juice vs cider

[toneyc]

What's the difference between apple "juice" and apple "cider"? I want to make another batch of hard cider or maybe a cyser so I've been browsing for recipes this morning and many of them call for "cider". So I pull out my little book, "Making the Best Apple Cider", by Annie Proulx, and read it from cover to cover and it seems to me that cider is the same thing as juice. What are your thoughts on this?

:)
Toney.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by toneyc
What's the difference between apple "juice" and apple "cider"? I want to make another batch of hard cider or maybe a cyser so I've been browsing for recipes this morning and many of them call for "cider". So I pull out my little book, "Making the Best Apple Cider", by Annie Proulx, and read it from cover to cover and it seems to me that cider is the same thing as juice. What are your thoughts on this?

:)
Toney.

hey Toney,

I think Proulx does use "juice" to refer the must attained from pressing apples. I am certain she is not referring to the kind of juice sold on supermarket shelves which have been pasturized/have persevatives/been artifically sweetened/flavored.

Ben Watson never talks about juice in his book, although chapter 4 is titled " Hard Cider: from Juice to Bottle. He uses the terms sweet cider to refer to unfermented apple cider. Like Proulx, he suggests use freshly pressed apple cider.

cheers and beers

[toneyc]

After further searching, I came across this lpage:

http://www.foodreference.com/html/tapplejuicecider.html

:)
Toney.

[sallad]

maybe they don't have apple trees in your part of the country toney, but they sure do around here! there are several little mom-and-pop type farmers markets that press and sell their own apple cider. let me tell, you, its nothing like apple juice you buy at the supermarket!

and its nearly cider season too, so i think i'm going to do a batch of cider myself using the freshest ingredients possible!

[barley ben]

is there something i'm missing when making cider. i tried once and it fermented to just about water. don't remember what i got for o.g. but ended at 1.000. it had no flavor left. want to try again so if anyone has any info they could give it would be great.

[toneyc]

Ah-ha! Exactly the same thing happened to me with my first batch of hard cider, which is why I asked the question. I don't think there's enough sugar content in the store bought apple juice. I think this why some recipes I've seen call for a couple of cans of apple juice concentrate, maybe to add more sugar. On the other hand, a couple of pounds of honey per gallon should provide plenty of fermentables! Three pounds is a little much for me, but I'll get it right eventually.

Sallad: We got cactus, mesquite, some oak and cedar, and a few pines, but vewwy few apple trees.

:)
Toney.

[briandickens]

All this talk of cider is making me thirsty. And it's also making me think... Friends of mine will be having a turkey fry while we watch NC State play whoever they're playing that week. At least, I think that's the plan. Anyway, I thought it would be nice if I brought a case or a keg of cider to the party.

With this thought in mind I searched the WHOLE INTERNET for recipes and turned up nothing that looked reliably good. Would anyone care to share a good hard cider recipe. I'm looking for an apple only cider (by which I mean no pear, blueberry, cherry, or other fruit added). Anyone care to share their favorite recipe with me? I, and my friends, would appreciate it.

Come to think of it, I've never had hard cider before... I just don't trust the garbage that my friends drink.

Thanks!

--b

[sallad]

what i plan to do is take an OG reading on just plain cider. then i'll bump up the gravity to somewhere in the 1045-1050 range with some honey and/or brown sugar, and ferment that out. unless someone knows a good way to concentrate apple cider without boiling it...?

i've never made a cider, take my advice at your own risk!

[mortong]

Here's my cider recipe. I just transfered it to a tertiary fermenter a few minutes ago. It tastes pretty good, but still needs to age - it's got a sulphery smell and little sulpher-tinged taste. I figure it'll be ready by Thanksgiving. =)

5 gallons fresh-pressed apple cider (from local farmer)
2 1/2 tsp Pectic enzyme
2 1/2 tsp Yeast Energizer
5 Campden tablets
2 pkg champaigne yeast
1 1/4 cup sugar (I'm using brown sugar)

Pour the cider into your primary, I didn't boil or heat it. I made sure to shake the gallon jugs vigorously during pouring to aerate. Crush the campden tablets, then dump them into the fermenter. Also add the energizer and pectic enzyme at this point. Mix it up as much as you can. Cover it up, with an airlock, and let it sit.

Rehydrate the yeast and pitch after a day or two.

Move to secondary when primary fermentation stops, then re-rack when you see a good amount of sediment build up. From what I understand it can take a month or two to get rid of the sulphery smell and taste, and I know from experience that it can be pretty overwhelming - don't worry, it's normal!

Add 1 1/4 cup dissolved/boiled sugar and the fermented cider into the bottling bucket when you're ready.

My OG was 1.053, my gravity now is 1.001.

Good luck with your hard cider.

Geoff

[danno]

Barley Ben and Toney: the secret is waiting... I too made a batch of hard cider, using a combination of pressed cider and concentrate from cans. It fermented so completely, and was very dry and vinegary tasting. So, I put it away.... and now, almost two years later, it's very nice, smooth, drinkable, and has become quite popular. That vinegary edge is gone...

