Dunkel availability

[MeridianFC]

I was just curious what German Dunkles (not Dunkleweizens or Bocks) people have found Stateside. The only one's I've been able to locate are:

Ayinger Altbayrische Dunkel (a favorite for years)
Klosterbrauerei Ettal Dunkel (just got it)

I've started hearing about Allgauer who make an Urbayrisch Dunkel but haven't seen it yet. Aktienbrauerei Kaufbeuren have a Frundsberg Dunkel listed but I've only found the Hell and Doppelbock (the Hell is excellent). Weihenstephan Tradition is their Dunkel but I've never seen that though I've encountered almost every other one of their products (edit - their importer's site doesn't have it listed as an available product).

Years ago Hacker-Pschorr brought their Dunkel in though only in draft form, but it seems like Paulaner North America is not bringing in the Dunkel for either of their brands. I don't think Spaten make a Dunkel (the Dark here is the Maximator Doppelbock).

The Augustiner sold as Dark here is actually their Maximator Doppelbock. I don't count Kostritzer Schwarzbier and the like as Dunkel, they're really a different category of dark (with a little "d") brew.

So any sighgtings out there?

[brrman]

Doesn;t Warsteiner make a dunkel? Or does that count... :)

[ClockworkOrange]

Here's a few listed on The Beer Yard website:
http://www.beeryard.com/beer/default.cfm?sort=&filter=BT%7C18&srch=
You can email them regarding availability.
Hope that was helpful.

[steveh]

Dinkel-Acker makes a Dunkel that I equate to an Optimator (Spaten's Doppelbock, Maximator is Augustiner's) "light." In other words, it has the same malty character without the ABV kick.

I sure wish we could get the Hofbrauhaus Dunkel over here.

S.

Warsteiner dark counts as much as Becks & Heineken dark!

[newportstorm]

Gosser Dark from Austria is available in some markets.

Prost!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh
I sure wish we could get the Hofbrauhaus Dunkel over here.





Oh but we can! I enjoyed at least two litres of it at HBH Las Vegas two weeks ago. ;)

It was delectable. The HBH in Newport, Kentucky is a brewpub. I don't recall if they import HB brews or just serve their own. I enjoyed my visit there a couple of years ago but don't recall the beers. I do remember having a nice dinner there. I'm waiting for the Pittsburgh HBH to be finished. That, Church Brew Works, and Penn Brewery will make Pitt a worthy destination for a weekend trip.

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Oh but we can! I enjoyed at least two litres of it at HBH Las Vegas two weeks ago.

That's your interpretatin of the pronoun - I'm nowhere near a HBH here in Northern Illinois. :(

I'm only askin' for some .5l bottles -- anyone? Anyone?

S.

[chazwicke]

http://www.hofbrauhauslasvegas.com/

http://www.hofbrauhausnewport.com/

Development News

August 16, 2006
SouthSide Works set to be third Stateside location for Hofbräuhaus
The popular German beer hall Hofbräuhaus will open at SouthSide Works in October 2007. Hofbräuhaus inked the deal during a lease-signing ceremony on July 28.

The Munich-based establishment will occupy a 17,000-square foot riverfront site near the Hot Metal bridge and The Cheesecake Factory.

“The Soffer Organization is very excited to add Hofbräuhaus to its tenant mix. It is a unique restaurant and entertainment venue that is perfect for not only the SouthSide Works, but the City of Pittsburgh,” says R. Damian Soffer, president/CEO of Soffer Organization.

Pittsburgh’s Hofbräuhaus joins Las Vegas, NV and Newport, KY as one of only three U.S. locations. The restaurant will be operated by an investment group led by Nick Ellison, who operates Newport’s location. “We are proud to join in a rich brewing tradition in Pittsburgh," Ellison said.

In keeping with its long history, the well-loved Hofbräuhaus features Bavarian beers brewed on site, traditionally decorated rooms and German and American fare. The venue will include a 600-seat Bier Hall, 400-seat Biergarten and dining room.

A visiting brew master from Munich will oversee the production of beers, such as lager, weizen, dunkel, pilsner and marzen. Menu items include pretzels and bier cheese, kartoffelpfannkuchen (potato pancakes), sauerkraut balls, and fritierte gurken (fried pickles).

The first Hofbräuhaus brew was crafted 500 years ago, when Wilhelm V., Duke of Bavaria became dissatisfied with beer in Munich, and in 1589, recruited master brewer Heimeran Pongraz, of the Geisenfeld Monastery, to develop the first “brown.” Hofbräuhaus was born at “Alter Hof” (Old Court) in 1592. Munich’s sprawling Hofbräuhaus am Platzl was completed in 1897.

Writer: Jennifer Baron
Source: Pamelyn McMahon and Jill Stroh, Soffer Organization

Image courtesy of Soffer Organization

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh

I'm only askin' for some .5l bottles -- anyone? Anyone?

S.

I hear ya. And I feel your pain.

[MeridianFC]

Forgot about the Hofbräuhaus. I had the Dunkel in LV last year and it was delicious. While Dinkel-Acker is technically not from the correct Staat (Baden-Württemberg v. Bayern) for Dunkel, the stuff we get here is brewed by Spaten so maybe I'll give it a go. The Warstiner (and St. Pauli Girl) aren't really in the same style category as far as I'm concerned.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
the stuff we get here is brewed by Spaten

Yup. As is the D-A Pils.

