Bohemian Standoff? [Archive] - Realbeer.com Beer Community

chazwicke

01-09-2007, 01:09 PM

I'm a bit worried about this deal too. I'd hate to see Budvar get back doored somehow. I wonder if AB will have a say about product placement in the stores? Also I wonder if AB is making nice to worm their way into aquiring Budvar since they were not successful previously.

corkybstewart

01-09-2007, 01:16 PM

I'm with Hogie on this one. I'd like to be able to get a sixer once in a while.

Besides, we can trust the benevolence of Budweiser to make sure everything is handled properly. Can't we?

steveh

01-09-2007, 01:37 PM

A quick question: Is Budvar not readily available in the south and west? It's been on shelves here in the Chicago area for years (even without A-B help).

My concern is that A-B has been at odds with Budvar for so long over the name ownership, all of a sudden they're buddy-buddy?

"'After years of differences, this is a meaningful step for two great brewers to form a relationship that is good for both of our businesses," said August A. Busch IV, A-B's CEO. "For Anheuser-Busch, it also represents an opportunity to enhance our import portfolio with a super-premium Czech import. Working with our family of wholesalers, we look forward to introducing Czechvar to a new audience of beer lovers.'"

Riiight...let's bury the hatchet, "No - not in yer head, boy!"

"...we look forward to introducing Czechvar (not Budvar) to a new audience of beer lovers..." and then dropping them from US distribution completely in order to stem any competition over the name... Skeptical? Me?

S.

Edit - reading deeper: "...previously sold in 30 states by Distinguished Brands..."

Wilson

01-09-2007, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by steveh
A quick question: Is Budvar not readily available in the south and west? It's been on shelves here in the Chicago area for years (even without A-B help).

No, its available in Texas, but I've never seen it in the Deep South. If this partnership changes that, I'm all for it. Didnt Goose Island do a "back door" deal with A-B? I've yet to see any of that down here, so I wont hold my breath.

Seymour

01-09-2007, 02:09 PM

It's available routinely in my part of Texas. Two years ago I found it in Montgomery, AL...but that was two years ago.

steveh

01-09-2007, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Wilson
Didnt Goose Island do a "back door" deal with A-B?

In a way, but Goose Island hadn't been at odds with A-B over trademark infringment for umpteen years.

Sorry to see it hasn't helped put Goose into more hands, have you asked your local store owner or distributor contact?

S.

HogieWan

01-09-2007, 03:02 PM

A-B has been trying to secure distribution deals with micros and, lately, imports. They are trying to make an extra buck anywhere they can for now, so it doesn't surprise me. What they may do in the future is up in the air. I just hope Budejovicky has a few good lawyers to check that contract.

newportstorm

01-09-2007, 04:11 PM

A-B needs new beer brands to invigorate flat sales and appease unhappy distributors who signed on to sell and distribute only A-B products. While that worked for awhile, craft beer's recent boom (solid growth over the past 5 years) made those distros seethe as their sales of Bud (and related products) weren't enjoying the same growth.

While A-B could screw with Czechvar's product placement, delivery, freshness, etc., why would they? They'd be trading legal fees for import fees on beer they'd like to see not sell? Makes little sense. And if A-B did drop distribution completely, you don't think another importer would snap the brand up?

A-B is in the beer business of making money - be it with their beer or somebody else's.

Cheers!

HogieWan

01-09-2007, 04:55 PM

Originally posted by newportstorm

A-B is in the beer business of making money - be it with their beer or somebody else's.

exactly

Lew Bryson

01-09-2007, 05:00 PM

Couple points. First, A-B is working with Bitburger, and they got in a big row with them over World Cup placement. The A-B guys went over to meet with Bitburger, sat down and talked, they liked each other, and...now Bitburger is A-B's distributor in Germany. The guys at A-B told me it was a surprise to them, but that it worked out so well they might be looking at other deals. This was in August, so the Czechvar thing had to be in the works already, as was the InBev deal...which is huge.

Second, as someone already mentioned, A-B is in business to make money. If they can sell Czechvar, and sell a lot of it, they're going to be happy...and so are their wholesalers, who are really happy about selling Corona now.

Finally, I haven't really seen A-B gut any brewers it's settled in with. Goose Island sucking lately? Widmer, Redhook? If you've got issues with Redhook or Widmer's beers, I strongly suggest that it's coming from them, NOT A-B. A-B doesn't WANT them to produce insipid beers, they want them to be credible craft brewers that will provide A-B wholesalers with a solid portfolio of stuff that's all in the A-B extended family.