I used Wyeast cider yeast. If I was to do it again, I'd use a lower attenuating ale yeast to try and leave some residual sweetness...

[YamahaXS]

I am in the process of making some cider, so I can't really speak from experience yet. But I have read a couple of books.

Annie Proulx
Ben Watson


Cider usually do ferment down to 1.000, 1.001. BUT there should still be an apply smell and taste to the cider. It just won't be sweet unless you take steps to sweeten it.

1) Add enough sugar or honey (makes cyser) so that the yeast die off before they convert all the sugars.

2) Kill off the yeast, or filter out the yeast, after secondary and then add more sugar (your cider won't be carbonated, unless you force carbonate).

Cider will take at least 4 months, and will prefer 6 -1 2 months.

[toneyc]

Here's the one I think I've decided to make:

http://brewery.org/brewery/gambmug/recs/209.shtml

:)
Toney.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by toneyc
Here's the one I think I've decided to make:

http://brewery.org/brewery/gambmug/recs/209.shtml

:)
Toney.

Looks good Toney, but why not make a 5 gallon batch? If its good you will want more than just 3 gallons. Maybe you have a 3 gallon cornie?

[briandickens]

Shouldn't be too hard to up it to five, right? Maybe 1/2 cup more of the honey and the brown sugar? The rest could be the same I'd think.

But that recipe looks good. I think I'll give it a shot too.

[barley ben]

Yeah, I kinda went out on a limb when making my last (only) batch. I guess I was thinking beer instead of cider. Maybe if I would have let it sit alot longer it would have been better. It had a thin apple taste to it which I believe could have been covered up by some off-flavors that will condition out of it. Guess if i knew more about it before it might have worked out better. Guess I'll try again. Toneyc's recipe looked like a good one. Thanks for the help!

[toneyc]

Actually, I was going to reduce it to a one gallon batch. I might make a five gallon batch after the current batch of mead is done.

:)
Toney.

[cyanide]

Is there any reason not to use pasteurized juice? As far as I'm aware, pasteurization only stops fermentation in a sealed bottle that has been pasteurized, so once you expose the juice's sugars, they will ferment, no?

Is it the flavor that comes from it the reason why people don't use it? Anyone know?

[mortong]

Pasteurization only changes the taste, not the fermentability. I used pasteurized fresh cider this time around, it was down to 1.001 in less than a week! =) I'm not sure how the taste will be different from unpasteurized cider, though?

How do they pasteurize? Do they boil it? If so, this means it'll taste like cooked, rather than fresh apples.

Geoff

[cyanide]

Originally posted by mortong
Pasteurization only changes the taste, not the fermentability. I used pasteurized fresh cider this time around, it was down to 1.001 in less than a week! =) I'm not sure how the taste will be different from unpasteurized cider, though?

How do they pasteurize? Do they boil it? If so, this means it'll taste like cooked, rather than fresh apples.

Geoff

Yep. From what I understand, they seal whatever spoilable food they have in a container, then heat the contents to a temperature hot enough to kill off any bacteria. I'm pretty sure this is the only difference between draft and 'real' bottled beer, no preservatives, it's just been 'cooked' a second time in the bottle basically.

I just wonder how this changes the juice and the flavor you get out of it. I'd think it wouldn't be that bad, as pasteurized beer isn't that bad.

Why on the subject, does anyone know how Guinness gets away with calling their beer "Draught" when it says right on the bottles and cans, "Pasteurized"?

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by cyanide
Is there any reason not to use pasteurized juice? As far as I'm aware, pasteurization only stops fermentation in a sealed bottle that has been pasteurized, so once you expose the juice's sugars, they will ferment, no?

Is it the flavor that comes from it the reason why people don't use it? Anyone know?

The books I have read say that Pasturization will destroy some of the flavor and aroma of hard cider.

Pasturized cider may still be fermented, whereas cider with perservatives may not.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by mortong

How do they pasteurize? Do they boil it? If so, this means it'll taste like cooked, rather than fresh apples.

Geoff

Most cider is pasturized by pumping it through something like a wort chiller, except that the coil is heated rather than cooled. I believe the target is 170 or 180 degrees for a few minutes. The equipment to do this is expensive, so small orchards that sell pasturized cider have most likely sent their cider to a processing plant to have it pasteurized and bottled.

Some cider is pasturized with Ultraviolet light. The machines are much more affordable (around $6,000) and are just starting to catch on. The books I have read have not said whether or not UV pastuerization degrades hard cider.

[Austinhomebrew]

ToneyC - It has been our experience that if you use Apple Juice and Champagne yeast (like most Hard Ciders recipes on the web recommend) you will have Apple Wine. For Hard Cider we use Apple Cider (with no additives) and Wyeast London III yeast.
If you take a gravity reading of the cider it is usually around 1.040. Your target should be 1.060. I would recommend adding a can or 2 of frozen Apple Juice concentrate to raise the gravity and boost the flavor. This formulation will be similar to commercial Hard Cider. Slightly sweet and crisp with 6 1/2% alcohol.

Forrest