S.

[brrman]

I've been to the Hofbrauhaus in Cincinnati (Newport, KY). The dunkel there was frikkin awesome. Not to mention the awesome atmosphere.

[Jinja]

We can get Weltenburger Dunkel here in the San Francisco Bay Area. There is a pizza place 2 blocks from us that has it on tap (which seems very random, don't you think?) and a German store in the next town over that carries the Dunkel as well as their other beers in bottles.

We also used to enjoy the Gordon Biersch Dunkel at the original location in Palo Alto, but GB stopped brewing the Dunkel and replaced it with a Schwarzbier.

Jinja Out

[MichaelM]

Originally posted by brrman
I've been to the Hofbrauhaus in Cincinnati (Newport, KY). The dunkel there was frikkin awesome. Not to mention the awesome atmosphere.

I didnt even know we had one so close buy being in southern Ohio myself.... Hrmmm sounds like a dinner trip to talk a few friends into

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Jinja

We also used to enjoy the Gordon Biersch Dunkel at the original location in Palo Alto, but GB stopped brewing the Dunkel and replaced it with a Schwarzbier.

Jinja Out

I didn't cotton much to the GB Dunkel when it was available. It just seemed dark and nothing much else. The Schwarzbier, at least as it's brewed here, is outstanding. It's not exactly in the style of Dunkel, or even the proper German Schwarzbiers I've had, but it is easily one of my favorite beers (period). In some ways it functions like a Dunkel (session-y, full body) but doesn quite have the spiciness and most Dunkels are actually dark red/brown not full black like the GB Schwarz.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by MichaelM
I didnt even know we had one so close buy being in southern Ohio myself.... Hrmmm sounds like a dinner trip to talk a few friends into

Well worth it.

[brrman]

Originally posted by MichaelM
I didnt even know we had one so close buy being in southern Ohio myself.... Hrmmm sounds like a dinner trip to talk a few friends into

It was the first one to open in the US. Always a great time there. You can get up and dance on the tables to some good polka! LOL

[MichaelM]

how trendy/expensive is the place?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by MichaelM
how trendy/expensive is the place?

http://www.hofbrauhausnewport.com/menu.html

[MeridianFC]

Chaz, or anyone else, how would you compare the Las Vegas (imported) to the Kentucky (domestic) Hofbräuhau brews?

[chazwicke]

To be honest, I don't recall the brews at Newport. I had a few litres and dinner there. My old avatar with the litre mug in my face was taken there. But I've been to the LV branch several times and yes have danced on the table there too. I love the fresh German Original but the Dunkels is superb. They had a bock at 8% there a few weeks ago and I did not even try it because I was enjoying my dunkels. I'd love to get back to the one in Newport again sometime. My recollections of that place were basically of the whole experience, ambiance, food, and beer and that memory is good but I gotta say I love the Vegas HB. I'll even choose it over some of the Vegas brewpubs. And I've been to the one in Munchen as well. A couple of times. Had a memorable evening there where I drank 8 litres. My buddies drank 11!!! I literally could hold no more and left eventually finding our hotel across town. They arrived much later and were hurtin' pups the next day. The whole night is a long story one one which I will always remember albeit blearily.

[MeridianFC]

FWIW I got a very nice (and quick) response back from Total Beverage Solutions, the importers of Weihenstephan, that the Tradition (Dunkel) is available in my area. They're going to send me the names of some stores that carry it. I'm thinking of putting togehter a little home tasting with all the Dunkels I can get a hold of.

This weekend I had a bottle each of the Ayinger and Ettal. The Ayinger was every bit the beer I remember. It's a hearty amber, very red in fact, with full malty nose, full bodied, and nice toffee-ish tast. Bursting with that melanoidin malt flavor. It's just a great beer. The Ettal was a full measure darker, though definitely in the amber family and a bit more heavy in body. There's a bit more edge, though I think it may come from the yeast and not so much the hops, which are so far in the background of both these brews as to be barely noticable.

I think Dunkel best encapsulates the Munich/Bavarian flavor.

I think I'd do a two parter one now and a Helles/Keller when it warms up:

Dunkel
Weihenstephan Tradition
Kulmbacher Kloster Schwarz-bier
DAB Traditional
Allgaeuer Urbayrisch Dunkel
Weltenburger Kloster Barock Dunkel
Aktienbrauerei Kaufbeuren Frundsberg Dunkel
Hofbrau Dark
Monchsof Schwarzbier
Ayinger Altbayrische Dunkel
Klosterbrauerei Ettal Dunkel


Helles/Keller
Weihenstephan Original
Allgauer Bayrisch Hell
Aktienbrauerei Kaufbeuren Hell
Aktienbrauerei Kaufbeuren Premium Edel
Aktienbrauerei Kaufbeuren Holzhausener Landbier
Aktienbrauerei KaufbeurenTanzelfest
Will-Brau Hell
Bischofshof Original 1649
Bischofshof Urhell
Ayinger Jahrhundert
Mahrs Hell
Mahrs Ungespundet Lager
Klosterbrauerei Ettal Helles
St. Georgenbraeu Kellerbier
Augustiner
Paulaner
Spaten
Hofbrau
Hacker-Pschorr

Are there any domestic bottled that would stand up to this competition. Steve's mentioned Capital on many occasions so I'll have to give that a go.

