Moon that has been rebranded for the Canadian market (both are 5.4% alc).

So there you go.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by jesskidden
Contract brewing of foreign brands wasn't unknown in the US previously, of course (there was the subsidiary company of Carling in the US that brewed Black Label, Red Cap Ale and, later, Tuborg for the US market, as well as a fabled, short-lived Guinness on Long Island at the Burke Brewery and Prior from Adam Scheidt and Schmidt's in PA) but, during the "Beer Wars" of the 1970's, the "revelation" that Miller was brewing a domestic version of Lowenbrau for the US market got a lot of negative press (thanks, no doubt, to A-B's complaints). It was quite a secret- the only way one would have known it wasn't German was TO READ THE LABEL. (Oddly enough, when Miller finally lost the contract only a couple of years ago, Lowenbrau was for a short time brewed by Labatt in Canada for the US, before becoming an German import again. As if, it had to take some kind of intermediate step back to Europe...<g>).

As luck would have it (luck for the beer marketers) people still don't read the labels closely, so the reassuring "IMPORTED" across the neck label is all that most drinkers of those beers you've listed need. Add to your list Sapporo beer, which now makes even more sense with them owning Sleemans.

Back a few (many...) years ago, Tuborg (as noted above) was brewed in the US but it's sister beer, Carlsberg, was still imported. In Canada, I was surprised to find just the opposite.

The Long Island Guinness from Burke supposedly was done in by the fact that imported Guinness was still coming in to the US market- I guess their lawyer had been at the brewery taproom before reading the fine print.

I was surprised to learn that MolsonCoors' Blue Moon beers were coming from Molson breweries in Canada and that they *weren't* using the IMPORTED tag. Seems I later read that the move was in part due to the loss of US capacity when they closed the Memphis plant.

The subject does come up frequently and, when I remember I try to check the labels when I'm in a store (I never buy those beers, so I can't just run to the 'frig and check 'em). I thought last time I looked that Harp was still coming from Ireland (and somewhat surprised by that, too- I mean, why bother?).

I remember when Miller tried to keep the fact that they were now brewing Lowenbrau in the States on the mum. You had to look on the BOTTOM of the sixpack holder to find that out. They pulled that about the time that they were also suing for total rights to the term "Lite" and "Light" because of their purchase of Meisterbrau in the late 50s. It was then that I began to really hate Miller even though they were owned by Phillip Morris a Virginia based company. I think at the time that Miller was brewing the phony Lowenbrau Stateside, Both Pabst and AB were bringing in German imports to compete. I think Furstenburg and Wurtzburger were the brands.

I remember when Tuborg was brewed in the States too. Wasn't it Carling Natl. who brewed it or was that the short lived Old Heidleburg?

I remember the Prior Double Dark from Schmidts

Carlsberg Elephant Malt was sold in the US and I think it was rumored to be of fairly high ABV. I drank my share regrettably. It was not that good.

Jess, I'm glad you've come to this board. Your making me remember my younger days and it's great to have another guy who is interested in the history and collecting here too.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I remember when Miller tried to keep the fact that they were now brewing Lowenbrau in the States on the mum. You had to look on the BOTTOM of the sixpack holder to find that out.

Yeah, the way I remember it was that it took awhile for all the Lowenbrau in every region of the country to be from Miller, so that, in small letters, one had to look for either:
IMPORTED BY MILLER BREWING CO.
or
BREWED BY MILLER BREWING CO.
on the label.

Originally posted by chazwicke
I think at the time that Miller was brewing the phony Lowenbrau Stateside, Both Pabst and AB were bringing in German imports to compete. I think Furstenburg and Wurtzburger were the brands.



Yeah, I was sorting through a pile of old Brewers Digests I had misplaced and found again in the basement and was surprised at how many US breweries at the time (70-80's) were bringing in imports. I saw an ad for Stella Artois as (I think) being imported by Heileman, and Olympia was also bringing in a German beer. I think Coors even brought in and then contract-brewed the Australian XXXX for a time, too, as well as that "joint" beer Masters Something or 'Nother, with a German and Canadian company.

