London's best pubs

[PocketLobster]

Seven or Eight of my friends and I will be flying to London for a Three or Four day weekend to drink some "real ale." I could use a few recommendations for pubs that do real ales and/or pubs that are not to be missed. Thanks.

[Richard English]

Where are you staying? London is a big place. In fact, almost all pubs will sell Real Ale although they will vary in their quality and in the price and quality of their beer.

However, any Youngs or Fullers pub will be fine. Wetherspoons is probably the best pub chain (that is, whose pubs are not owned by a brewery) and usually has the cheapest prices.

Avoid any pub that has loud music or big-screen TV - such pubs rarely sell decent beer. Similarly avoid hotel and theatre bars. Don't expect to get decent beer in a restuarant - it's usually better to get your food in a pub if you want a good drink.

Only drink draught beer that has been hand-pumped; anything from a tap (in other words, the way it's normally sold in the USA) will almost certainly be cold and fizzy.

Most pubs will not sell good bottled beer so it's generally best to stick to draught. Remember, too, that the better pubs (again usually Fullers and Youngs) will sell both kinds of Budweiser - the real stuff from Czechoslovakia and the A-B variety. The UK is the only country in the world where you'll see them both side by side.

Please feel free to ask for any tips and I will do all I can to ensure that your visit to London will be as enjoyable as it should be.

Remember, it is considered quite in order to go into a pub and look around. If you don't like the look of the place, just walk out.

[Herb Ninja]

The Wenlock Arms off the beaten path in London. Say no more. The cask selection is amazing. Good atmosphere too. :)

[Theakston]

I can second the Wenlock Arms:
http://www.wenlock-arms.co.uk/

Then theres the White Horse at Parsons Green:

http://www.whitehorsesw6.com/

and here are a few other gems.

Market Porter - Stoney Street, SE1 (London Bridge, right by Borough Market) - always changing range of 8 or 9 real ales


Royal Oak - Tabard St, SE1 (Borough) - just 5 mins walk south of the Market Porter; the only Harveys pub in London - usually 6 on draught at once, plus more bottles (closed at weekends)


The Sultan - Norman Road, SW19 (South Wimbledon) - out in the sticks, but a fantastic back street boozer, the only Hop Back brewery pub in London

Jerusalem Tavern - Britton Street, EC1 (Farringdon) - excellent boozer with St Peters beers

Star Tavern - Belgrave Mews West, SW1 (Belgravia) - for the essential Fullers experience, this one's in a very posh neighbourhood................

.....It would help if we knew where you were staying though

:)

I'm sure Richard would be able to help you more.

[Richard English]

Absolutely. London is an easy city to get around and the public transport's quite cheap. However, it's easier to walk to a pub than to take the 'bus or tube.

[chazwicke]

I can recommend a few in the Westminster Victoria area. The Two chairs and Buckingham Arms being the best. Others in the area are Westminster Arms, Cask and Glass, The Colonies, Adam & Eve, The Albert, Bag O Nails (I was disappointed on my last stop there), Weatherspoons in Victoria Station for its selection. In Kensington I recommend The Britannia, a fine Youngs pub. Kensington / Notting Hill area: Churchill Arms (Fullers.) As stated before, ONLY drink REAL ALE from the hand pumps. You will not be disappointed!

[Dr J]

I wholeheartedly agree with the recommendations for Star Tavern, White Horse and Churchill Arms (which has a great Thai restaurant attached.) I also love The Blackfriar and Ye Old Cheshire Cheese for sheer ambiance - though I don't think they have Real Ale.

[Herb Ninja]

However, it's easier to walk to a pub than to take the 'bus or tube.

Not if your going from Picadilly Circus to the Wenlock Arms. Unless you consider walking easier then sitting on the tube. ;)

[Richard English]

Guilty as charged of vague language.

I meant, of course, that it's easier to walk to a pub that's nearby than take the tube to one that's far away.

So, if "pocket lobster" is staying, say, in the Thistle Grosvenor at Victoria, then pubs such as the Buckingham Arms in Petty France (one of the few pubs that has been in EVERY edition of the GBG since it started) would be ideal. However, if he's in, say, the Great Western Hilton in Paddington, then the Victoria (a Fuller's house) would be the better choice.

Unless he or she is prepared to break silence on his or her location then it is difficult to help further.

[Herb Ninja]

I found that the majority of pubs I visited recomended by Cask Marque only had one or two cask ales. I was kinda disappointed. There were several good pubs around London I visited, The Wenlock Arms certainly takes home my invisible trophey. The people were friendly and the cask beer was changing aroound fast so there was lots of different beers to try. Although kinda expensive, they had a decent bottle beer selection as well. :p

[Richard English]

Cask Marque is backed by the brewers and is not an independent judging panel. Whereas its suggestions are usually accurate there may well be better pubs in an area that do not subscribe to Cask Marque.

Cask Marque did send out a newsletter around six months ago with "What's Brewing" and in it was reproduced a so-called "list of competences" for those handling Real Ale. Not only was the grammar appalling and the style poor and inconsistent, but many of the competences were ambigious and contradictory. An example of something put together by one whose English was, to say the least of it, imperfect and furthermore, something that had never received the attentions of a proof-reader.

I did write to the editor (I even telephoned CM to find out his name). Would you be surprised to learn that he never even had the good manners to reply?

I am dubious about the activities of any organisation that is unable properly to communicate with its customers!

[Herb Ninja]

Ya thats makes me twice as doubtful of this Cask Marque.

then pubs such as the Buckingham Arms in Petty France (one of the few pubs that has been in EVERY edition of the GBG since it started) would be ideal.

I'm still new to the beer world, whats GBG and what do you mean by petty france?

Thanks-

[Richard English]

The GBG is the Good Beer Guide. It's a CAMRA publication that lists pubs that sell good beer. In this way it differs from those publications such as "Good Pub Guides" that are concerned primarily about the actual place. If a pub does not sell good beer, regardless of its other merits, it cannot appear in the GBG.

Copies are available from CAMRA - go to their site at www.camra.org.uk

Petty France is a street in London, not far from Buckingham Palace. The nearest tube (subway) station is St James's Park, but it's an easy walk from Victoria station if you're arriving from Gatwick on the train.

Anyone visiting London should get a copy of the London A-Z guide (no other publication is as good) which lists all streets and important buildings. The A-Z guide is available from most good bookshops, including those in the USA. And don't be fooled into buying anything else, no matter what the bookseller says; the A-Z is the Fuller's 1845 of map books, anything else is, at best, the Newcastle Brown.

[Herb Ninja]

With so much beer in this world I would have thought this discussion board would be alot more active and full. The marijuana forum I post at is massive, member wise at least. Well since I got this on my mind and im posting ill just ask it here instead of reposting in another forum. I know this is a good beer forum plain and simple, but would asking a question like perhaps, how to make good beer with marijuana in place of hops, would that be off-topic?

Anyway thanks for the help Richard! You cracked me up with that any other book would be at best newcastle brown joke. :D

[Richard English]

Hops are, in fact, quite a recent additive to beer. Until about 300 years ago they were not used and beer was flavoured with other kinds of herbs. Indeed, you can still buy beers that use the old recipes - Froach, for example, is flavoured with heather.

Originally hops were added as a preservative and many drinkers did not like their bitterness. However, as the years rolled on a hoppy flavour became accepted and is now expected.

I have never taken marijuana in any shape or form and so don't have any idea of what its flavour is. However, as it's a herb I see no reason why it shouldn't be used to flavour beer. What the beer will taste like, and whether people would like it, I wouldn't care to guess.

[Herb Ninja]

I have never taken marijuana in any shape or form and so don't have any idea of what its flavour is.

Well thats suprising to say the least, but at least even though you have never tasted or smoked it your not going around spurting out propaganda about it. The majority of people that have never done marijuana would tell me its either way more harmful then cigarettes/crack/whatever or that its gonna kill or corrupt me forever. I appriciate your actually looking at the situation with open eyes unlike many ignorant propaganda eating Americans who just think illegal drug, evil.

I enjoy the taste of high quality cannabis. I don't mind the skunkyness. Its my favorite herb. Its also one of the safest naturally occuring theraputic substance known to man. Enough about that though.....

What part of England do you call home Richard?

I never really liked the bitter hop effect of beer, but that was mainly because the beers I was drinking contained a bad mix of bad hops. Once I got to england and had some bitters and many different cask ales I realized beer and its bitterness can actually taste decent. Even London Pride is better then any mass produced beer in the U.S.A. I personally found some of the dark milds to be so appealing and good tasting to me that I actually wanted to stay in rainy old England.