[hops99]

Are there any domestic bottled that would stand up to this competition. Steve's mentioned Capital on many occasions so I'll have to give that a go.

Don't forget the Penn brewery in Pittsburgh. Penn Dark is regarded as one of the the best Dunkels in the world (according to Michael Jackson, for starters). It is a terrific beer.

[chazwicke]

Yes! Thanks for reminding me of that one. Penn Brewery is often overlooked when many of us speak of the PA brewery scene. They make fine brews.

[MeridianFC]

I'm ashamed to admit but I've never had any of the Penn products and they look like they're right up my alley. I've read several discussion of the Penn Pilsner here, how do they other beers stack up? How close to their German antecedants are they?

Chaz, do you know anywhere around here that stocks them? I don' think I've ever seen them downtown.

[chazwicke]

I've visited the brewery and had their beers at festivals in PA. (Mainly Stoudt's fests.) However from time to time my wife's uncle who lives in Pittsburgh visits and he usually brings me a case. I tell you, Once they get that Hofbrau Haus opened this year, Pitt will become a worthy destination for a weekend beer trip. Church Brew Works, Penn and HB! I can't recall if I've seen Penn beers here in years I'm sorry to say. I often overlook them when I'm thinking PA brewers because so many are concentrated in Central and Eastern PA. Troegs, Victory, Sly Fox and others. The other thing I remember from my visit to the Penn pub was the excellent liverwurst sandwich I had there.

[The Alchemist]

I hate to always seem like I am jumping on the Penn bandwagon, but they make excellent interpretations of the German styles of beer. I have been going to their brewery since 1990 and while I won't say that every thing they make is as good as the best German example, I believe they come very close for the domestic scene. They make a great hefeweizen and maerzen, also. Their St. Nikolaus bock is very tasty and they make a great maibock. Unfortunately, I don't think they market themselves particularly well. They stay under the radar so to speak and often it is difficult to get some of their best beers(like the maibock) for any length of time.
I will be visiting the Hofbrauhaus in Newport next week while I am at a conference. I look forward to the experience.

[hops99]

I think the Penn Brewery is great. I've been there four or five times, and on each visit the food was outstanding (best German food I've had in the states, I think), especially the Sauerbraten. The atmosphere, both inside and out is also top-notch - it's located in an old restored brewery on a hill overlooking the Heinz plant and downtown. Was there once for their beer festival, the first Saturday in June, and thought that was great as well (about 30 breweries from Pennsylvania, Ohio, and a few points East).

As for the beers, I'd place them on a level with Capital (if not maybe a skosh ahead for the stand-by brews, although Capital seems to be more adventurous) as the best German-style beers in the U.S. - The Pilsner, Dark, Hefe, St. Nicholas Bock, and Okto are all first-class.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC


Dunkel
Kulmbacher Kloster Schwarz-bier
DAB Traditional
Monchsof Schwarzbier

Schwarzbier is a different style than Dunkel -- and DAB? Might as well just get Beck's or Heineken Dark.

I would have mentioned Capital previously in this thread, but it's not readily available nationwide.

S.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by Jinja
We can get Weltenburger Dunkel here in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Now we're talking... Most likely it's the contract brewed version by Bischofshof Regensburg though. The REAL Weltenburger beer is pretty hard to come by even here, the mostly brew that for consumption in their own restaurant and beer garden.

One of my favourite summer trips, walking from Kelheim to Weltenburg (about an hour), setting across the river with a "zille" (a tiny boat), have a few in the beer garden there and then walk back. Depending on how much you've had you'll be just sober enough when you reach Kelheim again in order to drive home. Or stop by the Frischeisen beergarden. Or stop by the Scheider place in Essing.

I'm getting thirsty :D

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
Schwarzbier is a different style than Dunkel -- and DAB? Might as well just get Beck's or Heineken Dark.

I would have mentioned Capital previously in this thread, but it's not readily available nationwide.

S.

There are a few beers titled "Schwarzbier" that are apparently actually Dunkles, whch I believe the Kulmbacher is one. The DAB is just for a lower end reference. Heineken Dark, while not great, is also not terrible. Well the last time I had it many moons ago.

I might have to work out a trade with you to get some Capital for the tasting. I'm trying to acquire some Penn Dark as we speak.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
There are a few beers titled "Schwarzbier" that are apparently actually Dunkles, whch I believe the Kulmbacher is one.

Hmmm....

S.

[MeridianFC]

Well the BJCP says Kulmbacher is a Schwarzbier distinct from the Munich Dunkel but in other places I've seen it down as a Dunkel and some of the reviews (BA) make it seem like it skirting both territories. What the hell, I'll get it and decide for myself.

No don't try to stop me, I'm willing to take this one for the team. :D

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
No don't try to stop me, I'm willing to take this one for the team.

What a guy, what a guy! :D

S.

[staronstage]

Mmmm Weltenburger Dunkle.

