$20 Bomber

[hops99]

I got my shipment of Three Floyds Behemoth Barleywine last week, and the Ohio state minimum retail is $19.99 (same as last year). I've had the beer, and think it's tasty as hell, but at what point does a 22 oz. bottle of beer become too expensive?

Thoughts?

[D0nc0smic]

that is pretty ridiculous, though at the same time i have paid $9.99 for a 12 ounce bottle of DFH world wide stout a few times

[fretlessman71]

La Folie goes for $18 per 750ml bottle. It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it, no?

[hops99]

It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it, no?

...and therein lies the question. Who is willing to pay $20 for a bomber, and who is not, and why?

[dparsons]

Well, you can't drink money. Why not exchange it for beer?

Lots of people pay $15-$20 for a bottle of wine.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by dparsons

Lots of people pay $15-$20 for a bottle of wine.

or more.

[Jake]

Originally posted by dparsons
Well, you can't drink money. Why not exchange it for beer?

Lots of people pay $15-$20 for a bottle of wine.

I paid $16 for a 755ml bottle of Chimay, but that was a Christmas Day treat. I would not pay that much for beer every week. The purchase was made easier because we were buying a 750ml bottle of wine for $22. I liked the beer better than the wine.

[Dry County Paul]

I drink beer instead of wine because you can buy outstanding beers for the same price of mediocre wine. So, 20 bucks does get into the steep range for me. 15 bucks for a sixer is a splurge.

I must confess I do occasionally drink wine, and my wine tastes are probably what a wine drinker would consider the equivalent of BMC. Or worse.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
I got my shipment of Three Floyds Behemoth Barleywine last week, and the Ohio state minimum retail is $19.99 (same as last year). I've had the beer, and think it's tasty as hell, but at what point does a 22 oz. bottle of beer become too expensive?


When people stop paying for it.

I was happy when 3F first entered the Rhode Island market, but most of their beers were overpriced compared to other craft beers on the shelf of, imo, equal quality and taste. I was in the minority on that one, so.....

Prices are only going to go up for the most part.
I have no issue with paying $$ for good beer.
But brewers would be wise to think about the price increases and how they explain them to those that will inevitably ask why.
I've read many reasons - from the price of raw goods/energy/labor to "brewers need to make a living" to "people pay it for wine, why not beer?" (improving the image of beer).

All have some merit, but the latter will be the toughest to make people swallow, imo.

Cheers!

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by Jake
I paid $16 for a 755ml bottle of Chimay, but that was a Christmas Day treat. I would not pay that much for beer every week. The purchase was made easier because we were buying a 750ml bottle of wine for $22. I liked the beer better than the wine.

What kind of Chimay sells for that much? That's twice what the blue costs here, and I thought we were being robbed.
I don't mind paying good money for a beer I know and love, but $20 for a bomber of beer I've never tried would be hard to do.
I think brewers whould be able to make a decent living, and I realize that costs for raw materials are going up, but I'd be pissed to find out that a brewery was raising prices to create snob appeal. I routinely buy $20 bottles of wine if I like it, but I won't spend $40, 50 or 100 because someone decides a wine has snob appeal, so I wouldn't buy beer for that reason either.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by corkybstewart

I don't mind paying good money for a beer I know and love, but $20 for a bomber of beer I've never tried would be hard to do.


Aye, there's the rub. There are probably a very few beers that I'd lay down that kind of money for but I doubt I'd take a flyer on something I didn't know. I've been burned by too many "new and interesting" beers or limited editions, or some other nonesense that turn out to be just average at best.

When you get to the strength and complexity of some barleywines, which are operating in the same abv zone as wine, I can understand a higher cost. Besides how many 22oz bottles of 12%+ beer is one really going to drink?

I think the DFH WWS, 120 and the like are great beers but I might buy one of each a year, if that. Calendar year 2006 I bought exactly one 120 minute and that was at the brewpub in Rehobeth.

The most I routinely spend would be $3-4/bottle of some German or Belgian imports. Around $11 for certain sixers, Anchor Christmas for example.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Prices are only going to go up for the most part.
I have no issue with paying $$ for good beer.
But brewers would be wise to think about the price increases and how they explain them to those that will inevitably ask why.
I've read many reasons - from the price of raw goods/energy/labor to "brewers need to make a living" to "people pay it for wine, why not beer?" (improving the image of beer).