Ohh and I went to a beer festival in Hove and that was very very cool. Lots of good cask beer, cider, lots of types, lots of fun. :)

Until later, thanks-

[Richard English]

I have no issue with marijuana; to my mind it's up to people to make up their own minds about what they do to their bodies. When I was an impressionable teenager cigarettes were the common vice (their deadly side-effects were not realised back then) so it was cigarettes I tried. Fortunately I never became addicted and haven't smoked now for probably 45 years. Marijuana became popular in the 1960s when I was a responsible (and poor) father so marijuana never had a chance with me!

I live in Reigate, in Surrey. That's about 30 miles south of London and about 30 miles north of Brighton - so very near to Hove.

Mild beers are more common in the north of England and the Midlands, although Harveys of Lewes do produce a good mild which I drink quite often. Mild refers to the flavour (less hoppy) not the strength, although many people don't realise this. Although milds are typically less strong than bitters, there are also some very strong milds around - Sarah Hughes, for example.

[Herb Ninja]

Mild refers to the flavour (less hoppy) not the strength, although many people don't realise this.

*laugh* Ya I thought mild refered more to having less alcohol although I noticed it was less bitter(hoppy). Well I gotta make something out of this post so ill share... (Note: I typically like dark beers, stouts, porters, dark milds.)

Some beers I tried and liked at the hove beer festival-

Bear Towns Pandamonium
Boats Man in the Boat
Brains Dark
Dwans Black Pearl Stout
Holts mild
Hydes dark mild
W J KINGS Kings Old Ale
Nursery's Oat King Cole
Sarah Hughes Dark Ruby Mild
Whites Dark Mild
Elgoods Black Dog Mild
Mighty Oak Oscar Wilde
Saint Peters Mild

Ok ill admit, this is the most of what I tried, yet I still liked them all.

I was staying in Brighton at baggies backpackers hostel, nice place, nice people, good times. Not far from where the festival was either.

[chazwicke]

I too prefer milds. I was at the annual German Beer Night last evening put on by the German Air Force at Dulles Airport. But instead of discussing German beer we of course talked about English beers. A friend of mine who joined me at the GBBF this summer said that two of the Dark Milds he drank there were absolutely the best beers he had ever had. I also enjoyed more than a few of the milds. (I managed to drink 81 beers during that particular stay in London, most at the GBBF. I did keep a list if anyone wants to see it.) English beer is positively the best in the world. I travel there frequently solely for beer tasting. I envy Richard because he has so much at his fingertips. By the way, Richard, It turns out that I actually had about five or six other American friends that made their way over for the GBBF. Including Bob Tupper of Tupper's Hop Pocket Fame who I didn't run into until the last day of the fest. Anyway, the beer at German Beer Night was fresh but disappointing. It was Paulaner, Wharfsteiner, and Bitburger all flown in and very fresh but I am an Ale man. I attend every year more for the social aspects anyway. Lastly with regard to herb additives. There are a couple beers being brewed or previously brewed professionally in the States that are made with hemp seeds. One was called Hempen Ale and brewed by Frederick Brewing Company in Maryland. I had ample opportunities to try it but never did. I did my experimenting with pot in the early 70s and that was enough. I have, however, had the Froach on several occasions and at least two tastings with Bruce Williams it maker, at the Brickskeller. (I also tried haggis at one of the tastings.)

[Richard English]

Obviously I agree and it's one of the reasons why I continue to live in England. Not that it's a bad place, of course, but there are many other wonderful places that I have been to as well (obviously including the USA).

However, nothing beats getting back from the airport and quaffing a few pints of good English ale!

On another board I post to (not a beer board) there was some beer discussion and one person there said of Fuller's 1845 (which I don't think she had ever drunk) "...I can get a six-pack or Miller for the price of a bottle of 1845..." and I thought then, and think now, how sad that is. Clearly she believes that all beers are the same - cold, fizzy and almost tasteless - and so why spend more on one than another? Strangely, nobody would ever suggest that same was true of food, "...why bother with a haute cusine meal when a hamburger and fries is so much cheaper..."

It was Henry Royce who said, "...In the end the best is cheapest for the quality will remain long after the price has been forgotten..." As one who owns a car made by his company, I can only say I agree. Every time I get in and feel the leather, admire the wood and sense the precision of the controls, I appreciate the quality that I paid for and have, without doubt, long forgotten the money I spent.

[chazwicke]

[i]Originally posted by Richard English

It was Henry Royce who said, "...In the end the best is cheapest for the quality will remain long after the price has been forgotten..." As one who owns a car made by his company, I can only say I agree. Every time I get in and feel the leather, admire the wood and sense the precision of the controls, I appreciate the quality that I paid for and have, without doubt, long forgotten the money I spent. [/B]


Great point! I fully believe in this and have tried to instill this in my son as well. Whatever you are purchasing be it beer, a meal, clothing, furniture or automobiles, always go for quality over expense as it is my belief that you get what you pay for. I even adhere to this in my dealings with my employee salaries. I pay them more and reward them frequently and they are completely loyal, trustworthy and hard working. I have the best in my industry. Incidentally I drive an Infiniti FX45. I bought it in April and I love it.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Richard English
On another board I post to (not a beer board) there was some beer discussion and one person there said of Fuller's 1845 (which I don't think she had ever drunk) "...I can get a six-pack or Miller for the price of a bottle of 1845..." and I thought then, and think now, how sad that is. Clearly she believes that all beers are the same - cold, fizzy and almost tasteless -

Either she's paying much too much for 1845 (but I'll bet she's never really looked at a bottle and is making a bad assumption), or she's got the best deal on Miller-Swill I've ever heard.

I saw 1845 in one of the bigger stores around here just lately and it was around $3 a bottle. I think a six pack of Miller is around $4 or $4.50 these days. 19 oz of great tasting beverage, or 72 oz of dish water? I know what my choice would be.

Life's too short to drink bad beer.

S.

[Richard English]

That's actually a very good price for 1845 - I pay that in my local Safeway for a bottle and I live only about 30 miles from the brewery. And Fullers have to ship their beer across the Atlantic for you to be able to buy it.

Believe it or not, Miller and other swill costs MORE here than Fuller's! It's very clever marketing since the US megabreweries have cleverly positoned their brands as premium products and are pricing them accordingly. Those who drink chemical fizz can differentiate between the brands only by price (they all taste the same, as we know) and therefore are kidding themselves that they are getting "the best" because it costs more! In the UK A-B Budweiser is now the most popular bottled beer in the country - here, where we can buy any number of far better beers for less!

Interesting that A-B have succeeded in becoming the most popular beer in the USA by precisely opposite tactics - by being the cheapest. No wonder they are trying so hard to get a stranglehold on the UK market when you realise just how much profit they must be making here - the more so when you realise that it's actually manufactured in London and so they don't even have the shipping costs.

Incidentally, Henry Royce did not say that the best necessarily had the highest purchase price; he said it was the cheapest in the end - regardless of its initial price. Most people assume that the most expensive must be the best and cite the Rolls-Royce car as an example - even though it has probably never been the most expensive car on the market in all the marque's 100-year history.

[Herb Ninja]

A-B Budweiser is now the most popular bottled beer in the country

I feel for you, its the top beer in America too. My question is, when people can get Budvar there why the hell do they drink the American liquidpuke. :confused: I had some of that in England and it just made me laugh my ass off at our piss (budweiser) that so many ppl love.

There was good bottled beer shop in London and I totally spaced the name out, good selection, nice owner, decent prices. It wasn't all that far from The Wenlock Arms either. Anybody know the name please post it, ill be thinking about it all day.

[Richard English]

The Wenlock Arms is in Wenlock Street and the beer shop (whose name escapes me, too) is in Pitfield Street. Both are in North London, not far from Old Street tube station. I do some work for a publisher in Charles Square which is between the two.

And why do drinkers in the UK drink A-B Budweiser when they could rink the real Czech Budweiser for the same price of any one of many wonderful UK bottled beers for less?

Put it down to the power of clever promotion.

[Herb Ninja]

Pitfield Street.

Thanks that helped me allot in remembering the name, since the name is Pitfield brewery and Pitfield beer shop(or whatever the shop is called). Simple as that. :D

[PocketLobster]

Wow! Thanks for all the reponses. I've been very busy lately and seem to have been a while since I've checked this thread. Well I'm not sure where I'm staying in London but I'm sure a tube station will be nearby - last time I stayed near Paddington Station as well as Earls Court. Thanks for all the respones. Steve

[Richard English]

The Victoria (Fuller's) is very near to Paddington station and is a very decent pub.

[denver brewhoo]

Richard--there may be another trip to London in my relatively near future. I'm wondering if I can get to the Hook Norton brewery without hiring a car...is there a train station remotely near there? Last trip we went to Oxford, via Thames Trains out of Paddington; I assume that would be the appropriate carrier.