I've seen the word spelled "Dunkles", is this the same thing as a "Dunkle"? And what is the correct pronunciation? DUNK-less? dunk-LEES? Yabba-dabba-dunkies?

(no I'm not drinking at the moment :D )

[MeridianFC]

It's spelled both ways.

It's pronounced DUNK-uhl or DUNK-uhlz

[steveh]

Dunk - LEES?

S.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by staronstage
Mmmm Weltenburger Dunkle.

I've seen the word spelled "Dunkles", is this the same thing as a "Dunkle"? And what is the correct pronunciation? DUNK-less? dunk-LEES? Yabba-dabba-dunkies?

(no I'm not drinking at the moment )

In order to explain all these forms of the same word you'd have to do a long and lonely walk through the Valley of german grammar, hehehe.

When you talk about one particular beer or a bottle of it you say just "Dunkel" though.

So, it's "Das Weltenburger Dunkel" (the Weltenburger Dunkel) but "Ich trinke ein dunkles Bier" (I'm having a dunkles beer).

As for pronouciation, the german "u" is pretty much pronouced like an english "oo" so it's

doonk'l

The "e" is almost silent and there's emphasis on the "n".

Hope that makes sense :)

[steveh]

So... Dunkel is a noun, dunkles is an adjective? That makes sense.

S.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by steveh
So... Dunkel is a noun, dunkles is an adjective? That makes sense.

S.

"Das Dunkel" is a noun, referring to beer only usually. Just "dunkel" is an adjective and means dark.

"Dunkles" is actually the adjective (neutral form as Bier is neutral in german) because the correct german sentence would be "Ich trinke ein dunkles Bier" (I'm drinking a dark beer). Over the centuries it was shortened to just "Ich trinke ein Dunkles" since everyone knew it referred to beer anyways.

If beer was male in german it would be "Ich trinke ein dunkler Bier", if it was female it'd be "Ich trinke eine dunkle Bier". Both will be understood over here but smirked at.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
Both will be understood over here but smirked at.

I've often said I can carry on the best conversation in German...with a 5 year old German. ;)

S.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by steveh
I've often said I can carry on the best conversation in German...with a 5 year old German. ;)

S.

Hehehehe. Well, so far I'm sure you managed to get your beer, at least most of the time.

[MeridianFC]

I've found that the Germans, in general, are amongst the most tolerant of travellers butchering their language of anyone on this green globe. I've had many great conversations, well great for me not so sure for the other folks involved, with German folks with lots of patient guiding as I destroy whole cases, verb endings, and compound words. I've felt that the German people really appreciate it if you at least make an effort and are downright ecstatic if you put some work into it. I once crowbarred "verfremdungseffekt" into a conversation and though I'd be awarded a medal for sheer lexical effort.

As a side note I've never not been corrected when I make mistake over there though. They may be tolerant, but they will make sure you get it right.

[chazwicke]

Never had too much of a problem in Germany either. I do try to speak what I can. However, my wife was born in Berlin and speaks German pretty well. Her mother is German. And so on some of my travels I've had help.

This thread has made me very thirsty for a Dunkel.

[Jinja]

It's sort of a different topic, but I have had that experience with most languages I don't know very well. Usually, when I've traveled, my attempt to TRY to speak the native language is admired, even if the result itself is not that impressive!

My first time in France I was 12 or 13, with 1 1/2 years of French class in rural New York. I must have sounded like an idiot, but all of the French people I tried to talk to were extremely patient!

Jinja Out

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
As a side note I've never not been corrected when I make mistake over there though. They may be tolerant, but they will make sure you get it right.

Germans have an inborn need to teach. So since you showed the effort of learning our language we will go out of our way to help you to improve your skills. In Germany that's considered a courteous thing to do.

Looking back at this topic I guess I am a good German myself, hehehe.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Never had too much of a problem in Germany either. I do try to speak what I can. However, my wife was born in Berlin and speaks German pretty well. Her mother is German. And so on some of my travels I've had help. From personal experience I can tell that having help like that (though convenient) is a great obstacle for one's efforts to learn a language.

Originally posted by chazwicke
This thread has made me very thirsty for a Dunkel.
Me too. Good thing the wife and I are walking into town this morning to have breakfast. It's only 20 minutes walking for here to the cathedral and that means at least a trip to Kneitinger :D

*SLURP*

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by Jinja
It's sort of a different topic, but I have had that experience with most languages I don't know very well. Usually, when I've traveled, my attempt to TRY to speak the native language is admired, even if the result itself is not that impressive!

My first time in France I was 12 or 13, with 1 1/2 years of French class in rural New York. I must have sounded like an idiot, but all of the French people I tried to talk to were extremely patient!

Jinja Out

Me too with the sole exception of France. Maybe they're still holding a grudge...

[steveh]

...um, I saw six packs of HB Dunkel at the Woodman's in Kenosha, WI today! If I hadn't been picking up a six of New Glarus Coffee Stout, I probably would have snapped up a sixer.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
...um, I saw six packs of HB Dunkel at the Woodman's in Kenosha, WI today! If I hadn't been picking up a six of New Glarus Coffee Stout, I probably would have snapped up a sixer.

S.

