Water chemistry 101

[HogieWan]

I've been having chill haze problems for quite some time. My latest beer was made to have little flavor (for the wife and to test FWH) and I've noticed something "off" that's been present in all my pale brews. All my other pale brews had a non-trivial amount of CaraPils, and I was thinking I didn't like that malt, but it turns out that tannins are my problem.

The local water report online didn't list all the minerals homebrewers care about, but I've never been able to get the info from the local supplier. I called again yesterday and finally found the problem - my water is VERY high in bicarbonates. Here's the summary of the water profile:


pH - 8.2
Ca - 36
Mg - 8.4
Na - 20.2
SO4 - 9.9
Cl - 9.7
HCO3 - 157!!!


Since the SO4 is also low, gypsum should help. I've been playing with BeerSmith and reading Palmer's section on water chemistry. My next 2 beers will be a mild and a bitter, so a little gypsum and table salt will get me pretty close to London water, so that's what I'll use.

However, we have a freshwater fish tank. We have some buffering salts to bring the pH down. One is called "Discus Buffer" and it is monosodium phosphate. The other is called "neutral regulator" but I haven't found exactly what it is.

Can I use these to bring my pH down for brewing?

[Mad Scientist]

I would reccomend against it....you really do not know what those buffers will do to you or the taste of your brew....it may not kill the fish in the tank, but it could be harmful to you...

I go buy R.O. water, and add my minerals back in. I usually only add gypsum, but I sometime add some sea salt (no iodine) as well...though I have not really settled on an amount to add.

Besdies, adding R.O. water might infact be a bit cheaper than the cost of fish tank buffers.

[HogieWan]

the buffers are "phosphate based" buffers. My local water is VERY low in phosphates and they are an "unregulated contaminate" according to the local water report.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

I would go with BB on this one hogie, RO water or at least cheap drinking water at the store. I add a tablespoon of Burton Salts to my mash water and then use the bottled water plain in my sparge.

Also look at the current BYO they have plans for a really neat water filter that's good for upto 10,000 gallons of water.
They say it cleans the water just as good as a Pur water filter.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Otis_The_Drunk

They say it cleans the water just as good as a Pur water filter.

but those filters don't remove any minerals

I didn't really think I'd use those buffers for brewing, but the thought went through my head and I wanted to see if it might work

[HogieWan]

Looks like I'm going to start using an acid rest. What's the best water/grain ratio and time for this?

[HogieWan]

I was looking up info on Five Star's (makers of star san, pbw, etc) 5.2 pH Stabilizer (http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/tech/fivetwo.pdf) [pdf] and found out that it is a phosphate buffer similar to what I have, so maybe I'll use it after all.

[CiderJoe]

I have the same problems. Are there any good books on Basic Water Chem?

I don't want to get a PHD or anything, but the water where I live is high in Iron I think, and the bottled water I buy has 133 ppm HCO3. It's also low in other areas.

I know that boiling will reduce the HCO3 by half, so I end up with about 70 ppm for my mash. Is that still too high? I've often thought that one reason why my beer is always just alittle off in flavour, though still great to drink, is because of the water.

Cider

[HogieWan]

you can only cut down on the HCO3 by boiling if there is enough Ca to react with it. Check out Palmer's chapter on water chemistry (http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html)

[CiderJoe]

I have read that. I was interested in something alittle more in-depth. But I will go back and re-read that section.

Thanks,
Cider

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by CiderJoe
I have read that. I was interested in something alittle more in-depth. But I will go back and re-read that section.

Thanks,
Cider In depth: the late George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science.

[dparsons]

The gypsum has the Calcium in it that you need to drop the bicarbonate down in a boil, and since your Sulphur is low its a good thing to add. I add Calcium Chloride because my water has enough Sulphur.

You also might look into the phosphates some more. I use phosphoric acid (available at LHBS's) and have thought about the 5.2 product.

If you can tweak your water a little to make it good, thats easier and less expensive than buying distilled and minerals.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by dparsons

If you can tweak your water a little to make it good, thats easier and less expensive than buying distilled and minerals.

not only less expensive, but lighter!!! that hose doesn't weigh much

My next brew is a mild, and it will have enough darker malts to bring my pH low enough, especially with some extra Ca from the gypsum

[Mad Scientist]

I have used the 5.3 buffer and it works well, but then again, I can also live with out it....

[HogieWan]

My next two brews will have some dark malts in them, but I'll eventually make a pale brew again. Where can I get some pH strips - do they sell those things at Home Depot?

[CiderJoe]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
In depth: the late George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science.