By the way, that train served one of the 2 cold-as-in-the-states beers I have had in England (a fullers London Pride in a can)...the other being a Carlsberg fizzy yellow beer at Stamford Bridge at the half (Chelsea 5 Man City nil, more than made up for the beer)

[Richard English]

Hook Norton is easy enough to get to and the brewery is well worth a visit. Go to http://www.hooknortonbrewery.co.uk/ to find out more.

Trains go from Marylebone or Paddington (Chiltern Trains from Marylebone are probably best since there's no changing) and take about an hour.

From Banbury, Hook Norton is about eight miles so best to take a taxi.

Sadly the beer on most of our trains is relatively poor although on some of our preserved steam lines it's very good. I had a good pint of Harvey's last weekend on the Bluebell line. Obviously it's difficult to serve cask beer on a train since the motion shakes up the sediment but nevertheless some make an effort and I enjoyed a fair pint on both the North Norfolk and the West Somerset lines.

[Theakston]

I once worked in Porthmadog.....a long, long time ago. We used to go on the Ffestiniog railway on a Sunday because it was the only place you could get a pint on a Sunday!! (albeit keg stuff)

An another note...near where I grew up is Stalybridge Station. This station has an amazing range of beers in the tiny victorian buffet. People often get off their trains mid journey to enjoy a few pints there before continuing (or not if they have too many and miss the last one).

In any case if you are ever in the area it is worth visiting:

http://www.buffetbar.co.uk/main/index.htm

[Richard English]

I like the guest ales. Shame about the regular range, though. Castlemaine 6X - what a foul choice!

[chazwicke]

The Aussies don't seem to export very good beers. Possible exceptions might be Tooth's Sheath Stout. And one or two of the Cooper's range. Come to think of it, I don't recall when I last saw any of these in my local beer stores. Only that crap Fosters.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English
I like the guest ales. Shame about the regular range, though. Castlemaine 6X - what a foul choice!

I think they keep those for the anoraks! (trainspotters to those not familiar with the term)

[stronk]

The Red Lion, in Pall Mall, is a good pub (walking distance from piccadilly circus), apparently the oldest pub in the area. The landlord is a friendly guy and the pub is small and cosy. Unfortunately, the choice of real ales is somewhat limited (bass and brakspear bitter), but the draught guinness is famous.

If you're in Barnes, there are a number of good pubs to go to around the high street area: the Bull's Head on the riverfront (very famous jazz pub, www.thebullshead.com), the Red Lion (another one) and the Coach and Horses are all enjoyable and fairly slow-paced.

[chazwicke]

Thanks Stronk and welcome to the board!

[Richard English]

It's surprising how many London pubs are "the oldest in the area"! I don't use the Red Lion myself; my preferred pub in the Picadilly Circus area would be the Tom Cribb. Having said which, there are plenty of decent pubs around that area and in many cases it's a question of which one's the nearest.

Today I visited the Chicago stand at the World Travel Market in the hope that they would have some Goose Bay. Some hopes. The USA stand, resplendent in its glorification of all that's best and brightest in the USA had, as its offer to delight the visitors' tastebuds, Coors and Budweiser. No wonder the world believes that the Americans can't brew beer!

[Kalleh1]

Well, being a Chicagoan, Richard, I am sorry to hear that! Since we have the second largest real ale festival (outside of the U.K.) in the world, one might have thought you could have tasted some of our good beer. Why Americans keep drinking Budweiser, Miller and Coors is beyond me.

[chazwicke]

kalleh, you speak for us all! It would be great if some of the smaller breweries were represented. Richard, I know that some of the Dogfish Head beers are showing up in England now. Several people on another board have found them in the local Safeway.

[Richard English]

Of all the UK Supermarkets, Safeway is probably the best for its range of good beers. The compnay does, in fact, sponsor the "Good Bottled Beer Guide".

Sadly good beer promotion is a very low key thing when compared with the promotion of the chemical fizz brewers. I feel sure that A-B will have spent massive amounts of money to make sure that their junk was of high profile at the World Travel Market (the largest travel and tourism event in the world) since this will further increase their omnipotence. However, I wonder whether Goose Island (or any of the other quality brewers) even thought to approach their States or regions and offered to sponsor the beer provision at WTM. Most stands make it their business to have one of their country's or region's local specialities available to promote their benefits (guess what the Scots had?!).

I am going to Qatar next year and so went to their stand to see what the country will have to offer. I asked the question, "...What's the beer like...?" and, predictably, got the answer initially that the delectable Qatari lady I was questioning didn't drink beer. As she was probably a good Moslem this was my expectation. However, she checked for me to find out what was available and returned, beaming.

"Yes", she smiled, "We have all the same kinds of beers you have in England". I didn't believe that for a microsecond and asked whether she knew the names of any of the brands.

Her smile broadened.

"Yes", she repeated. "We have Budweiser and..."

I stopped her before I became too depressed. But what a commentary. The only beer she had heard of was A-B swill and she thought it was British!

There is only one campaigning body that has even a 1% chance of getting withing 1% of A-B's promotional capability and that's CAMRA. Please join and consider setting up a US chapter.

[stronk]

Thanks for the welcome, chazwicke.

I'm going to become a CAMRA member as soon as I can find the time and money. It's well worth setting up a branch in America somewhere, if someone reading this has the time and money to make it a success.

Off-topic, I can also recommend a few good pubs in the Windsor and Eton area. The Waterman's Arms is a great old pub with a log fire in the winter and a plethora of real ales (one guest ale pump, too). The George (also on the Eton High street) is highly recommended, too.

The only pub in the riverside parts of Windsor I can remotely recommend is the Donkey House (just over the bridge, on the left, from Eton); and this only because it serves old speckled hen on draught (the pub itself is only good for a summer afternoon, when you can sit outside by the river).

[Richard English]

Some of England's best pubs are in the Thames Valley, of which Eton is one of the earlier parts as you leave London.

Of course, Henley-on-Thames was once the home of Brakspears (closed by the cost-accountants) and probably one of the nicest towns in the world. Fortunately the pubs are still good even if the brewery has closed.

[chazwicke]

I live ihere in the States But I am a CAMRA Member. The most recent newspaper I got from them states that they just passed the 70,000 member mark. Way to go CAMRA! I would encourage everyone to join. Without them there would be very little cask beer.

[Richard English]

Indeed. That's only about 1.4% of the population of the UK, even though the proportion that drink beer is far greater.

Sadly complacency and inertia is as great in the world of beer as it is in most other things. That's why the influential few can control the uninterested many - who suddenly realise that something they don't like has happened while they weren't looking.

On the bright side, though, the marvellous results that CAMRA has achieved show what can be done by a group of keen and dedicated people, even in the face of the might of the likes of A-B.

Are there any PR experts on this board who would be willing to try to help CAMRA in its efforts - especially in the USA where CAMRA is little known? Indeed, I suspect that even those Americans who drink good beer are quite unaware of just how much the US craft beer revolution owes to CAMRA.

[PocketLobster]

I'll be staying near the South Kensington tube station, thanks for all the info.

[MeridianFC]

As has been mentioned make sure you get your copy of the 2004 Good Beer Guide (e. Roger Protz) £10.00. It is indispensable.

There is also a CAMRA Lodon Pub Guide (Lynne Pierce) £7.99. It was written in 2001 but there's plenty of good information in it. She pays a bit more attention to the food and atmosphere, it is a pub guide after all, then might be strictly necessary for beer enthusiast, but I got full value out of it.

While this might be a bit out of your way, I'd recommend a trip to the Meantime Brewery's tap the Greenwich Union (56 Royal Hill SE10). Everytime I'm over to the Isles I end up drinking cask ale pretty much non stop, I recommend that you do the same :) , but it's nice to take a break every once in a while and Meantime's beers are a good way to do so. Alasdair Hook's beers are for the most part interesting (the Chocolate is the standout) and he's done a good job with his mission to repair the tarnished reputation of English lager. To be fair some of the beers are only par with what you'd find in an American brewpub, that is to say not over exciting, but it's still worth the trip. The number of good/great beers is the rule not the exception. The best part is the Richard I (Young's) is next door and it's a great little boozer.

As far as other pubs The Angel (61 St. Giles High Street WC2H) is quite nice. It's a Sam Smith pub. Seek out free houses that carry O'Hanlon's beers and there's one McMullen's pub in the theatre district I can't recall off the top of my head.

[Kalleh1]

I live here in the States But I am a CAMRA Member. Chazwicke, is there a CAMRA group in the U.S.? I am interested in either joining one or starting one if one doesn't exist. Others here from the U.S. may be interested, too.

[MeridianFC]

Not to step on Chazwicke's toes, but there are 4 US branches:

http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.ASP?WCI=ShowDoc&DocID=97

Florida & the Southeast
Massachussetts & New England
Michigan
Nebraska & the Midwest

I wonder what the Nebraska meetings are like? ;)

I just became a CAMRA member myself. The newsletter is very interesting. If you can get over to Britain there's no better way to keep up with the festivals and what not.