Wasn't Wurzburger the beer A-B brought in in tanks and bottled in the US?

Originally posted by chazwicke

I remember when Tuborg was brewed in the States too. Wasn't it Carling Natl. who brewed it or was that the short lived Old Heidleburg?



I think the Tuborg contract came before the merger with National, but they continued making the beer, as did, I think, Heileman.

The US Carling was a subsidiary of the Canadian Carling, but was spun off at some point when Carling O-Keefe was bought and sold to one of it's many owners and I think the US company then merged at the same time with National. In retrospect, that company, Carling-National, didn't last very long, did it?

Originally posted by chazwicke


I remember the Prior Double Dark from Schmidts



The bottled product disappeared when Schmidt's did, I guess, but apparently the draft continued to be brewed by Matts. Makes sense, because I used to see Prior Double Dark on tap in the Finger Lakes area when I lived up there a lot- more than I ever saw it in NJ or PA. The "common wisdom" is that Matts used the same recipe for it's Saranac Black Forest, and I've read stories of a Prior tap suddenly becoming a SBF tap in NY State. Wonder who owns that name? Michael Jackson called it the best dark beer in the US in his first Pocket Guide, IIRC.

Originally posted by chazwicke


Carlsberg Elephant Malt was sold in the US and I think it was rumored to be of fairly high ABV. I drank my share regrettably. It was not that good.



Me, too. Yeah, it wasn't too good, but it was alcoholic!
I sort of lost interest in Carlsberg and most Euro light lagers and for a time it was another "Brewed in Canada by Labatts type import" but I see it's back to a Danish product. I bought one a few months back for nostalgic sakes- it still was not that good.

Originally posted by chazwicke


Jess, I'm glad you've come to this board. Your making me remember my younger days and it's great to have another guy who is interested in the history and collecting here too.

Yeah, well, I drift in and out of hobbies, so I'm just getting re-acquainted with brewing history after 10-15 out of the hobby. (Never lost my taste for good beer, tho'- and have kept up with micro goings on in the Northeast).

Sometimes I read these young guys on sites like BA talking about the latest events and the "new" things and feel like an old fogie saying, "Ah, you young whippersnappers, Anheuser Busch pulled that sh*t back in the 60's. And such and such ain't new, and they were makin' that type of beer back pre-Prohibition and, man, you ain't lived til you drank Ballantine India Pale Ale from a 7 oz. deposit bottle....". <g>

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
The Guinness Draught (bottle and kegs) served in the US still comes from Eire, at least the last time I checked.

I had it backwards -- not the first time.

S.

[P-Train]

Great replies from everyone!

I was in a college bar last year and aside from paying $4.50 for a 12 oz. Guinness the only thing they had that I could stomach was Rolling Rock.

The bartender assured me it was an import.

I said, "You mean an import across state lines?" and showed him the bottle "St. Louis, MO."

The bartender wouldn't budge off the import price until I complained to the manager that I would call the local news and expose him.

I’ve noticed several brands claiming “imported” but I knew were not.

[M.K. Jeeves]

Ditto Whitbread and Kirin.
Cavet Emptor

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by P-Train
Rolling Rock...The bartender assured me it was an import.

I’ve noticed several brands claiming “imported” but I knew were not.

I think this is a different situation but one we've all seen, where a bar or restaurant that lists beers under "Domestic" or "Imported" catagories, and are priced accordingly, puts certain craft beers in the "Import" column where the prices are higher. One finds Blue Moon, Killians, Sam Adams and others over in that list often and some restaurants are clever enough now to begin calling it "Specialty" beers or some other similar term. (I've never personally seen it happen with Rolling Rock , tho'- musta been the green bottle <g>). I still find it amusing when, in NJ, Budweiser is often listed as "St. Louis, MO" on a menu- I guess they just don't want to say "Newark, across Rt. 1 from the airport....".