I've been looking for it. Can't find it at bookstores. I need to locate a LHBS here near my parents. Maybe they'll have it. If not, Amazon will be getting some of my money.

[Spicoli]

Originally posted by HogieWan
not only less expensive, but lighter!!! that hose doesn't weigh much

My next brew is a mild, and it will have enough darker malts to bring my pH low enough, especially with some extra Ca from the gypsum


I have used 5.2 and can never get it to dissolve properly. I also remember reading up about it and it had some ingrediant that I knew I didn't want in my beer. I can't remember what it was at this time. About your dark malts bringing the Ph to proper levels, you are right. You also have to think about your sparge water, because your Ph will change during this time. I now use lactic acic to bring down my Ph. It works almost instantly. You can also get your Ph strips like these (http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/action/search-do?searchTerm=ph+strips&x=36&y=9) from most LHBS.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by HogieWan
My next two brews will have some dark malts in them, but I'll eventually make a pale brew again. Where can I get some pH strips - do they sell those things at Home Depot? I doubt it. You'd have better luck with a LHBS or EHBS, or a local restaurant supply, perhaps.

[HogieWan]

what's the story on these garden-type pH meters (http://indoorgardensupplies.com/ph-meter-p-711.html) - would they work in my wort?

[Spicoli]

I would trust the paper before the garden brand. Most electronic Ph meters have to be calibrated with a solution. For the cost papers do not have to be calibrated or worry about temp corrections or burt out electrodes. If you go electronic go with something that you would trust.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Spicoli
I would trust the paper before the garden brand. Most electronic Ph meters have to be calibrated with a solution. For the cost papers do not have to be calibrated or worry about temp corrections or burt out electrodes. If you go electronic go with something that you would trust.

I'm only looking for ballpark, really

[Spicoli]

Then for $6.50 give it a go and let us know how it works out.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by HogieWan
what's the story on these garden-type pH meters (http://indoorgardensupplies.com/ph-meter-p-711.html) - would they work in my wort?

Idoubt it, but at less than $10, it is worth a try...but you need to be able to check against some sort fo standard.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Don't jump on to me admins or mods for this, but you can buy very accurate PH pens and the solution to adjust them at any online Hydroponics store fairly cheap.

*Disclaimer: This was in no way a reference to drugs or illegal activity.*

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
Idoubt it, but at less than $10, it is worth a try...but you need to be able to check against some sort fo standard.

I may grab one if they have them at wal-mart or something, but I'm going to order some strips.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

here is a link for a PH pen that isn't at a Hydroponic store....

http://www.mycosupply.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=DPHM01

[dparsons]

That looks like a good option on a pH meter Otis. I've been considering one while using paper strips, but haven't really liked what I've seen at homebrew stores.

BTW, Home Depot only has pH strips in the box of a total water quality test kit. You get 2 strips - not enough for 1 batch even - and a bunch of other water tests.

[HogieWan]

according to Palmer's chart thing (http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html), I need to add about 200 ppm of calcium to brew a pale beer. Will adding some calcium and doing an acid rest get me into proper mashing pH?

[Mad Scientist]

If you add Ca as gypsum, you should get the pH loweing form the sulfate component.

[HogieWan]

I listed my water breakdown in the first post - what's the easiest way to get a pale brew with this water without adding acids (for whatever reason I just don't want to)

[Mad Scientist]

Honestly, adding gypsum should do the trick for you....once it dissolves, you have Ca that you need for the beer, and the other part of the gypsum molecule, sulfate is free to combine with water as sulfuric acid. thus lowering your pH, but the grain that you are mashing really acts as a buffer, and holds the pH in the 5 to 5.5 range. Is it only for more extreme water chemistires that you'll need to consider adding acids to lower pH, or do an acid rest.

Add the gypsum that you need, and give it a shot.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew

Add the gypsum that you need, and give it a shot.

but how much gypsum - Palmer says that too much sulfate will give the hop bitterness some astringency, which is just what I'm trying to get rid of from tannin extraction

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by HogieWan
but how much gypsum - Palmer says that too much sulfate will give the hop bitterness some astringency, which is just what I'm trying to get rid of from tannin extraction

I use one table spoon for mash water and one for sparge water.

[HogieWan]

should I do this with darker brews as well?

I plan to londonize the water for my mild, and then brew a bitter that may need more treatment.

Whaqt about the acid rest - I have heard nothing back. Should I skip it or does no one know whether I should or not?

[Mad Scientist]

I'd skip it.

For your darker brews, you could skip the gypsum, as the dark grains will work better with the harder water.