[Richard English]

Interesting. When I last tried to find out about overseas CAMRA chapters I could only find them in Europe.

This is very good news.

[chazwicke]

Interesting to me too. I was unaware of the US chapters. Thanks!

[MeridianFC]

It is a bit unusual to be a foreign based non-expat member.

I have a few friends, all English and beer fanatics oddly enough, who are rabidly against CAMRA.

Crazy world innit?

[denver brewhoo]

MeridianFC---I know that McMullen's pub, I always seem to stop into it every trip. Oddly enough, I remember that the pub directly across the way is called the White Horse, but i can never remember the name of the one you mention. It's at the top of the street where the buskers, including the world's angriest chalk painter, ply their trade, in Covent Garden, between the tube stop and the bazaar. Right? Or is there another McMullen's pub nearby?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
It is a bit unusual to be a foreign based non-expat member.

I have a few friends, all English and beer fanatics oddly enough, who are rabidly against CAMRA.

Crazy world innit?

There are a couple of British beer forums that I sometimes visit. Everything beer is taken very seriously by them and there are usually many rabid arguments on those sites. To say they have strong feelings about beer and pubs would be an understatement. I for one support CAMRA and am a member because I believe it was CAMRA who rescued real ale from the verge of its death bed. For that alone they deserve my support. I know they are now recognized as a potent political force and sometimes stray a bit from their main focus but we all owe them a debt of gratitude for fighting the good fight.

[MeridianFC]

Chaz, I agree with you completely.

Denver, I think the pub you're thinking of is the Nags Head. The one I went to is the Spice of Life. I just had a devil of a time remembering the name, which given the hoops I had to jump through to find the place seems like it would not be the case. I was literally a block away and it took me near 30 minutes to find (trust me it's not hidden) with my A-Z and all. Such is the wonder of the London streets! The SoL is next to the theatre Les Miserable is at.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I have a few friends, all English and beer fanatics oddly enough, who are rabidly against CAMRA.."

What are the grounds for their dislike? As both Chaswyke and I have averred in these pages, had it not been for CAMRA it is highly unlikely there would not be any British Real Ale.

Trust me. I remember all too well the slough of fizzy despond we were sliding into in the early 1960s.

Watney's Red Barrel; Whtbread Tankard; Double Diamond; Flowers Keg - all gone thank God and thank CAMRA.

Fuller's 1845; Coniston Bluebird; Hogs Back T.E.A.; Young's SLA - all now here - thanks to CAMRA.

Some of the younger drinker really have mo idea at all of how close a shave it was.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Chaz, I agree with you completely.

Denver, I think the pub you're thinking of is the Nags Head. The one I went to is the Spice of Life. I just had a devil of a time remembering the name, which given the hoops I had to jump through to find the place seems like it would not be the case. I was literally a block away and it took me near 30 minutes to find (trust me it's not hidden) with my A-Z and all. Such is the wonder of the London streets! The SoL is next to the theatre Les Miserable is at.

I drank at one across the street from that theater and on an earlier trip I saw the London version of Les Miserables which I thought was better than the version I saw here in Washington. Probably my favorite play.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...I have a few friends, all English and beer fanatics oddly enough, who are rabidly against CAMRA.."

What are the grounds for their dislike? As both Chaswyke and I have averred in these pages, had it not been for CAMRA it is highly unlikely there would not be any British Real Ale.

Trust me. I remember all too well the slough of fizzy despond we were sliding into in the early 1960s.

Watney's Red Barrel; Whtbread Tankard; Double Diamond; Flowers Keg - all gone thank God and thank CAMRA.

Fuller's 1845; Coniston Bluebird; Hogs Back T.E.A.; Young's SLA - all now here - thanks to CAMRA.

Some of the younger drinker really have mo idea at all of how close a shave it was.

Yes! Thank God for CAMRA!

[MeridianFC]

RE,

It's important to note that as a Yank and a CAMRA member they didn't really want to "get into it" with me and being a guest on your shores I duly obliged by not doing so.

As best I can remember their arguements:

1. Focused too much on beer to the exclusion of pubs. While you and I realize that CAMRA does an incredible amount of work on the behalf of the pub in both the trade and historic sense, I think the one fellow took exception to the GBG approach to what was acceptable for a pub (GBG guidlines for inclusion or removal etc.). I think he felt a good pub was a good pub regardless of whether it served real ale or not. While I personally don't agree, I can somewhat understand that mindset. I did mention that the organization is the Campaign for real ALE. Pretty obvious what's afoot there innit?

2. Felt CAMRA was a bit rarified in it's membership, that is to say that the vast majority of it's members were "of a type". I'm sure you've heard the CAMRA sterotype before, and like all sterotypes it came from somewhere. Obviously CAMRA types come from all walks, but there sure are a number who would fit the "type".

3. Didn't like many of what they perceived as anti EU and in cases aggressively pro Inger-lund like attitudes of some of the members. I have to say I have a experienced a little bit of this myself. I certanly don't take it at all as the rule for the organization, but it's not unusual to run into Bulldog pissing on whatever t-shirts at some festivals. Hey we get it here to (festoon the stars & stripes or an eagle to anything that's not moving?)

4. Felt the CAMRA approach was not beneficial (cooperative?) to other areas of modern English/British brewing culture (micros, brewpubs that aren't cask oriented). There's a letter in the newest "What's Brewing" that brings up a similar point. Again the focus of the organization is plain, but I think I understand what he was getting at.

Now I probably have not done their arguments justice, but it really wasn't put to me clearly and they're certainly not coming here to discuss it. Obviously I thought it was, for the most part, a load of bollocks. The funny thing is we supped a mighty amount of fine cask ale together.

Me? I'm CAMRA and proud.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Obviously I thought it was, for the most part, a load of bollocks...."

A succinct and accurate description of what you have described.

It is a basic characteristic of the human species that what one likes another will dislike. In many cases these are simply beliefs and are not based on fact (as is always the case with beliefs). So there is little point in trying to refute beliefs with facts since facts have not created the beliefs. For example, I hate football (soccer) and believe it's a complete and absolute waste of time and should be banned. I am happy in that belief and anyone who tries to persuade me that I am wrong by quoting facts about football's benefits to world peace and happiness is wasting his or her time.

Your anti-CAMRA friends' beliefs are, again, not based on fact and thus a factual discussion of facts will be pointless. However, for the benefit of those on this board who might now be concerned as to whether they should join CAMRA, having heard these suggestions, I will answer them.

1. CAMRA is the Campagn for Real Ale, not the Campaign for Real Pubs. It does have a Pub Preservation Group but no pub that didn't serve Real Ale would be of interest to CAMRA. I have never, in the past 20 years, been in a decent pub that has no Real Ale and thus the comment about "...whether or not a pub served Real Ale..." is pointless. My response to such a statement would be to ask for an example of one such; I doubt you'd get one.

2. CAMRA is open to all regardless of colour, class, race, creed, country, sex - or indeed anything else. If its membership comes from a particular type or group then this will be the choice of those who join, not of CAMRA. In fact, it's not true anyway. Although the media like to portray CAMRA members as all being middle-aged men with beards and pot-bellies (and will seek out pictures to support their belief) the stereotype is not accurate, as anyone who has been to the GBBF will know. Around 25% of CAMRA's membership is women (often young women) and the present Chair is also a woman.

3. I think the anti-EU attitude of CAMRA is probably less than the anti-EU of Britain as a whole! A large majority of Britons do not want to have anything to do with the EU (which is one reason why we haven't adopted the Euro). The GBBF actaully has a massive foreign beer section that obviously includes beers from all over the world. That CAMRA may be pro-British is not entirely surprising. It was a British organisation, founded by Britons, to save Britain's beer heritage and whose members are still largely British. To suggest that this is somehow wrong is rather like suggesting that there's something wrong with the NFL because it concentrates on American Football and not soccer!

4. CAMRA is very supportive of micro-brewers but would not take too much notice of any such that didn't brew Real Ale (if such existed - and I doubt that). It is, after all, the Campaign for Real Ale, not the Campaign for Alcoholic Drinks. Again, I would ask for an example of such prejudice.

However, I will reiterate my original point; the kinds of statements your have heard are based on beliefs and emotions and have no basis in fact. Base your own decisions on facts and you'll be in a better position to make good decisions.

[Herb Ninja]

CAMRA is open to all regardless of colour, class, race, creed, country, sex - or indeed anything else.

Thats good, i'm hoping age is not a factor either then? Peace, HN-

[Theakston]

Let me first state that yes, I do remember the bad days before CAMRA. It was dire (especially in the South, less so around the North were there were still a lot of smaller traditional local breweries - this market was less attractive to the mega breweries but they would have taken over there too eventually).
And yes I was a member of CAMRA before I came to live in the USA.
And yes I love cask ales. For an English style ale Keg simply can not compare.