You've got two hands don't you? ;)

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
You've got two hands don't you? ;)

I was thinking the same thing, hehehe.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
You've got two hands don't you?

And only one liver...

The sad thing is, the New Glarus was far too thin to stand up to its over-roasted quality. I was underwhelmed.

Not to mention, the HB was in green bottles. :mad:

S.

[chazwicke]

I was not only underwhelmed by my recent sampling of New Glarus Spotted Cow - I was downright put off. I just can't get by the corn in it.

I had a growler of Gordon Biersch Fest and I still have one of Maerzen.

[MeridianFC]

Someone revived a thread in another section and I found this from me from 3 years ago:

3. Kloster Andechs (Andechs, Bavaria, Germany)
To me Bavarian beer is German beer and Bavarian beer is Andechs. The cornerstone of this tradition is the Dunkel and no one makes one with such malty spiciness as the Brothers of the Andechs Monestary. If there is something more pleasing than sitting at the Andechs am Dom sipping a .5l of Dunkel on a November night, I don't no what it is. A great line of traditional Bravarian products.

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I was not only underwhelmed by my recent sampling of New Glarus Spotted Cow - I was downright put off. I just can't get by the corn in it.


It's very good on tap, much smoother and less corny. Very much like an English bitter if served at the right temp.

I'm not so sure what went wrong with the Coffee Stout, it's just too harsh.

However, the Dunkel is now in my sites.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
If there is something more pleasing than sitting at the Andechs am Dom sipping a .5l of Dunkel on a November night, I don't no what it is.

The same scenario on a July night? ;)

S.

[chazwicke]

Yes but could it beat a crisp October morning in Bamberg drinking Schlenkerla at the source?

[MeridianFC]

I've actually gotten some E-mails back from a few importers, I might be able to have a decent Dunkel tasting after all. I'll post a list of everything I can get a hold of. I have a friend visiting from England who says he can bring me a few from Beers of the World over there, including my beloved Andechs.

[staronstage]

Ooooh so thirsty!

Thank you all for the quick lesson in German. Regardless of how you say it that dark medium brown liquid is sehr gut!

[MeridianFC]

I posted a quick note about some great service from my local paint shop in the Mid Atlantic section for those in the area who care.

A lot of what I'm looking for is turning out to be not carried by the local distributor or patchy in supply from the importer.

My paint shop man, the ever knowledgable Larry, says Dunkels don't sell well. More's the pity. I've never figured out why most of the bigger brands of German brews that come in skip right over Dunkel and go to Doppelbock as next on the color meter. Strange one that.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by staronstage
Ooooh so thirsty!

Thank you all for the quick lesson in German. Regardless of how you say it that dark medium brown liquid is sehr gut!

Glad I could help :)

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I've never figured out why most of the bigger brands of German brews that come in skip right over Dunkel and go to Doppelbock as next on the color meter. Strange one that.

It just seems to be a peculiarity of taste of the average american. I've noticed that whenever I'm having guests. I try to advertise nectar of the gods like the Plank Dunkel and they skip right over it and go for a dark Weizen Doppelbock instead.

Now that MIGHT be due to someone's personal preference but my experience with a totally different (but similarly tight) scene where I'm involved much deeper than just as a hobby leads me to believe that it actually has to do with "scene points". One get's more recognition by having had a more extreme beer. Distributors being in it for money just follow market demands.

Interesting enough though, over here in Bayern, Dunkel is more of a regional thing. Regensburg is located at the edge of two rather destinct and different regions, the Jura (to the west and north west) and the Gäuboden (east and south east). Throughout the Jura Dunkel is very common and people drink it a lot while in the Gäuboden Dunkel is almost exotic. I frequently talk to brewers about that and
they tell me that they tried before doing Dunkel but people just don't want it and they can't afford brewing away from peoples taste.

[steveh]

On one of my last visits to Munich, a friend and I were enjoying Maß (Maße?) of Dunkel in the Biergarten of the Hofbrauhaus. A group of around 10 young men came in and sat at a table acrosss the way and tentatively ordered from the Fraulein. Based on their demeanor and attire, my friend and I immediately surmised that the group were fellow Americans.

The Fraulein returned to the table with a Maß of Dunkel. Yes, one Maß for the 10 gentlemen. My friend and I started to snicker a little, but we broke into all out laughter when the Maß was passed around the table, no one wanting to be the first to sample the dark brew. When they caught sound of our laughter, we raised our own Maß in toast and shouted, "Don't be afraid of the dark!"

We joined the gentleman for some banter and beer talk, learned they were college students (from Chico, CA - no less) travelling Europe and HAD to stop at the HB for something truly Bavarian.

Oh, and it turned out that the Dunkel wasn't as scary as they thought it would be and the group ended up staying for a few more.

It's back to the same story, don't knock it unless you've tried it, and the Bavarian Dunkel is one fine, smooth drinking brew!

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
they skip right over it and go for a dark Weizen Doppelbock instead.


At a festival in Wurzburg on one trip my friends and I discovered a vendor serving Dunkelweizen (not Bock or Doppelbock, just Dunkel) - we were in heaven because we hadn't had such access to this great brew on most of our trips. We either drank the vendor dry, or he'd decided we'd had enough for one evening and told us he was dry.

