Going for it in New York

[dannyc31]

Well today is day one of the new brewhouse project. Myself and my partner are making our dream of opening a brewhouse a real life challange. We are starting our expanding our research into the local market. We started today by looking at some sites to open the brewhouse at most where to big for what we need and want to spend. We looked at two sites that where over 15,000 square feet. I belive we can get away with a start up site of around 1500-2500 square feet hoping to pay around 5-8 dollars a sqaure for rent.

We contacted the local SUNY school to see if they would do a feasabilty study to see if our city can and would support a local Brewhouse. We have a city of about 50k and when the college is in session we grow to about 58-60k people, we have over 10 bars in less than a mile radius and 10-15 resturants in the same radius.

We belive this would support a 10-15bbl setup, we would keg and onsite sales first. We think the bottling end woudl be down the road when the demand is there for the bottling end.

I have two thoughts that i need some help on right now.

1. We know we need ot make a flagship beer (thinking an Ale) now do we gear it towords the city or should we lean to the SUNY college. most of the bar business is college and the resturant leans more to the locals. We woudl of course choose one and shortly after have the second one in production.

2. The amount of square footage needed for a brew house if anyone can give some input on the size that woudl be a great help, on how much area these sytems really do take up.


Check back with us to see how we are doing and opening day the first keg is on us!! now comes the crap part writing the business plan. Damm

[Mill Rat]

You'll need several beers when you open, it really does not matter which you brew first. Don't choose beween the townfolk and college kids, get them both. You may want to separate things a bit into restaurant and barroom. Do some research on the pre-prohibition breweries in the area and see if you can key off that sort of "heritage" theme, too.

[dparsons]

I'd think that 1500 sqft would be small, but that is a guess. You'll need space for something in the way of an office, bathrooms, brewing, kegging, supplies, product storage, refrigeration?, etc. I'd make up a list of everything you need with dimensions: the dimensions of the equipment and the space required to work with and access the equipment, dimensions for offices & bathrooms, space for storage (considering what you need to stock in supplies and in finished product). Then take a scale drawing of a werehouse and your required stuff and see if you can get the stuff into the werehouse. You're gonna need to do this anyway, but doing it before you put down money on a space is a good idea. I'd also check on other small breweries as to what they use. Note that 1600 sqft is a 40x40 or 20x80 patch. Depending on how well funded you are, you may want to give yourselves a little extra above what you think you'll need.

I agree with MillRat that you should get both the college students and the townsfolks. Everybody drinks a good Pale Ale. The advertising and venue can be different.

[chazwicke]

Good luck with your project. You may want to talk to Bruno_78 on this board about the feasability study and business plan. He was once researching for his own place. Where in NY are you located. I have heard before that you need at least 50K in population to support a brewpub.

[newportstorm]

Clear this up, as there seems to be some confusion.

I took your plan to mean you were opening a craft brewery, which would sell your beer to area restaurants, bars, etc.
Then I see some mention of a brewpub.
Exactly what are you referring to with the term "brewhouse"?

Either way, my best "advice" is to be original.
Yes, Amber Ales, Pale Ales, Golden Ales, etc. are quick movers as they might appeal to a broad audience. And yes, many people do like to support local products. But be careful and know the beer market you're about to enter. If other local breweries (or even nationals like Sierra Nevada) offer a similar product and are already entrenched in the area, you've encountered an obstacle before even opening.

Might be tough to convince bar managers to free up draft space for your product unless they have a slow mover and the draft line isn't already spoken (paid) for.

Research the brewing history of the region and take a look at the demographics of the current residency - go deeper than "college students" or "yuppies". Is the area heavy on German influence? How about a proper Hefe (or Kristal Weiss)? An Altbier? A nice Dortmunder? A refreshing Kolsch? Not the typical flagship, but that's my point.

Then again, it's not my life savings on the line here.
Do what you think is best. Good luck.

[dannyc31]

Yes we are doing the brewing end only for now, the market is a wide range of back grounds, there is a very heavy italian area and a very old Irish area. We have a very big supporter of the local economey is the SUNY school and the biggest customer of the local area. Our projected market will include the Citys of Syracuse, Binghamton, Ithaca, and Cortland NY. There are no brews in Cortland or binghamton, there is Ithaca Beer in Ithaca, and the City of Syracuse has two brewhouses at this time.

The local bars and some of the resturants carry the Nat and the local beers already. This is part of the competiion and is expected. I am tossed between the idea of making a different kind of beer or starting off with a "mover" to get up and going and to show income to the company. No matter how good it taste if the cash is not coming in the door the investors are not going to had over the checks.