These guys are NOT stupid. Acquisitive, capitalistic, yes. They should be. But they're really not stupid.

Stonch

01-09-2007, 06:17 PM

I don't think this news is worrying the least. The real concern with Budvar is whether a future government will be willing to sell its stake (remember the brewery is part state owned), meaning the beer might go the same way as Pilsner Urquell - lagering times reduced, the brand trashed by allowing brewers abroad to brew under license...

The fact that A-B are distributors in one country (albeit a very big market) doesn't really matter either way - it won't change the beer.

On the other hand, if the Czech government decide to sell up in the face of public opposition, no doubt A-B will get in there as a bidder which WOULD worry me.

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Sladek

01-09-2007, 06:25 PM

Hmmmm...to me, this is allying oneself with the Devil.

And anyway, Czechvar hung up its shabby old brown clothes for a new, clean green suit. Which, of course, means that by the time it gets to the store shelves in NM, or MN, or anywhere in the U.S....

Stonch

01-09-2007, 06:38 PM

Arguably, calling a beer which is known as Budvar everywhere else "Czechvar" is allying oneself with the devil! ;)

Agree with you about the green bottle - such a shame. One thing I love in the Czech Republic (used to live there and visit often) is that almost all bottled beer is sold in the same brown 500ml bottles, which are sold on deposit, returned and reused. Such a good way of doing things. Bottled Czech beer served out of anything else isn't the same for me!

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jjpm74

01-09-2007, 08:47 PM

What I don't get about the entire setup is that the two breweries are still involved in roughly 40 lawsuits worldwide over usage of the name Budvar/Budweiser. Isn't this a conflict of interest? How bad was their distro before? Where I am, Czechvar is and has been available at the grocery store's beer aisle; a place where very few non-macros ever see the light of day and I've been seeing commercials for their beer for years. I don't see any advantage in this from Budvar's standpoint. From Budweiser's standpoint, they are desperate for more brands in a market getting increasingly wary of their watery product.

HogieWan

01-09-2007, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by jjpm74
How bad was their distro before? Where I am, Czechvar is and has been available at the grocery store's beer aisle; a place where very few non-macros ever see the light of day

where I am, Chimay has always been in the grocery cooler, but nothing else - go figure

stronk

01-10-2007, 04:43 AM

These guys are NOT stupid. Acquisitive, capitalistic, yes. They should be. But they're really not stupid.
I think the fear in this thread is something like the fears of CAMRA whenever there is a brewery consolidation in the UK. However, in the UK the brewery usually is gutted and the range of beers is reduced . This is because the big UK breweries are into aggressive competition.

They are so close to each other geographically that they really feel the effects of competition and so, in their eyes, running the rival breweries after acquisition would be a bad idea because:
1. They would be competing with themselves.
2. The fact that they were able to buy them suggests that they were failing anyway.
3. With the money made from the rival site, the current brewery site could be expanded and all the equipment installed there and the potential volume of the current brands could be vastly increased.

Whether or not this is applicable in the US is another question, but it is certainly applicable in Europe, where AB have been trying to acquire Budvar.

EDIT: And how many Budvar drinkers really care who brews their beer, now? It is almost a victim of its own success: it is now more secure, but if anyone could acquire it, they'd be more than happy to transfer production to larger breweries and shut the Czech brewery down in the interests of efficiency.

paulcgi

01-10-2007, 08:17 AM

Were it not for AB's involvment, I'd be singing the Happy Happy Joy Joy song.. I absolutely love Budvar but can't get it around here. When I ask for it, the store clerks go "you mean budweiser? we have that!"
I'm getting tired of having to explain the difference.
but I am so excited to maybe be able to get Budvar locally. I've been having my FIL bring it with him from Europe when they visit, and when we go there, he knows already, a case of Budvar, nothing else.
the more I think about it...

Happy happy joy joy, happy happy joy joy!

MeridianFC

01-10-2007, 10:59 AM

Even though I am not a fan of Czech/Budvar in it's imported format* (been here in DC for years), there is something not right about this. AB seems to be in aquire and conquer mode.

*I've been told that nothing outside of the Czech Republic can compare to the Budvar got fresh there but I've never had the pleasure and so cannot comment.

chazwicke

01-10-2007, 11:38 AM

I've supped it at it's source. It is a fine brew. When I was at the brewery in the early 90s, they were hosting a wedding party / reception there and we were invited into the party.

HogieWan

01-10-2007, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by paulcgi
and when we go there, he knows already, a case of Budvar, nothing else.

you may need to seek out others that the old continent has to offer

steveh

01-10-2007, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by HogieWan
you may need to seek out others that the old continent has to offer

I agree wholeheartedly. I sampled Budvar all around Germany and Austria when I had the chance - while good, I never understood the raves.