Still, that's a mistake/deception by the retailer, not the brewer. I think you'd have a valid complaint that you could take the BATF (or whatever they call that department nowadays) if you saw a US brewed beer labeled "Imported".

"7.25 (a) Domestic malt beverages. (1) On labels of containers of domestic malt beverages there shall be stated the name of the bottler or packer and the place where bottled or packed. The bottler's or packer's principal place of business may be shown in lieu of the actual place where bottled or packed if the address shown is a location where bottling or packing operation takes place. The appropriate TTB officer may disapprove the listing of a principal place of business if its use would create a false or misleading impression as to the geographic origin of the beer."

[dparsons]

Its kind of funny all the marketing gimmicks that get pulled. The bottom line for me is whether the beer is good or not. If its Guiness brewed in Tanzania and shipped into the country, that doesn't matter in the final analysis.

[surfadelic23]

"If its Guiness brewed in Tanzania "
I've heard the Guinness brewed in Africa is pretty good...

[steveh]

Originally posted by P-Train
Guinness the only thing they had that I could stomach was Rolling Rock.

The bartender assured me it was an import.


Then there's the bars that have "domestic" nights and I try to give geography and history lessons on Massachusetts - "Uh, one of the original colonies - ya know?"

Claiming import from Canada is one thing, but a Rolling Rock as an import is criminal -- you should expose them.

Reminds me of the last time (which was over 10 years ago) I was in a local redneck bar and the bar-tender rattled off the import list to 2 girls in line in front of me, "Heineken, Beck's, St. Pauli, Corona, and Leinenkugel." As I said, last time I was in that joint.

Cattersley: though outside N. America proper, Mexico has the same proximity to the U.S. as Canada -- and Corona, Bohemia, Dos Equis - et al, are all considered imports here.

S.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh
Then there's the bars that have "domestic" nights and I try to give geography and history lessons on Massachusetts - "Uh, one of the original colonies - ya know?"
S.

I seem to recall a move by US winemakers a few years back to discourage the use of the word "domestic" since it had negative/inferior conotations for many people and to encourage the use of the term "US wine" or "American Wine".

Seems that, in some ways, bars and restaurants use the "Domestic" label as another way (incorrect as it may be) to say "macro beer", as opposed to "craft" or "specialty". And A-B and SABMiller would, unlike the wine marketers, probably PREFER the term as it would also suggest that craft beer, tho' made here, is some how still "foreign" <g>.

Originally posted by steveh


Cattersley: though outside N. America proper, Mexico has the same proximity to the U.S. as Canada -- and Corona, Bohemia, Dos Equis - et al, are all considered imports here.

S.

Well, Mexico is in North America, by most definitions of the continent, but, when catagorized not by geography but by culture, it's part of "Latin America".

Altho', bringing up Mexican beer reminds me of another factor along these "Domestic/Import" confusions. Wasn't A-B for a time brewing draft Dos Equis in their LA area brewery for the US market (or am I mis-remembering that?). I always forget which Mexican brewing group A-B has a part of, and which one brews which beers.

Certainly, for all the tricks and fine print labeling that goes on with bottled/canned beers, when it comes to draft beer and the "brand-name only" tap handle, one REALLY never knows the original source of the stuff coming out of the keg down below.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by jesskidden
one REALLY never knows the original source of the stuff coming out of the keg down below.

Though one should. A consumer has the right to know where the product consumed is being made.

[stronk]

Harp's tasted like arse for years I wonder if that's why
Sorry for the digression, people, but that made me laugh out loud. The reason Harp has tasted like arse for ages is that even the Irish have given up on it. It's been relegated to the 'stout-brewer's bitter' category (actually, is it a bitter? I'm beginning to think it's a lager. Whatever: it's not worth the energy).

[Dry County Paul]

Has anyone else every noticed the wide variation in Rolling Rock prices? In various liquor stores, I've seen it priced as high as Sam Adams and in others cheaper than Bud.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by stronk
(actually, is it a bitter? I'm beginning to think it's a lager. Whatever: it's not worth the energy).