We have setup some tours with a few out of town brewers to see how there operations are working and so far we have not had anyone tells us to go f-ourselves. We also have had positive reactions from a few local city officlas who we have presented the idea to. We have also been told there is rehab money aval for a building and they would push the permits because the city would really like a brewhouse in the city limits. if these people are still in ofice in two years we may have some good luck.

thanks for the input guys you do not know how much the ideas help.

Dan

[wortchillergoal]

Good luck. I hope you do well. There was one small brewery that started here and went under. Empire Brewing, a brewpub, also pulled up stakes but I beieve that was another matter other than beer. Another guy just started but he contract brews.

AS far as the beer, that is a tough call. I would say a coin flip on a different kind or a mover. It took Middle Ages a little time but they do very well now.

I will ry to be the first of your customner base when you do get open.

[ratman03]

I applaud your ambition, and I am going to give you my advice, for what it is worth (this is not to imply that it's worth much).

From what I understand, it can be a difficult business. Appealing to a finicky public is always difficult, (see the Typical Beer Advocate thread) but more so when it is somewhat of a niche product.

That said, I gotta think that it's about timing and location. If the market is right, and your product is good, you should be able to make a go of it.

As for beers: I would start with something basic. I agree with Newport's advice to 'be original' -- but maybe not right in the beginning. I do see the reasoning behind that advice, but the fact is that there are a lot of good craft brews already available in the area you're talking about. So, you've really got to market the "fresh and local" thing, which is something that competitors from out of state can't say.

After you get established, you then can branch out into something 'different'. My reasoning is this: If you are introducing your product, you want something that will appeal to the widest range of people -- an amber or pale ale, for instance. You don't want to turn people off with something too exotic, even if it is a great tasting beer. You have to remember that most beer drinkers do not have particularly sophisticated palates. If you look at most successful brewers, they all have their flagship beer, i.e., the one that appeals to the most people (eg., SNPA, SA Boston Lager, Smuttynose Pale, O'Dell's 90 Shilling, etc...) And don't target the college kids, because most of them will be leaving after graduation! Look for something that resonates with the town or general area.

I have been in towns that don't seem like they could support a brewpub, yet they do, and others that you think would, but one brewpub after another goes under. An example: Los Angeles does not have a brewpub. You'd think an area with 10 million people would be able to support good beer, but fact is that the culture there is averse to it. Bottom line: Know your market!

I believe that non-yuppified areas will support a good brewpub if the location is right, and the beer is good. I'm not exactly clear on what you're thinking in terms of if you'll have a pub or just be a contract brewer; if I were to start any kind of commercial brewing, I would open a brewpub, because you can make $$ on food as well. Plus, the brewpub is basically an advertisement for your product. I surmise that it would be a lot more difficult to fight for shelf space at the local paint store as an unknown brewer without a brewpub.

Good luck, and please keep us posted with what you find. I'm sure a lot of us will be very interested in hearing about it.

[sundontlie]

in my opinion i think you'd better cater to those college kids..
i'm pretty familiar with the Binghamton area and i dont see the average populous enjoying a microbrew EVER. sorry to be such an idiot but i want you to do well and really think it out. my friend opened a pool/darts/poker store against all our best judgement and he's doing terribly (not that the two businesses have anything to do with one another)..
check this guy out
http://www.captainlawrencebrewing.com/
the owner's/brewer's name is Scott. He recently opened in Westchester NY and from the looks of the place he's doing incredibly well. His beers have already won awards and he has a loyal, enthusiastic fan base going strong. i was there picking up 2 kegs for a party at 11:00 a.m. on saturday and had to wait on line!!! (that was ok, i had all the free samples i could drink)

[Thirsty in NY]

I'm right around the corner from Capt. Lawrence. They make some great beer and Scott is a great guy. I get my growlers refilled about twice a month and it's always packed on Saturday. They don't even sell 12 oz bottles yet. Seems to be mostly kegs to every local bar and restaurant they can find. His parents help out on Saturdays too.

[dannyc31]

Well we wil be off soon to visit a few brews in the next week. WE are going to take all the notes we can, and anything else we can steal along the way :). If anyone can offer places to hit along the way please let us know we will be starting out near the alabany aera and working are way back the west. I will keep in touch to let you know when are where we are to keep upto date on the stops along the way. We are hpoing to take a week and hit the road in late April.

In the mean time we have an apponntment set for the 21st to apply for a grant from the city. This woudl be rehab money for a building and to start the investory search.