S.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by steveh
At a festival in Wurzburg on one trip my friends and I discovered a vendor serving Dunkelweizen (not Bock or Doppelbock, just Dunkel) - we were in heaven because we hadn't had such access to this great brew on most of our trips. We either drank the vendor dry, or he'd decided we'd had enough for one evening and told us he was dry.

S.

You're probably right and I was my usual bitter cynical self in my own negative assessment. :)

[steveh]

Originally posted by Stahlsturm
and I was my usual bitter cynical self in my own negative assessment. :)

Nah, if you read my post on the HB above, there are plenty Americans who are "afraid of the dark," but it's changing.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh


Oh, and it turned out that the Dunkel wasn't as scary as they thought it would be and the group ended up staying for a few more.



I partially blame Guinness for this, even though the big G has never been more popular over here. I think a large number of people equate anything dark with the bitter roasted taste of the dry stout. Obviously most Dunkels aren't anywhere near that taste (it's my understanding that some regional varities have a bit of coffee roasted character but none that I've had). Almost every Dunkel I've had, certainly the great ones, are very smooth, malty, not and a completely different proposition from stout. Many Dunkels are barely what we would call dark, ranging more in the deep amber space of the color spectrum.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I think a large number of people equate anything dark with the bitter roasted taste of the dry stout.

Maybe, but the fear has been prevalent for a long time -- remember the old Michelob Dark commercials with Martin Mull in the late 70s? "Dark beer isn't just for guys with thick necks named Gunther." That's where I stole the "don't be afraid of the dark" line.

(it's my understanding that some regional varities have a bit of coffee roasted character but none that I've had).

Schwarzbiers tend toward the roasty side, but as we've discussed - Schwarz and Dunkel are different styles. From BJCP: "Characterized by depth and complexity of Munich malt and the accompanying melanoidins. Rich Munich flavors, but not as intense as a bock or as roasted as a schwarzbier."

I think the old nickname for Dunkel in Bavaria was "Braunbier." Yeah, it translates just how it sounds.

S.

[steveh]

A BTW addition to the question of Dunkel brand availability; the BJCP considers Warsteiner Dunkel (SIC) and American Dark Lager -- along with Beck's and St. Pauli Girl Dark (which probably pulls DAB Dark into the group too).

What makes the ADL different from a true Munich Dunkel? Many things, but I'll start with the first sentence under aroma just to make the point: "Little to no malt aroma."

Munich Dunkel? " Rich, Munich malt sweetness, like bread crusts (and sometimes toast.)"

S.

[chazwicke]

I had a delicious Schwarzbier yesterday at GB downtown. ;)

[MeridianFC]

That beer is positively sublime.

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by steveh
I think the old nickname for Dunkel in Bavaria was "Braunbier." Yeah, it translates just how it sounds.

S.

Plank brews a brilliant Braunbier. They also brew a Dunkel, Bock, Doppelbock, Weizenbock and an Export that is a Dunkel but they praise it as a Märzen. Next time you're in Germany we should go there and figure it out. :D

[steveh]

I hate to tell you this, Plank (Road) Brewery used to be the old name of Miller Brewing...coincidence? Why are they calling a Dunkel Export beer a Märzen? :eek:

S.

[MeridianFC]

I usually don't pay overmuch attention to the BJCP style guidelines, but for a lark I was looking over it after Steve's comments and I came across this:

"Unfiltered versions from Germany can taste like liquid bread, with a yeasty, earthy richness not found in exported filtered dunkels."
-BJCP Munich Dunkel

Where in the hell do I get ahold of one of those? That sounds fantastic! Could be one of the most enticing descriptions I've heard since ""a bouquet of apricot blossoms with a note of fresh-baked bread, like fruit jam on sourdough toast." (from the NYT article describing Vendelin Lager)

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by steveh
I hate to tell you this, Plank (Road) Brewery used to be the old name of Miller Brewing...coincidence? Why are they calling a Dunkel Export beer a Märzen?

S.

I'm not worried at all, hehehe. I have no clue why they call that beer that way. I was always too busy drinking it to bother to ask :D

[MeridianFC]

So in my quest so far I've nabbed:

Ayinger Altbairisch Dunkel
Allgäuer Urbairisch Dunkel
Ettaler Kloster Dunkel
Dinkel Acker Dark (brewed by Spaten. Not listed as available in Germany?)
Einbecker Schwarzbier (not a Dunkel but got it anyway)

My paint shop man is attempting to acquire the Weltenburger Barock Dunkel and the Weihenstephan Tradition. Locally I know I can get the Penn Dark and Hobrau Dark. The Harpoon Munich Type Dark Beer was recommended to me (anyone in the Boston area willing to work a trade?).

And while I was out I picked up some other non Dunkel:

Mahr's Ungespundet-hefetrüb
Weltenburger Kloster Asam-Bock

[Stahlsturm]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
The Harpoon Munich Type Dark Beer was recommended to me (anyone in the Boston area willing to work a trade?).

I've had that on my last New England trip. Several sixers in fact :D It's a pretty decent version of the style.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Dinkel Acker Dark (brewed by Spaten. Not listed as available in Germany?)