It's a lager. A watery, lifeless, lager. As I recall it used to have something of a malt backbone and be slightly reminicent of a german pale lager, now it's much like Dundalk on wet Tuesday, full of liquid but not much else.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jesskidden
Well, Mexico is in North America, by most definitions of the continent, but, when catagorized not by geography but by culture, it's part of "Latin America".

My mistake, Central America really isn't a continent is it?

Stronk, Harp's always been a lager - but a lager in the same ilk as Sam Smith's lager - pretty lifeless. Why is it the Anglos can't produce a lager on the same level as the Germans? Even the Germans have their top-fermented brews that are fine on the palate.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
As I recall it used to have something of a malt backbone and be slightly reminicent of a german pale lager

Wow, I wish I could recall a time when it was that good. It's always seemed to have had an off taste that I can't put my finger on - not as clean as a German or Bohemian lager.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Well there's at least one trying:

http://www.meantimebrewing.com/

Still a long way to go mind. You're question is a good one though. For a country that produces some mighty beer they are extremely lacking in that category.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Well there's at least one trying:

http://www.meantimebrewing.com/

How are the reviews?

S.

[MeridianFC]

Well the reviews from me are pretty good. ;)

I've had most of the regular offering at the tap in Greenwich. I've had two of the specials in bottle over here, though both of those were ales (IPA and Porter). As far as their lagers, which I had all of on draft, I thought they were solid enough vaguely like what many American brewpubs/micros put out when doing lager. Not up to the lofty heights of the great German lagers, but well above most Domesitically (UK) produced specimens. The Helles and Organic Pilsner are very good. I've not had the Vienna, at least not by that name. When I was there last I did have an amber lager but I can't recall what the name was. The Chocolate beer is excellent but I don't know if it's a lager or an ale. It's fairly clean for an ale if it's not a lager.

As you know I love my cask ale (and my lagers too) but when in the UK I find the Meantime brews a refreshing change of pace.

A Gordon Biersch might do pretty well over there.

[chazwicke]

I'll try to get by the Brew Wharf pub this coming weekend and try some of their brews. I need to get to Borough Market anyway. Bill Madden recommended a cheese shop there.

http://www.nealsyarddairy.co.uk/ourshops.html

He said the Stilton is heavenly.

[stronk]

UK lagers are few and far between. CAMRA hates them, because they are usually filtered to go along with the cleaner taste of the styles. There are a few cask-conditioned lagers which (IMO) taste like a monkey that's past its prime.

Some of the craft brewers have been experimenting with lagers (this has been going on for a while at a low level: Freedom brewery's (used to be a London micro) flagship beer is a lager; nice czechy taste to it, maybe a bit over the the malty side). Young's have a pilsener (I have yet to try it, but I will have a go for you next time I'm at my nearest Young's pub). Basically, there is a dichotomy of drinkers and of beers: there are loads of macro swill lagers drunk by uncaring consumers and these are battled by ales, which show their allegiance generally by being as different as possible (take the famous Hobgoblin adverts, for example).

Sorry for the hijack (as usual!).

[chazwicke]

Stronk and Richard, I'm a tight leash this trip. and I'll have some extended family along so I'll most likely not get to meet up this time. Not my choice. Both Andrew and I would like to but it seems I'm the team leader and some of the others don't really drink. We're only in London a short time so they need to fit in as much touristy stuff as they can. :( I hate travelling like this.

[stronk]

Check your PMs, Chaz (when I've got round to typing the message, that is!).

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by stronk
There are a few cask-conditioned lagers which (IMO) taste like a monkey that's past its prime.

.

Schiehellion by Harviestoun is excellent if you run across it.

[M.K. Jeeves]

Anyone out there have more beers to comment on that claim to be 'Imports'?