S.

paulcgi

01-10-2007, 01:14 PM

I dunno.. it's just the one that caught my attention. I've gone to the beer stores and put together mixed cases. you name it, as long as it was not regional only, I've probably tried it.
licher, diebels alt (this was the other one I always got),
cheap beers, expensive ones, and the budvar was the one that got my attention at the time.
I think a lot of it just depends on the situation, backpacking thru Italy and Hungary it seems like I never had a bad beer. If I had them again, in a different situation, it would probably be different. Next time, there might be some other beer, hard to say.

steveh

01-10-2007, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by paulcgi
I think a lot of it just depends on the situation, backpacking thru Italy and Hungary it seems like I never had a bad beer.

Quite true. It's why so many say Guinness tastes "different" in Ireland - it does because of your state of mind -- which is no bad thing.

S.

jjpm74

01-12-2007, 05:47 PM

Did you guys see the latest headlines in the A_B/Budvar legal dispute?

http://www.praguemonitor.com/ctk/?story_id=w49731i20070112;story=Anheuser-Busch-loses-to-Budvar-in-Portugal

I wonder if it'll put a damper on the distro deal?

De Hooter

01-14-2007, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by steveh
Quite true. It's why so many say Guinness tastes "different" in Ireland - it does because of your state of mind -- which is no bad thing.

S.

Not to mention that it comes from a different brewery, is not exposed to the same time and temperature influences as elsewhere, and there is conflicting information about the recipes.

So, yeah Guinness only tastes different because of your state of mind.

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but this is one of my pet peeves.

Yes, I've been to Ireland multiple times and I drink Guinness here in the States and have been to St James Gate.

That being said, while I do not know whether or not the beer brewed for foreign consumption is of a different formulation. I DO know that in Ireland the stuff only has to travel less than 300 miles from the brewery in a temperate climate that rarely has major temperature swings. That is much different than what happens to Guinness in the States.

OTOH, I do agree that your state of mind has some influence, but there are a lot of other factors in play.l

steveh

01-15-2007, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by De Hooter
Not to mention that it comes from a different brewery

There's conflicting information on that as well.

S.

steveh

01-17-2007, 02:25 PM

A little update on my own opinion of Budejovicky Budvar (the true original). I picked up a single bottle at a local paint store the other night - green, 12 oz bottle that seemed to be surviving the flourescents pretty well.

Great toasty, malty nose, clean malty flavor with a great balance of hops - more hops than I seem to remember in past Budvars, but not the Saaz bomb Urquell is (Zatec, for those wondering). Very nice traditional lager in my glass that would trump any US macro claiming the same lineage.

Funny thing is, it doesn't proclaim to be a Pilsner anywhere on the label. Just a "premium lager."

I hope A-B comes through on this venture for those of you who have never had the opportunity to sample this classic brew.

S.

Stonch

01-22-2007, 08:02 AM

Will they be introducing Budvar Dark in the US too? After something like a 50 year hiatus, Budvar started brewing this again a year or two ago. It was showcased at CAMRA beer festivals in England and drew lots of praise from a crowd that normally won't touch anything but a cask or bottle conditioned ale. It then started to become available in various pubs around London, but then started to disappear again and now I can only find it in one pub.

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chazwicke

01-22-2007, 08:27 AM

I've never had the dark. Was it bottled or on tap? The Budvar I've had in Czech Republic and Austria has been good. I like it here in the states too but I only buy from a sealed case and even then it is less fresh. Best place I sampled it was at the brewery. But I don't recall a dark version.

Stonch

01-22-2007, 09:03 AM

The dark version is pretty new and I don't think they produce it in especially high volumes. I've had it on tap in various London pubs (though now I only find it in one) and also at U Medvicku in Prague. It's a good beer but actually may be my least favourite Czech dark lager. It is a bigger beer than Kozel Cerne and Krusovice Cerne, two darks I find I can quaff very happily indeed when in Prague. And it simply doesn't compare to my favourite - the own-brew dark beer from the Strahov monastery micro up on in Hradcany.

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steveh

01-22-2007, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Stonch
It was showcased at CAMRA beer festivals in England and drew lots of praise from a crowd that normally won't touch anything but a cask or bottle conditioned ale.

What was it about the beer that drew the raves? Would a smooth Munich dark, such as Hofbrau Haus' example, receive as many accolades because its flavor character is more assertive than the usual Helles or Export?