Hmm? I'm pretty sure I had some on my last trip to Germany/Stuttgart - of course it probably wasn't brewed by Spaten, I think they contract all of D-A's exports.

S.

(Maybe not, looking at the D-A website...then again, it's been over 10 years since I was in Germany :( )

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
Hmm? I'm pretty sure I had some on my last trip to Germany/Stuttgart - of course it probably wasn't brewed by Spaten, I think they contract all of D-A's exports.

S.

(Maybe not, looking at the D-A website...then again, it's been over 10 years since I was in Germany :( )

All of the bottles of DA I've seen for several years have the Made By Spaten bit on 'em. I'd not seen the DA Dark anywhere till the other day though. So it's technically the wrong Landstaat, but close enough regionally. Being brewed by Spaten only moves it closer to what I'm after.

I do have the Einbeck too, which is way out of region and style, but their beers have always been very malty so what the hey.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
All of the bottles of DA I've seen for several years have the Made By Spaten bit on 'em.

On this side of the ocean, right? I'm pretty sure D-A bottles for the locals on its own and set up a deal with Spaten for export. Maybe some of the marketing folks (at one, the other, or both breweries) thought a Dunkel would be a good sell over here? Be fun to know the story.

Also of interest is the Spaten Germany site that only lists The Munich Helles, Pils, Oktoberfest, Diat Pils, and Alkoholfrei - no Maibock or Optimator?

Maybe the 2 bocks truly are seasonal these days whereas the Okto is year-round? Or maybe the web site needs updating?

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
On this side of the ocean, right?

Also of interest is the Spaten Germany site that only lists The Munich Helles, Pils, Oktoberfest, Diat Pils, and Alkoholfrei - no Maibock or Optimator?


S.

Yes just over here (as far as I know).

The site doesn't list the Spaten Ludwig Thoma Dunkel either which several, including Jackson and Protz, call the classic example of the style. Some folks on BA have rated it recently so it must exist.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
The site doesn't list the Spaten Ludwig Thoma Dunkel either which several, including Jackson and Protz, call the classic example of the style. Some folks on BA have rated it recently so it must exist.

Is that the Konig Ludwig Dunkel? (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/3900/4617) It's not listed at the Spaten site because it's brewed by Kaltenberg. (http://www.kaltenberg.de/klw/koenig_ludwig.asp) Maybe the connection you're seeing is an export only by Spaten USA?

I enjoyed the Konig Ludwig Dunkel at one of the Biergartens in Munich. As I recall, it was quite nice, but didn't stand out as much as the HB Dunkel.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
Is that the Konig Ludwig Dunkel? (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/3900/4617) It's not listed at the Spaten site because it's brewed by Kaltenberg. (http://www.kaltenberg.de/klw/koenig_ludwig.asp) Maybe the connection you're seeing is an export only by Spaten USA?

I enjoyed the Konig Ludwig Dunkel at one of the Biergartens in Munich. As I recall, it was quite nice, but didn't stand out as much as the HB Dunkel.

S.

Nein mein lieber Herr.

http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/munibrew.htm

Spaten Ludwig Thoma Dunkel 5.5% 12.5º Dark lager

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaten_Brewery

Ludwig Thomas Dunkel, a classic Munich dark beer

It's also mentioned specifically in the Robert Protz book "Ultimate Encyclopedia of Beer". He calls it the perfect example of the style.

I'm familiar (in writing only unfortunately) with the Kaltenberg/Konig Ludwig since MJ mentions Kaltenberg very often.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaten_Brewery

Ludwig Thomas Dunkel, a classic Munich dark beer

It's also mentioned specifically in the Robert Protz book "Ultimate Encyclopedia of Beer". He calls it the perfect example of the style.

I'm not so sure it's still brewed, I can't find it listed at BA, and I'm sure not gonna trust Wikipedia! ;-)

Stahl?

S.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
I'm not so sure it's still brewed, I can't find it listed at BA, and I'm sure not gonna trust Wikipedia! ;-)

Stahl?

S.

Fair enough though I was just using that as back up to the first source (not counting the Protz book). I've found it on several speisekarte when doing a Google for it.

http://www.zum-bayrischen-krug.de/speisekarte.htm

http://www.kugleralm.de/fileadmin/templates_kugleralm/gfx/Speisekarte.pdf

http://www.cafeneu.de/3_3.html

http://www.gasthaus-guggemos.de/stube/pic/Karte.pdf (E2.40 for .5l !!!)

Man some of those make me hungry.

There's a mention on BA here (from 2002):

http://beeradvocate.com/news/stories_read/469

I also tried a "Ludwig Thoma Dunkel", which was actually a bottled-bier made by Lowenbrau.

So the fellow claims it's made by Lowebrau. If I'm following the menu LTD ends up on every menu that has Spaten (though some do have Lowebrau).

A mystery!

[MeridianFC]

http://www.bavarium-willingen.de/bitmaps/ludwigthoma.jpg

http://dg.travelnow.com/index.jsp?cid=1&action=viewLocation&formId=89139

"Löwenbräu is now owned by its erstwhile rival Spaten , which has the best amber and black beers - known respectively as Ur-Märzen and Ludwig-Thoma-Dunkel "

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
http://www.zum-bayrischen-krug.de/speisekarte.htm

Hmm, Pils & Dunkel? Since Spaten has its own Pils, I have to really wonder about this one. The Lowenbrau connection is interesting, as Spaten owns Lowenbrau now.