- cattersley. [/B][/QUOTE]

It's a perceived value issue. Just like if you ordered an authentic German beer stein, upended it and found out it was made in Bangladesh. You may have a quality mug but would still feel gypped none the less.

I want my Guinness brewed at ST. James gate

[dparsons]

Originally posted by jesskidden
Seems that, in some ways, bars and restaurants use the "Domestic" label as another way (incorrect as it may be) to say "macro beer", as opposed to "craft" or "specialty". And A-B and SABMiller would, unlike the wine marketers, probably PREFER the term as it would also suggest that craft beer, tho' made here, is some how still "foreign" <g>.

'zactly

[dparsons]

Originally posted by stronk
UK lagers are few and far between. CAMRA hates them, because they are usually filtered to go along with the cleaner taste of the styles. There are a few cask-conditioned lagers which (IMO) taste like a monkey that's past its prime.

Some of the craft brewers have been experimenting with lagers (this has been going on for a while at a low level: Freedom brewery's (used to be a London micro) flagship beer is a lager; nice czechy taste to it, maybe a bit over the the malty side). Young's have a pilsener (I have yet to try it, but I will have a go for you next time I'm at my nearest Young's pub). Basically, there is a dichotomy of drinkers and of beers: there are loads of macro swill lagers drunk by uncaring consumers and these are battled by ales, which show their allegiance generally by being as different as possible (take the famous Hobgoblin adverts, for example).

Sorry for the hijack (as usual!).

When I was in the UK last fall it seemed that the English didn't know what a Real Lager was (sorry to steal CAMRA's keyword there). There were a few poor quality "imports" but nothing local that I observed. The people I was visiting found my comments on them ironic, me being an American and telling them the available lagers were poor. :D

You do some fantastic ales though. Don't loose sight of that and send more of them over here. We need more imports.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Though one should. A consumer has the right to know where the product consumed is being made.

Oh, I agree. It seems to me that the Feds in the US have actually loosened the rule about listing the id & location of a brewery on the labels, since they can list a location OTHER than the site of the actual brewery : "The bottler's or packer's principal place of business may be shown in lieu of the actual place where bottled or packed if the address shown is a location where bottling or packing operation takes place." (Hmmm... I think I already quoted that line in this thread, now that I think of it...).


When a proposal to mandate Nutrition labeling came up in the early 90's, according to the ATF "...ATF received 55 comments in response to the advance notice. Only 7 of these comments came from consumers. However, 5 of the 7 consumers who commented opposed nutrition labeling."
http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/info/faq/alf.htm#alf3

That just blows my mind- only 7 comments from consumers and most of them DIDN'T want to know what was in their beer? Seems to me, one of the things that this site (and BA and RB) could do now that there are places for "beer consumers" to gather and become informed, is act as a beer consumers group (a la CAMRA) and when these proposals come up bombard the ATF with requests for full disclosure on labeling and rationalizing some of the more subjective rules (Ask any Coors Light drinker on the East Coast where his beer comes from- Colorado's Rocky Mts. or Virginia? THAT'S not deceptive? ) and get rid of some of the ones used only to harass small brewers like this one:

(g) Flags, seals, coats of arms, crests, and other insignia. No advertisement shall contain any statement, design, device, or pictorial representation of or relating to, or capable of being construed as relating to the armed forces of the United States, or of the American flag, or of any emblem, seal, insignia, or decoration associated with such flag or armed forces; nor shall any advertisement contain any statement, device, design, or pictorial representation of or concerning any flag, seal, coat of arms, crest, or other insignia, likely to mislead the consumer to believe that the product has been endorsed, made, or used by, or produced for, or under the supervision of, or in accordance with the specifications of the government, organization, family, or individual with whom such flag, seal, coat of arms, crest, or insignia is associated.

Didn't a micro get in trouble for using a US flag on the label recently (hardly unknown)? Yet, pictures of "individuals" like Sam Adams, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and George Custer are allowed on labels?

[chazwicke]

I'm pretty sure there were some Bi-centennial cans with flag or flag representations on them. They must have relaxed that rule for the celebration.