S.

chazwicke

01-22-2007, 10:09 AM

I had two litres of their superb Dunkles at HB Las Vegas last weekend. They followed one litre of the Original which was also tasty. Clean and refreshing.

Stonch

01-22-2007, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by steveh
What was it about the beer that drew the raves? Would a smooth Munich dark, such as Hofbrau Haus' example, receive as many accolades because its flavor character is more assertive than the usual Helles or Export?

S.

Steve, in all honesty I think part the reason it drew so much praise from CAMRA is that Budvar is seen as "a real brewer" due to the traditional methods they still us that other Czech breweries have abandoned - the 90days lagering period for example. Couple with that the fact that Budvar have been kept out of the hands of the international brewing mob.

In terms of the beer itself, England is not a good country for lagers. Our own are terrible, and most fo the imports we get aren't too hot either. To answer your question - in terms of style, yes I think a Munich dark would be equally interesting to an English real ale drinker.

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steveh

01-22-2007, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Stonch
In terms of the beer itself, England is not a good country for lagers. Our own are terrible, and most fo the imports we get aren't too hot either.

Whenever I hear this (from the English) I always remember back to one of my first trips to the Oktoberfest in the early '90s. I spent the good part of the night into early morning in the bar at my hotel discussing the virtue of good beer with 3 or 4 young Englishmen.

They were enthralled to be in the home of the "light lager," because it was their favorite beer. I asked how it could be their favorite when they had so much good, regional beer at home - even cask conditioned. They could only make faces at the thought of ales. I can't recall their exact reasons, but I also couldn't argue their love of good (disclaimer) lager - though I did try to convince them to keep open and diverse minds.

S.

stronk

01-22-2007, 02:35 PM

Lagers are getting a bit more recognition in the UK, but their progress actually tends to be hindered rather than helped by some of the dinosaurs installed high up in CAMRA. CAMRA won't endorse a beer unless it's either cask-conditioned or bottle-conditioned. Although there have been a few cask-conditioned lagers around, the style just doesn't fit in a cask (the cask-fermentation gives them a wild note that doesn't fit with the clean flavour profile); IMO, anyway.

Stonch: you can still find Budvar dark around, but I don't know about on tap (where did you find it on tap, by the way?). I think Waitrose might do it in bottles and I know for sure that they sell it at Borough Market when the beer shop there is open.

Stonch

01-22-2007, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by stronk

Stonch: you can still find Budvar dark around, but I don't know about on tap (where did you find it on tap, by the way?). I think Waitrose might do it in bottles and I know for sure that they sell it at Borough Market when the beer shop there is open.

The Lord John Russell has it on tap - it was the first London pub to do so. It has a lot to do with the fact that the pub is situated on the same street (Marchmont St, Bloomsbury, nr. Russell Square) as Budvar's UK distribution offices!

The Waitrose I buy my beer form doesn't sell it, but I have heard that ASDA or Morrisons stock it sometimes. Personally, I haven't seen it bottled in any shops but its out there.

Cheers!

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chazwicke

01-23-2007, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by stronk
Lagers are getting a bit more recognition in the UK, but their progress actually tends to be hindered rather than helped by some of the dinosaurs installed high up in CAMRA. CAMRA won't endorse a beer unless it's either cask-conditioned or bottle-conditioned. Although there have been a few cask-conditioned lagers around, the style just doesn't fit in a cask (the cask-fermentation gives them a wild note that doesn't fit with the clean flavour profile); IMO, anyway.

While my first love is real ale, I've found myself drinking more and more lagers recently. There is certainly something to be said about a well made, crisp, clean, precision beer. Also I'm still enjoying some of the Ocktoberfest brews I bought during the season. I won't quite say I'm a little bored with American Pale Ales and IPAs. Just still enjoying a taste of the Fall I guess. There is definately room for quality lager in the beer world despite CAMRA (and I'm a Life Member) That being said, Real Ale remains my first love and I'm looking forward to my excursion to the UK in March.

stronk

01-23-2007, 10:16 AM

March? Fancy another pint, if I'm around? Give me a bell if you're going to be in London or Oxford.

denver brewhoo

01-23-2007, 12:48 PM

while I know what I like i'm not too good at writing about it....but this Czechvar has been on tap at my local Old Chicago since about 5 minutes after the deal that is the subject of this thread was announced and so I've had 5 or 6 of them (man does not live by Black Butte Porter and, erm, Blackjack Porter--theme there?-- alone...well he might do, but not me, just almost) and i've got to agree with Steve---it's nicely malty with much less of the pointedly Saaz character that an Urquell has, sort of a "rounder" beer all around.