It's just funny that there's no review or even place-holder at BA. Nothing come up under a search for a brewery on one of the search engines?

S.

[steveh]

We may be getting somewhere...

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1918/6554

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/1918

Looks like a small brewery in Dachau (a short train ride from Munchen Hauptbanhoff).

The link to a web site doesn't connect.

Ah Ha! Leave it to Larry:
http://www.beerdrinkersguide.com/BDGWebsite/Mainframe.html
(you have to click on the Biergartens, scroll down to Day Trips, find Zieglerkeller Dachau)

S.

[MeridianFC]

I saw that too, but I'm starting to feel this is a Spaten product that is just not promoted at all. On one of those sites the Ludwig Thoma image links to the Spaten brewery site.

http://www.pils-doktor.de/bilder/004_wirt.jpg

That photo is from a little Spaten house (the draft shield his hard to make out but I'm sure that's it at the far left).

As you note it'd certainly be interesting to hear what Stahl might know about this.

[MeridianFC]

I decided to end the speculation and have an E-mail into Spaten. I'll let y'all know what they say.

BTW Steve have you seen this:

http://spatenusa.com/6_what_new/6_3_promotions/index.htm

May 2007!

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
BTW Steve have you seen this:

http://spatenusa.com/6_what_new/6_3_promotions/index.htm

May 2007!

Yeah, saw it - but I believe it's only on tap at select places. I haven't seen bottles in over 10 years (though I have one in my collection from an old, favorite German restaurant that closed).

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
That photo is from a little Spaten house (the draft shield his hard to make out but I'm sure that's it at the far left).

And Spaten Pils, and Franziskaner, and Spaten coasters, and a Spaten ash tray - they also have Pepsi on tap...oh m'gawd! Spaten owns Pepsi now?! ;)

Seriously, Spaten may have distribution contracts or something, I dunno, but not every tavern in Munchen is tied to one brewery. I had Budvar and Paulaner in one joint.

S.

[MeridianFC]

I got an E-mail back already, they said Ludwig Thoma is not imported to the US (they didn't say directly but that implies to me that they make it). I sent an E-mail back for clarification but I'm sure that this answers the question.

[steveh]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I(they didn't say directly but that implies to me that they make it).

It could just mean that they distribute it. They own and distribute/export Lowenbrau, but the Lowenbrau brewery is still making the beer.

S.

[chazwicke]

Had a few beers with Scott Lassiter last evening at Gordon Biersch Tysons. Enjoyed the last of one batch of Schwartz and the beginnings of the new. I think my growler full blew the last keg. Anyway there were differences in each batch. Scott used two different malt varieties. Both were wonderful and I'd be hard pressed to pick one over the oher. The firt batch was a little drier and the second had a slightly roastier nose and left a bit of sweetness at the finish. Scott sent us away with a keg of year old Maibock that he says is killer. We also picked up a keg of Allen Young's - GB VA Beach - Weizenbock and Dean Lake of Sweetwater - Sterling sent a keg of Pale Ale. Visited Vintage 50 as well but Bill Madden had not made it in from his NY trip so He will send a keg later. So Far we have over 50 kegs for the Blue Gray. Most of the Local brewers are coming down over the weekend too.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by steveh
It could just mean that they distribute it. They own and distribute/export Lowenbrau, but the Lowenbrau brewery is still making the beer.

S.

I double checked with the Protz, it's a Spaten product.

I can't find a better image (this thing seems as rare as the dodo) but if you look at the top of this bottle you can just make out the famous spade/shovel:

http://members.fortunecity.de/tvogt/bierdeckel/spatenthoma.jpg

Jackson refers to Spaten as making an Export Dark/Dunkel that he notes is oddly hard to find outside of Germany (from the "New World Guide").

[steveh]

Hmm, link ain't working.

I wonder if the brewpub is some sort of experimental "kitchen" for Spaten?

S.

[MeridianFC]

I'm not going to be satisified till I have a bottle in my mitts. The quest is on!

BTW I just found out that Harpoon Munich Dark is not carried by our local distributor. Not that I'm surprised, they are a quantity over quality type of group.

[MeridianFC]

Just found another domestic to add to the search list:

Sly Fox Dunkel Lager (canned!).

I've got a call into a buddy in Philly to see can I get some.

[chazwicke]

Sly Fox is one of my favorite craft breweries. They make an amazing Rauch. This one sounds great.

[MeridianFC]

I have to say their Pilsner was outstanding. Also out of a can.

[MeridianFC]

Now in hand:

Ayinger Altbairisch Dunkel
Allgäuer Urbairisch Dunkel
Ettaler Kloster Dunkel
Dinkel Acker Dark
Einbecker Schwarzbier
Weltenberger Barock Dunkel
Harpoon Munich Dark

Waiting for the trip to Norms to get Penn and Hofbrau Dark. My Philly connection is attempting to acquire the Sly Fox Dunkel Lager.

The plan is starting to come together.