[eppie]

I have a bit of inside information regarding this. Fosters was (is?) brewed in Canada so that it can be labeled 'import'. The owning company did some market research and realized the extra they sell by having 'imported' on the can does not compensate for the extra brewing and shipping costs. They will consolidate the brewing in the breweries they have in the States.

We see a very simular thing here in Bleguim. Brugge Tripel is brewed in Roeslaere. Brugs Tarwe bier is brewed in FRANCE! InBev has moved Hoegaarden out of Hoegaarden, and it's been a long time since Jupiler has been brewed in Jupile. There are good local breweries that haven't been bought up, but thier numbers are dwindeling.
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[corkybstewart]

When we toured the Haalf Maan(sp) a few years ago we were told that the beer was actually brewed somewhere else. This past trip we heard that the brewery was about to start operating again. What's the story Eppie?
We accidentally ended up driving through Hoegaarden last summer and it was depressing to see the brewery locked up and deserted. They do have a nice copper kettle in the roundabout though.

[chazwicke]

I remember following our noses to the Monestary where Chimay was brewed. We were eventually chased off the grounds and told that the visitors center was down the road. Never made it to the visitors centre though. But the smell of the brew that day was awesome.

[eppie]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
When we toured the Haalf Maan(sp) a few years ago we were told that the beer was actually brewed somewhere else. This past trip we heard that the brewery was about to start operating again. What's the story Eppie?
We accidentally ended up driving through Hoegaarden last summer and it was depressing to see the brewery locked up and deserted. They do have a nice copper kettle in the roundabout though.

They don't brew Straffe Hendrick there anymore, but they started brewing a new beer 'Brugse Zot' on the premisis. It sells well with the tourists because it's the only official 'brugge' beer, but I tried it and wasn't impressed.
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[corkybstewart]

Straffe Hendrick is the beerthat really kicked of my desire to improve my homebrewing(and my love of Belgian beer). We were just stopping in Brugge for 2 days on our way to Holland and that was the first beer I drank in Brugge. I didn't even know Belgium was famous for beer back then. What a wasted 2 days in Brugge, but never again.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
The Guinness Extra has been coming from CA for a while now. It's actually really gone down in quality.

Just as an addendum to this conversation; I had a (large) bottle of Canadian brewed Guinness Extra this past Saturday and it was quite good. I agree that it seems to have fallen some from its past glory - not as roasty or slippery smooth in mouth-feel or heavy in body, lacking in some of that licorice bite from heavily kilned black patent malt, but it was no slouch when it comes to body and flavor -- and it would still scare the pants off the average BMC drinker.

Then again, maybe I've been overwhelmed by so many "extreme" brews out there and my palate is tainted.

S.

[jesskidden]

I've got to say that I haven't tried any Canadian Guinness Extra Stout since my first -disappointing- bottle of it a number of years ago. (Ditto for the first bottles I had of Boston Beer Co's Mackeson's).

Yet I do hear some good things occassionally about both contract-brews, and, even considering it may be from people who never *had* the originals, it does get my interest up - but then I think, "Ah, there's so much else to drink." I don't see the Mackeson "bomber" size anymore- mostly I see boxed 12 packs in my area- but the Guinness ES is available as a single or bomber, so it's not like one has to invest a lot I guess.

I was surprised to see that Moosehead is now the contractor for GES sold in the US but haven't heard anyone state that it's better than the Labatt version, but that's certainly a possibly, too.

I think that maybe, just as we're often disappointed with old favorites when we taste them again after our palates have been changed by today's more extreme beers, maybe a beer that changes for the worse is remembered as being even lousier than it really is, since it was such a big letdown at the time it was new? <g>

[chazwicke]

My son purchased a can of the Guinness Draught brewed in Dublin at a local shop when we were in London last week. I thought it tasted better than the Canadian version however, I may be in the minority but I still enjoy Guinness especially on tap.
We were having a small amount of down time and he ran out for a snack. Not wanting to lose any time in our quest he bought that one for a try. We did manage to crack 100 beers between us. The vast majority being cask conditioned. I'll have our list later.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jesskidden
(Ditto for the first bottles I had of Boston Beer Co's Mackeson's).