BUT. I think the problem that CAMRA has is that it focusses almost entirely on the method of dispensing beer:
Cask good all else bad.
And that is over simplistic. CAMRA would not consider an ale as "real" unless it was delivered this way.

In a perfect world perhaps all ales could be delivered this way, and it is certainly fitting for the traditional English pub which, as an establishment that was "tied" to a specific brewery, had only one draft bitter and maybe a mild available - so it had the turnover of product to support the exclusive use of this delivery system.

But turnover is the problem. You can't support "slow movers" with this system. Many pubs used a low level of carbonation - a "blanket" of CO2 to protect slow movers (such as mild) from premature oxidation. CAMRA would not approve of this and as a result many pubs stopped serving their mild so that they could be considered a "real ale" pub.

So this is the dilemma that CAMRA finds itself in.
The only way to support a wide range of properly kept fresh beers, dispensed as cask ales, is to have a large turnover. The Witherspoons chains are good at this - they have huge mega pubs in city centers and they advertise widely. But they are charmless institutions with all the atmosphere of an airport bar.

So while CAMRA did a great job of reigning in the large brewers and fostering a support of traditional English ales, I think it needs to "move on" and look at the big picture. Support diversity even if that means recognising that some beers, and styles of beer may be OK even if delivered via a keg or preserved with CO2. It needs to recognise that there are other threats to traditional beers, such as lambic beers, and get involved in those fights too. It needs to recognize that the traditional English pub is very much under threat from large chains that have replaced family run local pubs with Mcpubs run like a fast food chain.

At the end of the day it is all about diversity and taste. That is why it is great that it preserved a style of beer that was threatened with extinction. But it's time to take off the blinkers: a crappy beer on cask is still a crappy beer. And a keg from a great craft brewer such as Victory or Dogfish may even be better.

Rant over: load of bollocks?

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Richard English
For example, I hate football (soccer) and believe it's a complete and absolute waste of time and should be banned. I am happy in that belief and anyone who tries to persuade me that I am wrong by quoting facts about football's benefits to world peace and happiness is wasting his or her time.



And here's me thinking you were an euridite and reasonable fellow.

;)

[chazwicke]

Again I find myself siding with Richard. I hate soccer too.

[MeridianFC]

and here's me.....oh, never mind.

:D

[Theakston]

It's OK I love soccer too (only I call it football). Coming from Manchester how could I not love United!
You see Richard is from London. They are so clueless that they have to get French people to play for their teams!:eek:

[MeridianFC]

Finally a voice of reason in the wilderness.

:p

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Theakston
It's OK I love soccer too (only I call it football). Coming from Manchester how could I not love United!
You see Richard is from London. They are so clueless that they have to get French people to play for their teams!:eek:

"We are French! Can't you tell by my outrageous accent!"

"What are you doing here?"

"None of your Business!"

[studentofbeer]

speaking of football (soccer), im heading to london in march and besides trying to force my gf into letting me go to lots of yummy pubs for lots of yummy real ale, i want to hit up a game.

the problem is ticketing seems all crazy. it doesnt seem like a regular joe can even get tickets for london teams (arsenal, chelsea)-- i dont mind traveling to see a game, but does anyone know what team/city i might have a chance of getting a ticket to?

the big problem is that tickets dont seem to go on sale until about a month before hand and i need to firm up hotel situations now, but i figure i can take a train from london to wherever, right?

also, any recommendations for brewery tours in london? fullers is there right? how about young's? would be interested to hear more about the london beer scene... oh and i should probably read this whole thread too.

[MeridianFC]

Fuller's and Young's are the two big breweries in London you can tour. I've never been to Fuller's myself, but I've heard it's quite nice, their beer is certainly good. They're in the Chiswick neighborhood which one usually passes on the way in from Heathrow (far west side of the city).

The Young's tour is a good time and I highly recommend it, more so now that the future of the site is uncertain. They are located in the Wandsworth section of town (south of the city).

As far as football, if you're wedded to the idea of a Premiere League game it is going to be difficult, though not impossible, to acquire tickets. Arsenal and Chelsea are the most difficult for any decent fixture. Tottenham less so. That said I got into Highbury for the League Cup game against Wolves (5:1) by picking up a ticket that day for only £15 in the West Stand. Even got to see Simek (new young American) play. If you don't mind going down the divisions there can be some entertainment had, though the pricess don't drop a low as one might surmise. Football is big business everywhere right now, no matter how dire the team. I spent an enjoyable afternoon at Selhurst Park watching Crystal Palace draw in spectacular fashion to Coventry City. No matter what, you owe it to yourself to go to a pub, down some real ale, and go to a game (then return to pub to "thaw out").

In and around the capital worth seeing (by division):

Premiership
Arsenal
Charlton Athletic (can be a trek, but worth it)
Chelsea
Tottenham Hotspur
Fulham (they are playing at Loftus Road, QPR's ground, for now)

First
Crystal Palace
Brentford (a pub in all four corners of the ground!)
Watford
West Ham United

Third
Leyton Orient

Do not under any circumstance go to Millwall. I'm serious. Is spite of the fact that Kasey Keller got his start there, they have not, advertising to the contrary, rid themselves of the racist/hooligan element.

Everything else should be fine. In several cases the best pubs are not immediately adjacent to the grounds, but nothing is really that far away. I would've put Stevenage Borrough down, but they're a ways out and there really are no taverns near by (that I'm aware of).

In some cases it's possible to get ticket through the US supporter's clubs. I know many folks who've attended Arsenal games this way.

K.

PS I don't support any London teams, but that's never stopped me from enjoying the "posh" southern version of the game. ;)

[Dr J]

As an American football fan travelling to the UK for matches, I have used a variety of methods for obtaining seats. The classic method is showing up early and sereptitiously buying from ticket touts. This is a risky proposition for the uninitiated - not to mention illegal. I have also found connections thru various club supporter web sites. Most recently I bought online direct from the Chelsea FC website for a match last November. You can't instantly buy the exact seat as you can in the US vis ticketmaster or some equivalent. You just file out a "request" and the club will sell to you if the seats aren't otherwise purchased from official team supporters. I ended up getting seats mid-pitch two rows behind the home bench which was a cool view. The big clubs are near tube stops such as Fulham Broadway for Chelsea, Arsenal for (what else) Arsenal, and King's Cross for Tottenham (or so I remember) so access is a breeze. Be sure to arrive early to have a few pints with the hardcore supporters at the local. However, I do second the previous post urging all to avoid Millwall. Not a healthy situation.

[studentofbeer]

thanks for more info-- im going to be there march 20 and the only teams at home in london are arsenal and chelsea unfortunately (chelsea is playing fulham-- i wonder if that will make it more difficult to get tickets to?)

Anyway i guess my best chance is to try to get chelsea tickets online, or try one of the lower divisions.

As far as scalpers, how different is it from the US? I mean, it's illegal here too but it's not like anyone hides it. ive gotten plenty of cubs tickets this way. the only problem is you often pay a significant premium.

sounds like a lot of fun if i get to go though.

edit: we also may have a night at a hotel in birmingham... they are away but is there any other team close by that's accessible? thinking about leicester city maybe?

[Richard English]

Quote "...BUT. I think the problem that CAMRA has is that it focusses almost entirely on the method of dispensing beer:
Cask good all else bad.
And that is over simplistic. CAMRA would not consider an ale as "real" unless it was delivered this way. ..."

I have to assume that you are not a member of CAMRA otherwise you would know that this is just not true. Just read any edition of "What's Brewing" and you will see that CAMRA also recognises as "real" bottle conditioned ales and traditional ciders. Furthermore CAMRA has a huge range of other beer-related interests and activities, including that of actual pub buildings.


Furthermore, you would also see that many pubs have been removed from the Godd Beer Guide because the quality of their beer, albeit "real" is sub-standard. And, by the way, CAMRA would not remove a pub from the Good Beer Guide if it served other than Real Ale; CAMRA is about choice and recognises that there are people who prefer Budweiser to beer; Scrumpy Jack to cider - and accepts that a pub may wish to provide such drinks - as it may also choose to serve tea, coffee and orange juice. The criterion for consideration for inclusion in the GBG is that the pub does serve at least one properly kept Real Ae.

CAMRA does not recognise as "real" any beer or cider that has been pasteurised and flitered no matter how it is dispensed - even if it were to be drawn straight from the container. However, the method of dispense (as opposed to storage and conditioning) is not something that CAMRA takes a view on, just so long as it does not rely on externally applied carbon dioxide pressure (which, CAMRA suggests, will lead to over-carbonation). Beer engines, electric pumps or gravity are all acceptable methods of dispense.