I think all of this is true. I know craft brewers have been trying to reposition craft beer's image as higher end.

I don't mind paying for decent beer. And on occasion I have been known to make impulse purchases for expensive bottles of brew I know nothing about. (I've been burned before too.) Price is less of an issue for me as trying new things that show up on the shelves.

Hops99, Tell us more about the pricing mandates by the state of Ohio. I find that a little ominous. If they mandate such a high price how are you as a merchant supposed to price the beer to allow yourself to even make a profit?

[hops99]

Hops99, Tell us more about the pricing mandates by the state of Ohio.

Ohio law sets a "state minimum" price for beer and wine. There is a minimum markup/gross margin that a retailer must charge (it's less for beer, and more for wine). A retailer can certainly charge more than the state minimum, but it would be illegal to charge less.

The breweries know this, and will set their prices with the distributor accordingly, so I imagine that 3F Behemoth is comparably priced in other states. Indiana, for example, has no state minimum, and yet I've found (at least in the Fort Wayne market) that the prices are significantly higher across the board compared to Ohio.

It's all a wonderful example of our tax dollars at work....

[surfadelic23]

I spent $30 on a bottle of DeuS (Brut Des Flandres)... A bit more volume than a bomber , true. But, it was for a special occasion...

By the way, a killer brew!

[n0rmann]

When I consider beer costs, I look at what I'll spend for wine, and the quality of what I'm getting.

For $20 a bomber, you're, presumably, getting a top of the line of it's style beers available in the world.

When you buy a $20 bottle of wine, which is 3.6 ounces more, you're getting, more than likely an average bottle of wine.

Taking the quality into consideration, it's a great bargain compared to wine.

This is not a rip on wine, I love wines, but for top quality, some of the best wines in the world, you could easily reach into the hundreds of dollars.

[n0rmann]

When I consider beer costs, I look at what I'll spend for wine, and the quality of what I'm getting.

For $20 a bomber, you're, presumably, getting a top of the line of it's style beers available in the world.

When you buy a $20 bottle of wine, which is 3.6 ounces more, you're getting, more than likely an average bottle of wine.

Taking the quality into consideration, it's a great bargain compared to wine.

This is not a rip on wine, I love wines, but for top quality, some of the best wines in the world, you could easily reach into the hundreds of dollars.

[Jake]

I had three beers and already seeing double. My screen shows two of the same post from nOrmnn.

[n0rmann]

I just thought my point was so good, I should emphasize it with a double post.

[Jake]

:D Good I won't have to check the ABV on those three beers.

[dparsons]

As a balance point to my previous post, an 11 oz bottle of Westmalle Tripel is $4.50. Thats $9 for 22 oz and the quality and alcohol content should be comparable. Perhaps you can argue something about the cost of the hops in the 3F.

[corkybstewart]

Excellent point dp, about the only beer better than the tripel is their dubbel IMHO.

[Jake]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by corkybstewart
[B]What kind of Chimay sells for that much? That's twice what the blue costs here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was Chimay Grande Reserve. I bought it at a tourist trap place while doing a weekend getaway.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by hops99
Ohio law sets a "state minimum" price for beer and wine. There is a minimum markup/gross margin that a retailer must charge (it's less for beer, and more for wine). A retailer can certainly charge more than the state minimum, but it would be illegal to charge less.

The breweries know this, and will set their prices with the distributor accordingly, so I imagine that 3F Behemoth is comparably priced in other states. Indiana, for example, has no state minimum, and yet I've found (at least in the Fort Wayne market) that the prices are significantly higher across the board compared to Ohio.

It's all a wonderful example of our tax dollars at work....

Hmmmm..........

I wonder how Pennsylvania would handle beers of this ilk. Since from a distributor beer must be purchased by the case. Does anyone know if a "case" in PA must contain 24 beers? These bomber bottles usually come in cases of smaller quantities. But I'm betting that not many are willing to shell out a couple hundred per case.

I'd like to see some of the laws in each state change. I think the three tier system in place in many states has recently and successfully been challenged by places like Costco. It is the distribution system in Illinois that has Larry Bell pulling his beers out of the state.

I'm not certain I like that Ohio law but on the other hand I don't think I would like to see federal law regulate or control alcohol sales anymore that it already does. So I guess we are stuck with the lesser of two evils. The state government rather than federal.