Hmm? I hadn't heard about this...also haven't had a Mackeson's in quite a while.

S.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh
Hmm? I hadn't heard about this...also haven't had a Mackeson's in quite a while.

S.

Near as I can figure- Snyder International (the last owner of Hudepohl-Schoenling brands), under a deal with Royal Class Import Export, had the contract to import Whitbread & Mackeson, which evolved into a contract to brew them for the US market at the Cinci brewery (late 90's?).

Boston Beer Co. bought the brewery, contract brewed the Snyder brands for a time and then kicked 'em out BUT apparently, they kept or got the contract to continue brewing Mackeson and Whitbread Ale (which are owned by Inbev and, last I heard, they don't even brew them in the UK anymore after letting the contract with Young's [I think it was] end).

I've seen reports that The Lion has made Mackeson Stout as well (in "bomber" bottles, IIRC).

It seems odd, since IIRC Boston still uses contract breweries (Genesee/High Falls and maybe others?) for some of their production- unless they really did a major upgrade of the Cincinnati brewery, which, in the late 80's only had a capacity of 600,000 since BBC sells 1.5 million barrels a year.

[steveh]

BeerAdvocate reports it's still being made in the UK by Whitbread. Got any links to reports on BBC's "ownership?"

S.

[Cass]

Very weird that all these beers are brewed elsewhere. I am a huge Guinness fan, and am Canadian, but have never had a Canadian brewed Guinness. All of them have Brewed in Ireland slapped all over em. Bought myself a case this past weekend as a matter or fact and it was the same delightful roasted flavour it's always been. Wouldn't mind tasting the difference, even if it is crap. Canada does have some mighty fine beers of its own though, other than Labatt and Molson (which are both american now anyways :o ), they were never any hell.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh
BeerAdvocate reports it's still being made in the UK by Whitbread. Got any links to reports on BBC's "ownership?"

S.

Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't say that BBC "owns" the brands, merely they contract brew them under license from Inbev, which owns the old Whitbread brands. (BBC does own the old Schoenling Brewery, in Cincinnati- which is why I wrote "BBC bought the brewery...").

And, well, I find some of the beer websites' listings lacking at times. Not too long ago Rolling Rock was listed as a "pale ale" on one of them <g> (since corrected) and, on the same subject of this thread, I see that BA doesn't list the Canadian brewer for US-distributed Guinness Extra Stout, either (on the bottles I see in NJ it's "New Brunswick, Canada"- which can only be Moosehead. A West Coast BA poster claims it's Molson and Konkakee (?)- which is a Labatt brand, so I assume it's a DBA name- out there).


As far as "Whitbread" still making Mackeson in the UK, the stories I've read is that Inbev contracted in out to Young's but with the recent merger of Wells and Youngs, the brand is now in limbo. (Note that Whitbread or Mackeson are not even listed as "local brands" on the Inbev website- so prehaps they are about to be "Rolling Rocked", not fitting in with their future plans?.)

http://www.inbev.com/press_releases/whitbread.cfm

Unfortunately, the only source of info for the Young's Mackeson (besides Wikipedia, which I don't like to use as a reference) is this from the well-known UK beer writer (in his reply to a post in the comments section):

http://stonch.blogspot.com/2007/01/wells-youngs-take-courage.html


Back in the USA, the labels on the beer clearly notes it's brewed in Cincinnati and both Ratebeer and BeerPal note that BBC contract brews the Whitbread and the Mackeson. And here's a Cincinnati newspaper article about it.

http://www.news-gazette.com/community/food/index.cfm?page=kirbystory.cfm&id=36

or, if that breaks- http://tinyurl.com/2uk3pk

Several months ago, while looking for some info on the subject (a friend is a big fan of Mackeson Stout), I came across links that suggest that it's even available in kegs in certain areas (Mid-West) but unfortunately, I've never seen it.