Insofar as the question of the carbon-dioxide blanket is concerned, this has been a hotly-debated matter for some years. CAMRA is run on democratic lines and, to date, the "anti-blanket" lobby has always won the vote whenever the matter is raised at a general meeting. That it is so often, and so hotly, debated proves to my satisfaction that CAMRA is far from being a static and "closed-minded" organisation.

If any of you wish to vote on the matter yourself, you have the right so to do if you are a CAMRA member; indeed, you could even arrange to have the matter tabled at the AGM and speak in defence of the blanket if you wish.

For what it's worth I would prefer to see a low-pressure blanket used if the alternative were a keg beer, or no beer at all. But that's my view and has not so far been the view of the majority who vote on the matter in CAMRA.

CAMRA fights for the preservation of other traditional styles of beer as well - including Lambics. Again, all CAMRA members will be well aware of this as will those who visited the GBBF and went to the foreign beer bars with their huge range of traditional products from all over the world.

The criticism of CAMRA expressed here is common enough but it is based on belief, not fact, and I have already made my point about beliefs. If any such criticism has a place, it could maybe be levelled against the oldest beer "protection" society in England - the Society for the Preservation of Beer from the Wood (SPPW); it is not true of CAMRA.

CAMRA is a fine organisation and is the only hope that we traditional beer drinkers have of preserving our favourite brews. The threat from the mega-fizz manufacturers is ever present and they have the time, money and resources to wait. Fewer than one in 250 UK beer-drinkers supports CAMRA but just see what CAMRA has done already. Just think what it could do with more support.

Just think how the quality and choice of of Real Ale would improve if it were to be drunk by just 50% of UK beer drinkers instead of the present less than 20% (and falling).

Just think how the whole Real Ale movement would benefit if the same kind of promotional spend were to be devoted to Real Ale as is presently devoted to fizz.

Don't sit there knocking the only organisation that stands up for the Real Ale drinker - join it!

[Dr J]

Originally posted by studentofbeer

As far as scalpers, how different is it from the US? I mean, it's illegal here too but it's not like anyone hides it. ive gotten plenty of cubs tickets this way. the only problem is you often pay a significant premium.

edit: we also may have a night at a hotel in birmingham... they are away but is there any other team close by that's accessible? thinking about leicester city maybe? [/B]

Aston Villa is the cross town rival of Birmingham so they may be in town. As to scalping, the transactions are much less obvious than you would see in Wrigleyville. Some sellers will want to go inside a business or other facility and not risk conducting business in the open. The premium just depends on the quality of the match. Man Utd v. Chelsea - take out a loan. Wolves v. Chelsea - not much over face.

[Kalleh1]

MeridianFC, while this is waaay late, thanks so much for your post about 4 CAMRA groups in the U.S., with the link and all! I definitely want to join one. However, how can Nebraska represent the Midwest??? Really! I would love to see a Chicago CAMRA group, especially since we have a fair number of pubs now that have cask-conditioned beer, and we get many bottle-conditioned beers from the U.K. We deserve our own group! Would you know how to start one? Steveh and I could start one (Steve??? Are you here????)

[studentofbeer]

yeah chicago camra! the more cask ale in this city the better.

Dr J and Meridian, thanks for the help with football. now birmingham is out again, so it looks like a london-based team will be my only chance. anyone know anything about how hard getting tix for liverpool would be? my mom has a friend there that invited us to stay, but id think getting tickets for a liverpool game would be tough too.

[chazwicke]

Another good reason to support CAMRA is that they produce outstanding guides to good drinking establishments not only in England but other countries such as Belgium as well. But again, they deserve support based soley on the fact that they saved cask ale. For that reason alone i will be a member for life. All of the other benefits are just added bonuses.

[MeridianFC]

originally posted by Richard English
Just think how the quality and choice of of Real Ale would improve if it were to be drunk by just 50% of UK beer drinkers instead of the present less than 20% (and falling).

True. I can even tell at this point the difference between the amount of real ale available now (and the good condition that most it's in) and when I first visited the UK nearly 15 years ago.

originally posted by studentofbeer
anyone know anything about how hard getting tix for liverpool would be? my mom has a friend there that invited us to stay, but id think getting tickets for a liverpool game would be tough too.

It is very difficult to get tickets to Anfield. The capacity of the ground does not near approach the demand. Even their relatively poor run of form of late has not abated demand that much. Like anything it's not impossible providing you're willing to spend some serious £. Again trying one of the supporters groups might help. I'm on another message board http://www.bigsoccer.com you might have some luck posting in the Liverpool section there to see if someone can sort you out. I've had mixed results with this in the past.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...BUT. I think the problem that CAMRA has is that it focusses almost entirely on the method of dispensing beer:
Cask good all else bad.
And that is over simplistic. CAMRA would not consider an ale as "real" unless it was delivered this way. ..."

I have to assume that you are not a member of CAMRA otherwise you would know that this is just not true.


Well perhaps we should take a look at their own web-site
CAMRA's explanation of "real" ale (http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.ASP?WCI=ShowDoc&DocID=2243)

According to this all beer that isn't cask conditioned must be filtered and pasteurized and flavourless. That simply isn't true.

Don't get me wrong I think CAMRA is, for the most part a great organization. I don't think it would be the right organization for the USA, however, as it defines the craft beer market in far too rigid terms.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Another good reason to support CAMRA is that they produce outstanding guides to good drinking establishments not only in England but other countries such as Belgium as well. But again, they deserve support based soley on the fact that they saved cask ale. For that reason alone i will be a member for life. All of the other benefits are just added bonuses.

And I agree with everything that Chaz said above.

[Richard English]

Quote "...According to this all beer that isn't cask conditioned must be filtered and pasteurized and flavourless...."

Well, I've read that passage many times and have now re-read it in case it's changed. And it hasn't. And it doesn't say, or imply, what you suggest. Indeed, it even talks about real lager.

Furthermore their website talks here http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.asp?WCI=ShowCat&CatId=9 about Real Cider (incidentally, for the benefit of US readers, in the UK cider is an alcoholic drink, often a very strong one. In the USA what we call cider I believe you call "hard cider".

CAMRA also recognises bottle-conditioned beers as "real" and their site has a list of them here http://www.camra.org.uk/SHWebClass.ASP?WCI=ShowDoc&DocID=3070

And so far as whether or not it's right for the USA - can anyone give me an example of how CAMRA "...defines the craft beer market in far too rigid terms...."

As those who read What's Brewing regularly will know, American craft breweries, and beers, are covered extensively - CAMRA is not a chauvinistic organisation and gives full credit where credit is due. There was an excellent full page feature not so long ago on Goose Island entitled, as I recall, "...More fruit than Wrigley's..." - an excellent play on Chicago's well-known chewing gum manufacturer and most appropriate given the strength, fruitiness and quality of Goose Island's IPA.

As I have implied, don't knock CAMRA if you haven't tried it. At least read What's Brewing for an issue or two and you'll be in a better position to give informed criticism.

[denver brewhoo]

Student of beer: We (my wife and I) are Chelsea supporters and we will be in London around the same time you are. Don't have the fixtures in front of me but I believe one Saturday is Wolves and the next is Fulham or vice versa...couldn't buy for either last time we tried but I guarantee that when they open up sales to non-members there will be tickets available for Wolverhampton

...last year around the same time we saw Man City (five nil, and Zola had a beautiful goal and an even more beautiful assist, we stopped for dinner at an Italian restaurant on the sort of dodgy part of the King's Road near the experimental theater, and all the waiters were wearing Zola jerseys)

...wouldn't hold out much hope for Fulham, it being not only a London derby but a borough Derby....

I will say this, there's also the chance of either a Champion's league match, if Chelsea get by Stuttgart, or an FA Cup match--these would be midweek, and they're not covered by season tickets, etc...this is why one of the other posters so easily got into a League Cup match in the fall.

As for Theakston, to answer the question of what else you might be, well you might support Manchester City...I thought most of the Man U support was from outside of Manchester anyway and all the locals support Citeh? Just kidding, sorry about Wolves away though...Unfortunately the next day my club had a scoreless draw at the Bridge vs. Birmingham City, thus wasting a golden opportunity to pick up some ground....

PS, Student of Beer, be unique among Americans, support Chelsea---everyone here either follows The World's Greatest Football Club (TM) [Manchester United], or, because of Fever Pitch, Arsenal. Know that once you choose a team you're stuck with it for life, so choose a club that plays the beautiful game as it should be played.

(ducks head, anticipating the flood of Chel$ki commentary to follow...)

[Richard English]

It's fascinating how this particular thread has developed into two separate topics, one of which I am very knowledgeable about and the other where my knowledge is as near zero as it could be.

Though, to be fair, I did have an interesting chat with a man when I was in the Banks's' pub at Fiveways (Birmingham) and it turned out that he was a great football enthusiast (he came from the Potteries). Apparently there's a footballer called Stanley Matthews who comes from there?