[Dry County Paul]

It seems to me you could simply do away with distributors, and go with wholesalers and retailers like just about everything else. It might also be a nice idea to eliminate liquor license quotas. Just far too much rent seeking behavior in the alcohol business.

[sundontlie]

$30 bomber of Deus Brut in a store
$30 10oz Westvleteren Blue Cap in a bar
$40 bomber of Panil Bariquee in a bar
$40 bomber of Cantillon Fou Foune in a bar

i'm also about to buy some of the Sam Adams Utopias in a beer store for $115 each. the beer store cant sell them and is willing to dump them on me nearly for cost. You can re-sell them immediately on e-bay for double that price.. i'll probably pick up 3 bottles and re-sell two of them. i love the stuff personally.

[chazwicke]

I have 2 or 3 bottles of prior years Utopias. Never sampled it though.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Dry County Paul
It seems to me you could simply do away with distributors, and go with wholesalers and retailers like just about everything else. It might also be a nice idea to eliminate liquor license quotas. Just far too much rent seeking behavior in the alcohol business.

Distributors have strong lobbiests working for them to protect their turf. The original three tier system was set up after Prohibition ended if I recall correctly.

[Dry County Paul]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Distributors have strong lobbiests working for them to protect their turf. The original three tier system was set up after Prohibition ended if I recall correctly.

No doubt. Their business has no reason to exist other than to extract rents--it profits off a government regulation. But here's another view. It's actually kind of funny:

http://www.nbwa.org/Nbwa/Industry/American_Beer_Distribution.htm

[MeridianFC]

Why does that remind me of this:

Mugatu: [hypnotizing Derek] Hi Derek! My name's Little Cletus and I'm here to tell you a few things about child labor laws, ok? They're silly and outdated. Why back in the 30s, children as young as five could work as they pleased; from textile factories to iron smelts. Yippee! Hurray!

[Jake]

From the article of Dry County Paul post:

The Supreme Court May 2005 Granholm vs Heald makes me wonder if that has something to do with Michigan. Our governor last name is Granholm. I remember reading a few years ago something about wine from Michigan was being blocked from being sold to individuals in California by direct shippment from the Michigan wineries. Or was it the other way around? The bottom line is wine makers from one state did not like competition from wine makers from another state.

[GoodGrief]

Obviously, a bomber is too expensive for any given person when they are unwilling to pay for it. But I guess that is too obvious and the question is "do you feel $20 is too much to pay for a bomber and if not, what would be?"

I'm sure I have a cutoff for how much I'm willing to pay for a bottle of beer. I'm not sure what it is...but it's more than $20/bomber.

That being said, I'm not going to plunk down $20 for a bomber unless I really want a beer. For me, the beer would have to have some sort of "mystique" by either being exceedingly rare, exceedingly highly rated (probably both)...like Dark Lord, Westy 12 or something of a similar ilk.

My friend had a couple bottles of Behemoth and offered me one for the $20 he paid for it. But, he didn't even rate it that high, it's ratings on beer sites don't seem that high and there doesn't seem to be any particular buzz about the beer.

I'm not quite at the point where I'll pay that price just because I haven't had it yet. There's plenty of other fish in the sea (as far as trying new beers goes).

[Dry County Paul]

Originally posted by Jake
From the article of Dry County Paul post:

The Supreme Court May 2005 Granholm vs Heald makes me wonder if that has something to do with Michigan. Our governor last name is Granholm. I remember reading a few years ago something about wine from Michigan was being blocked from being sold to individuals in California by direct shippment from the Michigan wineries. Or was it the other way around? The bottom line is wine makers from one state did not like competition from wine makers from another state.

As I understand it, most winemakers want to be able to ship their wine directly to consumers through the country. Distributors however, don't want to be cut out of the action. I believe the SC decision indicated that states cannot either prohibit or allow mail-order wine, but they cannot favor their own wine and exclude wine from other states.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Dry County Paul
It seems to me you could simply do away with distributors, and go with wholesalers and retailers like just about everything else.

How would a beer "wholesaler" differ from today's beer distributor? In many industries, wholesalers are still given some sort of exclusive distribution area by the manufacturer.

Those who'd like to end the 3-tier system are big, national or regional grocers or retailers who'd like to buy beer from the brewery and self-distribute to their own stores OR wineries and breweries that would like to sell direct to the consumer (which is allowed in some states but is usually not allowed across state lines). A number of brewers "self-distribute" in the home territory (depending on state law) but are still going to depend on "distributors/wholesaler" outside the immediate area.