I actually think there's a pronounced sort of creamy yeastiness to it, like I get in the first few pints of my kegged homebrewed lagers, not that that's a bad thing--well it may be a bad thing for a pilsener trying to match style guidelines, I'm to lazy to look 'em up--and certainly a little unexpected. Not unpleasant, just different.

The more I think about it the more I think it's like the sort of not-quite-off flavors you get if, as a homebrewer, you maybe primary a lager at the high end of the optimum range, you know, like 53-54 degrees fahrenheit as opposed to, say, 48-50--a little "funk", but of course not to Belgian levels or anywhere close.....maybe a little "sulfury" is the way to put it. Anybody else get that, or have I been served from a dodgy keg?

This is an interesting beer, I'm gonna have to have a bunch more. Obviously on draft from the keg there's none of the skunkiness the green bottles can engender.....

steveh

01-23-2007, 01:06 PM

That creaminess may just be a "softness" of body that you can only get in a good, double-decoction lager. And yeah, there's a certain amount of DMS and sulfur nose allowable in a light lager, but it's usually not terribly pronounced. How cold are they serving it?

Who knows, maybe Budvar is spiking their kegs with one last Kreusen before they head to the port?

S.

chazwicke

01-23-2007, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by stronk
March? Fancy another pint, if I'm around? Give me a bell if you're going to be in London or Oxford.

I'd love to. I'll be on an organized tour with my family and will only be in London a couple days at the beginning and one at the end. With 5 people in my group I figured this might be the best way to travel. I hate being locked into a schedule though. If it were just my son and I .... Anyway, I enjoyed meeting up last time and would love to get back to the White Horse again as well. I'll keep you and Richard posted and I'll do my best to slink away for a bit.

Stonch

01-23-2007, 06:06 PM

You may be disappointed if you go to the White Horse - it's gone downhill recently...

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chazwicke

01-24-2007, 09:37 AM

In Parsons Green? If that it true I'll be saddened. Stronk, My son and I enjoyed a few pints there last March and I enjoyed the place and company emensely.

Stonch

01-24-2007, 11:01 AM

No, sorry, I meant the White Horse on Broad Street in Oxford.

The White Horse in Parson's Green is holding an Old Ale festival on Saturday which I am going to, and which I will be writing up in my blog. I haven't visited the pub in about four years but will see what I think now. Write-up will appear on Sunday, I'd expect.

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chazwicke

01-24-2007, 11:09 AM

This is from the advert. for a tasting I'm attending this evening:

"we will finish the evening with one of the rarest beers on earth from Dave’s stash. A real oak keg of J W Lee’s Vintage Harvest Ale vintage1999.There is no guarantee on the condition of this extremely rare cask tho it has been stored in our cold storage unmoved for ohabout SEVEN years!"

Looking forward to this one.

Stronk, Are you attending the Old Ale Fest this weekend at White Horse, Parsons Green?

HogieWan

01-24-2007, 01:10 PM

chaz, I'm jealous

stronk

01-25-2007, 09:13 AM

Stronk, Are you attending the Old Ale Fest this weekend at White Horse, Parsons Green?
It's a really tough call, this one. I'm currently in Oxford (I agree about the White Horse on Broad Street, incidentally, Stonch) and have more than enough to do without traipsing off to London and back. But, then again, old ales are my favourite style of beer.

I almost wish I hadn't heard of it now! It reminds me that I recently heard that the Buena Vista Social Club are performing in Oxford on the 10th March, but there are no tickets left :(

chazwicke

01-25-2007, 11:06 AM

Buena Vista Social Club. Thank you Ry Cooder for calling attention to these guys. I've seen a documentary about them as well. I'd love to visit Cuba one day. Terrific music.

chazwicke

01-25-2007, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by HogieWan
chaz, I'm jealous

Twas Delish. Oakey, sweet, vanilla, no carbonation. Much like a port.

Dave actually happened to have three of these and the first two that he opened had turned to vinegar. Fortunately the the third was delightful.

Stonch

01-27-2007, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by chazwicke
I've never had the dark. Was it bottled or on tap? .

On tap. You can get it at the Lord John Russell on Marchmont St, Bloomsbury, if you want to try it. They tend to have it on tap at larger CAMRA festivals, but it always sells out pretty quick.

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stronk

01-27-2007, 04:55 PM

Yeah, but have you ever looked at the prices of kegged beer at a CAMRA festival and choked on your porter? They've become outrageous! Particularly the GBBF.

As for the pub: that's a pretty convenient location, if I get the internship I'm thinking of applying for. The office is in Russell Square. Thanks!