That's it. You've now drained me completely of my knowledge of football and I'll contribute no more to this topic!

[studentofbeer]

sorry richard. we can try arguing about camra some more!

you just must realize that anytime i find a television with fox sports world i just sit there entranced for hours watching all the football they show, and i dont watch much tv normally. so the chance to see a premier league game live and in person is very exciting.

unfortunately denver, im going to be in town for the fulham game and not the wolves! i shoulda planned this trip around football and not my gf's spring break schedule.

where do i find this "what's brewing" source? im always on the lookout for any decent beer-related publication as i haven't really found many yet.

[Richard English]

What's Brewing is CAMRA's monthly newspaper. All members receive a copy FOC. Just go to the CAMRA website http://www.camra.org.uk and sign up and you'll get your copy (plus you'll get discounts on all CAMRA products and festivals)

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...According to this all beer that isn't cask conditioned must be filtered and pasteurized and flavourless...."

Well, I've read that passage many times and have now re-read it in case it's changed. And it hasn't. And it doesn't say, or imply, what you suggest.

Well Then I guess you missed this:
" With a brewery conditioned or keg beer, the aim is to produce a product with a long shelf life, which is ready to drink as soon as it leaves the brewery. The conditioning in the brewery is completed, the beer is chilled and filtered to remove all the yeast, and pasteurised to make a sterile product. ...Filtration and pasteurisation remove flavour and character from the product......Keg beers are generally served very cold to disguise the taste, or lack of it. "

I don't want to get into a pissing match over the virtues of CAMRA. Especially as I do recognise it's value and have been a member over several years (albeit in the '80s). I do think that they promote a mindset that anything out of a keg can't possibly be worth drinking. And I've heard that reaction from UK CAMRA members time and again.

Because of the history of keg beers in the UK, I can understand the knee jerk reaction, but in the US there simply isn't the tradition of cask ales. It is something that will need to be built from the ground up. In the meantime we have some excellent unfiltered and unpasteurized keg ales that are as good if not better than a bad cask ale (like John Smiths).

I'm glad to hear that they are beginning to recognize US craft breweries. I must read "What's brewing" more often.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo

As for Theakston, to answer the question of what else you might be, well you might support Manchester City...I thought most of the Man U support was from outside of Manchester anyway and all the locals support Citeh? Just kidding, sorry about Wolves away though...

OK I'll pass on the chel$ski's comments. When I was at school in Manchester, the support was probably about 70/30 for Manchester United over City. Back then was the era of George Best, Bobbie Charlton and Dennis Law. But then Dennis Law joined City and famously scored the goal that put United into the second division. It's a popular myth that people from Manchester support "the other team". But it is amazing how widespread support for Man U is world wide. I find it goes against the grain because we brit's have a long established tradition of rooting for the "underdog" (probably because that nearly always is us)

[chazwicke]

I have seen the Old Sarum Can pictured. I am looking for any of these 5 litre cans that I can purchase or trade for. Here is what Oxford Bottled Beer Database says about this new development on the British brewing scene:

A mini-cask is a fairly new innovation in beer selling in the UK, where the beer is sold in a small metal cask (typically 5 litres) as live beer (i.e. containing live yeast sediment). The resulting beer is therefore real ale, and the taste and condition of the beer is much closer to a pint of real ale served in a pub.

Anyone else seen or tasted them?

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Theakston
But then Dennis Law joined City and famously scored the goal that put United into the second division.

Actually (he says adjusting his ill fitting anorak) it was Wolves winning that sent Man U down. No result in the derby would have seen them stay up.

It's very difficult in the lower division as City fans are very, very well aware.

It's a popular myth that people from Manchester support "the other team"

Almost all the folks I know from Madchester are red. I'll refrain from comment about those puir wee unfortuantes that aren't.

Oh, and to keep this on topic, cask ale is great, CAMRA is great, there is great keg beer, etc.

:eek:

[barley ben]

you just must realize that anytime i find a television with fox sports world i just sit there entranced for hours watching all the football they show

Just be thankful that you get lucky enough to find that. The only football I ever find on television is on TV Telemundo!!! That's the spanish channel and I don't know but maybe 2 words of spanish. I love it anyway. Only find a couple of European games, but I'm in heaven everytime I find one!!!!

[Richard English]

Quote "...Well Then I guess you missed this..."

No. I saw it. And it certainly castigates keg beer - and rightly so. But it doesn't say, or even imply, that "...all beer that isn't cask conditioned must be filtered and pasteurized and flavourless...."

Were it to have done so then I would agree with you about CAMRA's "...refusal to recognise other beer varieties than cask-conditioned draught beer..." which was the basic thrust of your argument.

That "...they promote a mindset that anything out of a keg can't possibly be worth drinking..." I do not disagree with in any way. It has been my own experience over many years that this is essentially correct - but that's a very different matter.

It seems likely that we are suffering from a difference in interpretation of the expression "keg". The original meaning of the term was "...A small barrel usually of less than 10 gallons (or in the US 30 gallons..." (OED). In other words, a small cask in the UK; a larger one in the USA.

However, in the UK (but not, it seems, the USA) the term "keg beer" has come to mean "...Beer to which carbon dioxide has been added in a sealed metal container, from which it is supplied..." (OED). Such beer must be flitered and pasteurised otherwise it would not be stable and the container could not be sealed for fear of an explosion.

This latter definition is the one to which CAMRA's description of "Keg Beer" applies.

You say, "...In the meantime we have some excellent unfiltered and unpasteurized keg ales that are as good if not better than a bad cask ale (like John Smiths)...." The drink you are speaking of is not Keg Beer as we in the UK understand the term. "...Unfiltered and unpasteurized ales..." will be cask beer (Real Ale) by CAMRA's definition and I would be interested to know how you feel they differ.

So far as recognition of craft breweries is concerned, CAMRA has recognised thatm and reported on them, ever since the revival of proper breweing started in the USA, back in the 1980s. As you say, it's a good idea to keep up to date; indeed I suspect that many of the comments we all hear from time to time about CAMRA are based on out-of-date information.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Richard English
.

You say, "...In the meantime we have some excellent unfiltered and unpasteurized keg ales that are as good if not better than a bad cask ale (like John Smiths)...." The drink you are speaking of is not Keg Beer as we in the UK understand the term. "...Unfiltered and unpasteurized ales..." will be cask beer (Real Ale) by CAMRA's definition and I would be interested to know how you feel they differ.


I think this might be part of the confusion. In the US we have several levels of packaging and presentation that, while they make for great beer, do not meet CAMRA's criteria.

There are several US beer that I can think of that are not filtered or pasteurized but still are forced pressurized or are served by CO2 dispense. They meet 2/3 of CAMRA's guidelines but don't make it all the way.

I think we should agree for future that, in the UK forum at least, "keg Beer" refers to filtered, pasteurized, force pressurized beer served by CO2/Nitro or CO2 dispense (or any beer that has a combo of those things disqualifying it from being real ale). I believe this is how CAMRA usese the term almost exclusively, even though they accept that good beer can be made that fits the "rest of the world keg beer" definition, which is any beer (with any variable of filtering, pasteurizeing, pressurizing, dispense) seved in a large metal conatiner usually implying a 13.2 or 15.5 US gal. vessel (or local equivalent & not to exclude other sizes from 5l on up).

Cripes that sounds like some UN lawyer.

In short as I understand it "keg beer" in the context we're using it here refers to the beer in the UK and refers to the vessel elsewhere.

[Richard English]

Quote "...In short as I understand it "keg beer" in the context we're using it here refers to the beer in the UK and refers to the vessel elsewhere..."

I think that puts it very well. I have tried to make this point in the past but it's always difficult to explain such nice distinctions. In the USA so many things are different - even US ounces and pints differ from Imperial ones - that confusion is sometimes unavoidable.

As I mentioned earlier, CAMRA's position on carbon dioxide blankets has been hotly debated and I myself feel it is sometimes an issue on which they are oversensitive. One problem is, of course, that once you allow a blanket you are opening up the possibility of over-carbonation for one simple reason. A very low pressure blanket will have little effect on the beer's taste and, furthermore, will help preserve it. However, very low pressure will mean very slow delivery and thus many barmen will turn up the pressure valve to increase flow. Once the applied carbon dioxide significantly exceeds atmospheric pressure it will disolve into the beer, making it fizzy. That is what the anti-blanket lobby are concerned about and I have to confess that I feel they have a point.

My own feeling is that and bar owner who wanted to serve unpasteurised and unfiltered beer would be better advised to eschew gas pressure dispense since is is a method that can so easily be abused. If a normal handpump cannot be installed, then an electric pump is a simple and cheap alternative that avoids any possibility of over-carbonation.