As far as The Lion's version Mackeson, that's just from memory- read about it on the 'net, checked the shelves, found it, thinking I should try and never finding it again.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Cass
I am a huge Guinness fan, and am Canadian, but have never had a Canadian brewed Guinness.

In my part of the US, at least, the only "Canadian" Guinness is the Extra Stout, the "Draught" in keg, nitro cans and widgetted bottles are all from Ireland. The US's GES, once from Labatt, is now coming from Moosehead (the label reads "Brewed by Guinness Brewing Company, New Brunswick, Canada") but, if one were to believe the various beer websites (always a danger...<g>), Labatt makes GES for the Canadian market.


Originally posted by Cass
Labatt and Molson (which are both american now anyways

Now, now, be nice. Labatt is owned by InBev, headquartered in Belgium and the result of a merger of a Belgian and a Brazilian company. In fact, since they sold the Rolling Rock brand and then the Latrobe brewery, InBev has NO physical presence in the US- well, so far...(things change quick in the global beer industry...)

Sorry 'bout Molson (I did use to like the Stock Ale but haven't had it in about 20 years).

[steveh]

Originally posted by jesskidden
Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't say that BBC "owns" the brands,

I was probably unclear too, I was using "owns" more as owning the brand, so to speak, and making it over here.

I don't use BA as gospel either, but they're usually up-to-date. There are many reports by the Bros on Guinness being brewed in Canada -- maybe they just boil down their brewery data to the head office -- dunno, but I'd think (as much as they're buddy-buddy with Jim Koch) they'd be all over domestic Mackeson...I'll have to search their site.

Back in the USA, the labels on the beer clearly notes it's brewed in Cincinnati and both Ratebeer and BeerPal note that BBC contract brews the Whitbread and the Mackeson. And here's a Cincinnati newspaper article about it.

http://www.news-gazette.com/community/food/index.cfm?page=kirbystory.cfm&id=36

or, if that breaks- http://tinyurl.com/2uk3pk


Interesting, thanks for that link. I'll have to look up a six of the Mackeson, haven't seen it on tap in my area - I'm surprised BBC isn't hitting the mark with it.

S.

[steveh]

Appears they first reported it back in '02:

http://beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/435

S.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by steveh

I don't use BA as gospel either, but they're usually up-to-date. There are many reports by the Bros on Guinness being brewed in Canada -- maybe they just boil down their brewery data to the head office --

S.

Well, the odd thing about not differentiating the contract-brewed versions from the "real" brews on sites like BA for controversial beers like these is that it then becomes difficult for people to rate and compare the different versions, I'd imagine. (The Bros. sure seem to share my initial impression of the US Mackeson in that article you linked to),

Originally posted by steveh
(as much as they're buddy-buddy with Jim Koch) they'd be all over domestic Mackeson...I'll have to search their site.
S.

Perhaps, BBC "got" the contract to brew it reluctantly, and were stuck with it (some sort of successor clause?) as part of the deal when they bought the Schoenling brewery and isn't really crazy about it, or interested in advertising the fact - esp. since they stress the "Made in the US not foreign" aspect of their Samuel Adams brand? (Notice that that newspaper article quotes a local Ohio distributor, not anyone from BBC, itself.)


The Mackeson/Whitbread brands were listed on their website as Snyder products when they were still in business, but, perhaps, the deal was a separate contract and was obviously not affected when the contract ended or expired for BBC to contract brew the other Snyder brands like Little Kings, Hudepohl and Christian Morelein?

One *would* have thought that InBev (pre-Rolling Rock sale, of course) would have used it's own brewery, with excess capacity IIRC, in Latrobe to brew it's Whitbread brands but nothing in the Global Brewing Industry makes much sense...

[chazwicke]

I think Hudepohl also used to contract the Banks Beer.