[Dry County Paul]

Originally posted by jesskidden
How would a beer "wholesaler" differ from today's beer distributor? In many industries, wholesalers are still given some sort of exclusive distribution area by the manufacturer.

Those who'd like to end the 3-tier system are big, national or regional grocers or retailers who'd like to buy beer from the brewery and self-distribute to their own stores OR wineries and breweries that would like to sell direct to the consumer (which is allowed in some states but is usually not allowed across state lines). A number of brewers "self-distribute" in the home territory (depending on state law) but are still going to depend on "distributors/wholesaler" outside the immediate area.

The difference would be that retailers would not be locked in with distributors whole control what can be bought and sold and who can enter the market. The three tier system in many states amounts to a legally sanctioned monopoly or oligopoly. Some states are obviously better than others at ensuring customer choice and providing for market based competition.

[chazwicke]

Hey Jess, I like the Krugar avatar. Are you a breweriana collector? If so are you attending the Blue Gray breweriana show next week?

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by Dry County Paul
The difference would be that retailers would not be locked in with distributors whole control what can be bought and sold and who can enter the market.

Well, I don't know that changing from "distributors" to "wholesalers" would necessarily do that- it would take changing a lot of individual state laws, as well.

I suspect that, as many complaints that craft brewers have with distributors (especially now that that segment of the industry is also continually shrinking and consolidating and is dominated by companies tied to and dependent on the Big 3), they much prefer dealing with one company in any given geographical area, rather than having several companies offering their brand to retailers, with the brewer having little or no control over their own product. Granted, that's with an ideal, caring distributor.

Bell's leaving the Chicago market, the current classic example of craft vs. distributor, was based on not wanting to be forced to use a distributor not of his choosing. I don't think he'd move back in if ANY company or companies could distribute any or all of his brands in Illinois, without any relationship/agreement with the brewer.

One thing I read recently that applies is the concept that the state laws regarding distributors right were written in an era when the distributor was the "little guy", needing protection from the large brewers. The case is often reversed today, with a tiny, out-of-state brewer at the mercy of a big multi-brand distributorship (often with an even larger parent company). I'm not so sure that total deregulation would necessarily benefit craft beers or the consumers of those beers.

[jesskidden]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Hey Jess, I like the Krugar avatar. Are you a breweriana collector?

Used to be, back in the 70's-80's. I've been getting my feet wet again lately, but sticker shock on some items is a bit off-putting.

Originally posted by chazwicke
If so are you attending the Blue Gray breweriana show next week?

Actually, seeing that list of beers on the website for that show is what spurred me to go to a few local shows lately and was real happy to see some great NJ beers available- oh, and even happier to drink them, too.

I'll have to pass this year for financial reasons on B&G but even if I don't jump back into collectingwholeheartedly, I can imagine that that show STILL might be worth the admission price.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Dry County Paul
No doubt. Their business has no reason to exist other than to extract rents--it profits off a government regulation. But here's another view. It's actually kind of funny:

http://www.nbwa.org/Nbwa/Industry/American_Beer_Distribution.htm

I should think an open (less regulated) market would decide whether the middleman gives value or not. Costco does have great prices, but their selection is lacking.

[corkybstewart]

You can do away with the middleman, no problem, but you can't do away with the functions of the midleman. Someone still has to provide storage and distribution for the beer. It wouldn't be a very fficient system if every brewery had to maintain it's own fleet of trucks and regional warehouses. Beer would go back to being a local product. That's would be great if you lived in an area full of good breweries, but terrible for people like me in the hinterlands. So as much as we sometimes curse the distributors, they do provide a necessary service.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by jesskidden

I'll have to pass this year for financial reasons on B&G but even if I don't jump back into collectingwholeheartedly, I can imagine that that show STILL might be worth the admission price.

Well hope you decide to get back into collecting full time and make it down to the Blue Gray next year. I visited with several brewers yesterday and will see more on Monday. All are bringing beer. The list, so far, for this year is pretty awesome. Lots of beer from outside of our region as well as most of the locals are contributing.

[Randybo]

The way i understand the deal on wine was that certain states had laws and regulations on the books that would not allow certain areas to ship wines at all. while i was in Texas the local wineries were not allowed to ship wines at all they had to be sold at the winery only.