[Theakston]

Originally posted by Richard English
1] However, in the UK (but not, it seems, the USA) the term "keg beer" has come to mean "...Beer to which carbon dioxide has been added in a sealed metal container, from which it is supplied..." (OED). Such beer must be flitered and pasteurised otherwise it would not be stable and the container could not be sealed for fear of an explosion.

2] You say, "...In the meantime we have some excellent unfiltered and unpasteurized keg ales that are as good if not better than a bad cask ale (like John Smiths)...." The drink you are speaking of is not Keg Beer as we in the UK understand the term. "...Unfiltered and unpasteurized ales..." will be cask beer (Real Ale) by CAMRA's definition and I would be interested to know how you feel they differ.



Just to respond to the 2 points above, then I think we have it covered.
1) Keg beer does not need to be filtered or pasteurized. It will be conditioned in a conditioning tank at the brewery and will be then dispensed into a keg. It won't explode as there is no additional "Secondary" fermentation or conditioning going on.

2) No it won't be accepted as real ale by CAMRA on 2 counts:
it is not conditioned in the vessel in which it is served
and has to have extraneous CO2 applied to it.


Yes there is a great deal of misunderstandings , on both sides of the Atlantic, about what is Keg vs Cask. There are more interpretations in the USA. There's a lot of middle gound between the extremes of the spectrum from a CAMRA real ale to a filtered, sterilized and over gassed up keg of the nasty "Watneys Red barrel" or slightly less nasty "Creamflow" Guinness style systems.

In the UK there really is no "middle ground" like this (except perhaps cask breathers). If you produce a craft product why not make it as a real ale according to CAMRA definitions? your market would require it and the pubs are certainly capable of handling and serving it.

However in the states the distribution set up(breweries have no control over it), the extremes of temperature (even if we had cellars), the lack of training in keeping these ales fresh on and dispensing them properly, all make it very difficult to produce a satisfactory ale this way.

Meridian you wrapped it up well so I'll zoom over to the other thread about "breathers" and leave this thread to be rescued as the thread about footie. or pubs in london or whatever.

[chris_o]

Originally posted by MeridianFC

In and around the capital worth seeing (by division):

Premiership
Arsenal
Charlton Athletic (can be a trek, but worth it)
Chelsea
Tottenham Hotspur
Fulham (they are playing at Loftus Road, QPR's ground, for now)

First
Crystal Palace
Brentford (a pub in all four corners of the ground!)
Watford
West Ham United

Third
Leyton Orient



No mention of the mighty Queens Park Rangers?

There would be NO problem in getting in to see Leyton Orient. Whether you would want to is another matter entirely.

[chris_o]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I can recommend a few in the Westminster Victoria area. The Two chairs and Buckingham Arms being the best. Others in the area are Westminster Arms, Cask and Glass, The Colonies, Adam & Eve, The Albert, Bag O Nails (I was disappointed on my last stop there), Weatherspoons in Victoria Station for its selection. In Kensington I recommend The Britannia, a fine Youngs pub. Kensington / Notting Hill area: Churchill Arms (Fullers.) As stated before, ONLY drink REAL ALE from the hand pumps. You will not be disappointed!

I work in Westminster and have frequented all those pubs that Chazwicke mentions on a pretty regular basis. My favourites from them are the Cask and Glass (Shepherd Neame - on Palace Street) and the Buckingham (Youngs - on Petty France). The Albert is a bit touristy. The Wetherspoons in Victoria Station is OK, but if you come out of the station, there is another Wetherspoons (I forget the name) on Wilton Road, which has more of a pub atmosphere. However, my favourite in that area (and my local) is the Speaker on Great Peter Street which, in addition to three regular beers usually has an over-changing guest from a microbrewery. Best of all, you would probably run into me there.

Notting Hill was also one of my stamping grounds and in addition to the Churchill and the Britannia, I would add the Uxbridge Arms (Uxbridge Street) and the Windsor Castle (Campden Hill Road).

[chris_o]

Originally posted by PocketLobster
I'll be staying near the South Kensington tube station, thanks for all the info.

The Anglesea Arms on Selwood Terrace is the premier pub in the area, and within spitting distance of South Ken tube station.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Cask and Glass (Shepherd Neame - on Palace Street)..."

But don't go in there with a crowd (say five people) as it's probably the smallest pub I know!

[chris_o]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...Cask and Glass (Shepherd Neame - on Palace Street)..."

But don't go in there with a crowd (say five people) as it's probably the smallest pub I know!

You've not been to the Nutshell in Bury St Edmungs then?

The lack of space at the C&G can be a problem, expecially if the weather precludes the use of the tables outside (likely) but at least you have every chance of getting to know people.

[chazwicke]

Ive been in both, The Nutshell and the Cask and Glass. I sat at one of the outside tables at the G & G as it was summer (Albiet during your heat wave last August!) The Nutshell is neat. I was taken down in the cellar by the publican one October evening for a little tour. She told us that there were lots of tunnels dug under the town by the monks. I also recall the remains of a black cat being attached to the ceiling. She guessed it to be approx. 900 years old. Said it had come from the walls of a nearby building. Apparently it was superstition that a black cat put between the walls would ward off bad luck back then. Had a great tour of Greene King by one of the brewers. We went to Bury St. Edmunds specifically because in 1989 we were able to get Abbot Ale here in the States and we wanted to get it at the source. I can't believe it has been that long since I took that trip. I remember it well and I know I have some photos somewhere of the tour and the interior of the Nutshell. Dead cat and all.

[chris_o]

Originally posted by chazwicke
The Nutshell is neat. I also recall the remains of a black cat being attached to the ceiling. Had a great tour of Greene King by one of the brewers. We went to Bury St. Edmunds specifically because in 1989 we were able to get Abbot Ale here in the States and we wanted to get it at the source. I can't believe it has been that long since I took that trip.

Probably time for another visit then. Since you were last there, a excellent brewpub called the Old Cannon has opened and better still, it has good accomodation. And you can get the full range of Bartrams bottle conditioned ales in Barwells grocery shop. The mummified cat was still in the Nutshell when I last visited a few months ago.

I would thoroughly recommend Bury St Edmunds as an outing for anyone. The Greene King brewey tour is a very good one and we got a sample of all the Greene King beers (and that includes the old Ruddles and Morland beers now brewed at Bury St Edmunds) - more than a dozen in all. Just a shame that Greene King shut them down. And Bury St Edmunds itself is a very interesting town from an architectural point of view.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by chris_o
I work in Westminster and have frequented all those pubs that Chazwicke mentions on a pretty regular basis. My favourites from them are the Cask and Glass (Shepherd Neame - on Palace Street) and the Buckingham (Youngs - on Petty France). The Albert is a bit touristy. The Wetherspoons in Victoria Station is OK, but if you come out of the station, there is another Wetherspoons (I forget the name) on Wilton Road, which has more of a pub atmosphere. However, my favourite in that area (and my local) is the Speaker on Great Peter Street which, in addition to three regular beers usually has an over-changing guest from a microbrewery. Best of all, you would probably run into me there.

Notting Hill was also one of my stamping grounds and in addition to the Churchill and the Britannia, I would add the Uxbridge Arms (Uxbridge Street) and the Windsor Castle (Campden Hill Road).

Chris, I'll be over in May and I'll check out The Speaker. What time do you usually drink there. I'd buy you a pint or two if your there when I am. After all, anyone who enjoys casl ale and has Frank Zappa as his avitar can't be all bad. :)

[IPAfanatic]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread so I'm not sure what's been covered, so sorry for any redundancy. Anyway, I was recently in London for Spring break and had a great time exploring the pubs around town. The pubs that I really enjoyed, mostly for the atmosphere, were The World's End and Shakespeares Head. THe one that blew me away was the Cheshire Cheese. It was REbuilt in 1667 (hard to believe for someone who's country is younger than that).

The pub experience was quite eye-opening and left me with a void that can't be filled in Minnesota due to the atmosphere found in the oversaturating sports bars.

[Richard English]

The Cheshire Cheese is one of the more famous old pubs in London but is none the worse for that. The George in Southwark is another interesting old pub that was built just after Shakespeare died. It still has the old galleries that many coaching inns of the period had.

When Coumbus first sailed to the New World, the Trip to Jerusalem, in Nottingham, had already been serving beer to thirsty travellers for over 300 years - as it still serves the students from Nottingham University today.

England is a very old country - a fact that we sometimes tend to take rather for granted, I fear.

[MeridianFC]

While a bit further afield, I'm always amazed when I think that the New Town in Edinburgh dates from the 18th Century!

In one of his comedy routines, Eddie Izzard pokes some fun at the American sense of history, ("This building is 50 years old!"). We do tend to raze and pave things when they get a bit long in the tooth. Granted in some cases it's deserved, but when I think of the architecture that's been lost, just in my lifetime, it gives me pause.