[iamnick]

Originally posted by sundontlie
in my opinion i think you'd better cater to those college kids..
i'm pretty familiar with the Binghamton area and i dont see the average populous enjoying a microbrew EVER. sorry to be such an idiot but i want you to do well and really think it out. my friend opened a pool/darts/poker store against all our best judgement and he's doing terribly (not that the two businesses have anything to do with one another)..
check this guy out
http://www.captainlawrencebrewing.com/
the owner's/brewer's name is Scott. He recently opened in Westchester NY and from the looks of the place he's doing incredibly well. His beers have already won awards and he has a loyal, enthusiastic fan base going strong. i was there picking up 2 kegs for a party at 11:00 a.m. on saturday and had to wait on line!!! (that was ok, i had all the free samples i could drink)

I have to agree with you. I am from Elmira, NY (~40 mins west of Binghamton) and don't see the average citizen of Elmira/Binghamton concerning himself with a quality beer unless, of course, it is cheap. Get those BU and BCC students.

[dannyc31]

Well we have purchsed the equipment we will be using, and we are all most done with a large walkin cooler in the garage. the paper work is in the mail for the feds to let us make the beer, we all know how this can be a killer. We have found an old master brewer who will be working with us for a while, we hope to be having our first beer tasting part in the next few months.

[chazwicke]

Excellent! Keep us posted. Where is your brewer from? Where has he brewed before?

[wortchillergoal]

I ask this because of a phone call I just received. Are you located in Cortland? If yes, I believe that we have a common friend.

[chazwicke]

Wort, could this be the departing brewer you told me about?

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Wort, could this be the departing brewer you told me about?

No, the guy I told you about left Middle Ages to go to Empire which is reopening.

I don't think I know the brewer, but if this is the same person, he has hooked up with a freind of mine who is very knowledgeable of beer and the distributors in this area. My friend also workd for a brew newspaper at one time.

[dannyc31]

Well we may sound like another pipe dream of the two guys who want to run there own brewery. I wanted to get that out of the way off the bat. Yes we are two guys who are getting ready to open Cortland Brewing Company, Inc. in Upstate NY. The idea has been with us for years, the money is just starting to appear. (Keep your fingers crossed) :)

We have been kicking the idea around for a long time, then one day as I strolled out of my office, (a company I have run with increased sales since I opened it 7 years ago). Had to throw that in to let you know I have a somewhat good idea on how to run the business end of things. I ran into the downtown business manger an asked him how he felt about a brewpub? "He said great idea!" as anyone does when you mention beer. So from that day on we have been on track to get this puppy up and running.

So we have reached the point that we are in need of a brewer/consultant. We are hoping to lean more to the brewer side, with hopes of a great consultant wrapped in the brewers mind. So with this in mind you can see where we stand.

This will be a ground breaking job to the way up, we are aware that we will not be able to steal the best and brightest of you away from the great paying jobs just yet! We are hoping and praying, (not trying to offend anyone) for a person who likes to push themselves to the greatest satisfaction of all, a true Craftsperson in the art of brewing who is looking for possibly there greatest feat of starting new. We need you new ideas, your input, your experience, your passion for great beer.

So if you dream like we do and are not afraid to take a leap with us. Email us at info@cortlandbrew.com. I will fill you in on the rest of the story if you have any interest at all. And yes we will be paying a wage for your work. Thought I was going to ask you to work for free i bet.

Dan

P.S You better like the snow!

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by dannyc31

So we have reached the point that we are in need of a brewer/consultant. We are hoping to lean more to the brewer side, with hopes of a great consultant wrapped in the brewers mind. So with this in mind you can see where we stand.

This will be a ground breaking job to the way up, we are aware that we will not be able to steal the best and brightest of you away from the great paying jobs just yet! We are hoping and praying, (not trying to offend anyone) for a person who likes to push themselves to the greatest satisfaction of all, a true Craftsperson in the art of brewing who is looking for possibly there greatest feat of starting new. We need you new ideas, your input, your experience, your passion for great beer.

So if you dream like we do and are not afraid to take a leap with us. Email us at info@cortlandbrew.com. I will fill you in on the rest of the story if you have any interest at all. And yes we will be paying a wage for your work. Thought I was going to ask you to work for free i bet.

Dan

P.S You better like the snow!

Post this in the classifieds over at http://www.probrewer.com/ if you haven't already.

[wortchillergoal]

Here is a link that updates this thread and how these would be brewers are doing.

http://www.syracuse.com/articles/cny/index.ssf?/base/living-0/1204106257249380.xml&col=1