AB Cask Ale

[dparsons]

I was in the grocery today and saw an AB seasonal 6 pack - "Winter's Bourbon Cask Ale." My first reaction was that it can't be a Cask Ale because it isn't in a proper cask. I read the description and it says it was aged on Oak casks that had Bourbon in previously. I interpret this to mean that they took apart some old Bourbon barrels and used them for their aging, which really isn't aging to allow flavor to develop but a speeding up process. They probably got some worn out Bourbon casks for cheap.

At any rate I was reflecting back on the recent discussion on the definition of "Craft" brewing and my thinking that the definition prevented AB from applying the term to the stuff that they produce. To me it seems plausible that they've done that here - leveraged a term from the quality/craft side to market their own stuff. Any other thoughts on their use of "Cask Ale?"


Also note that I didn't buy any and really don't intend to.

[HogieWan]

They made this last year as well, but it was draft only. I tried some on my vacation in Disney World (it was the only thing interesting I could find - interesting because I never tried it). It was decent with some winter beer spiciness, but it was just darkish Bud otherwise, no bourbon or woody flavor to speak of.

[Tom C]

For the sake of science I tried some of this stuff earlier. the taste was predominantly vanilla and doubt it came from the cask conditioning but probably from the vanilla extract added. I also tried the master's collection which appears to be the initial run off of the bud...more in line with an imperial pils without the hop bill to balance it though. I give them credit for trying but leave the craft brewing to the micros and regionals around ab!


Tom C

[Mill Rat]

If A-B or other corpobrewers want to really make craft brews, they'll need to build facilities that have the flexibility that craft brewing requires. They certainly have the financial resources to go and construct a craft brewery or brewpub on darn near every intersection that has already has a Walgreens or CVS, but they have yet to see the craft beer market segment as worthy of that degree of investment.

[Tom C]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
If A-B or other corpobrewers want to really make craft brews, they'll need to build facilities that have the flexibility that craft brewing requires. They certainly have the financial resources to go and construct a craft brewery or brewpub on darn near every intersection that has already has a Walgreens or CVS, but they have yet to see the craft beer market segment as worthy of that degree of investment.

Out of curiousity, you do not think their current facilities would not allow them to create craft brews? How so? do explain. I would imagine with all the equipment they have it would be no problem...trick would be do they want to take up fermentation and conditioning tank space that they would normally use to support their current business demand. I would think ounce for ounce a better profit margin on what they currently brew would be achieved over what they would in the craft brewing industry.

Tom C

[Mill Rat]

Tom C, you're on the right track there. The issue isn't so much that other beers could not be brewed in their existing facilities, but that it does not make as efficient use of those facilities. For these brewers, the cost of making a craft brew is not just the cost of making the craft brew, but the loss of the sales on the beer that they did not make while the craft brew was occupying the process line.

Another factor is that beer is perishable, so a process designed to build 30-pack pyramids is not well suited to put a few six-packs on a shelf. The cost of distributing a product that is largely water (which is very costly to ship due to its weight) also works against using a large facility to produce small-demand beers.

It is not mere coincidence that most craft brewers and brew pubs produce a variety of widely varying brew styles. The demand for any single craft brew style is not really sufficient to support an entire craft brewery. (Ken) Pavichevich Brewing Company made a very fine Czech Pils under the Baderbrau name and nothing else. Both PBC and Baderbrau no longer exist.

[dparsons]

They are managing to come up with a number of small batches, such as the one for this topic. Apparently that isn't a problem. I also don't think their equipment is unable to brew better beer. How much simpler can a single infusion mash Pale Ale or Pale Lager be?

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Tom C
I also tried the master's collection which appears to be the initial run off of the bud...more in line with an imperial pils without the hop bill to balance it though. I give them credit for trying but leave the craft brewing to the micros and regionals around ab!


Tom C

Are you referring to Brewmaster's Reserve? If so, it's not simply high gravity Budweiser. It's an all-malt lager - no rice in the grain bill.

Cheers!

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by dparsons
I was in the grocery today and saw an AB seasonal 6 pack - "Winter's Bourbon Cask Ale." My first reaction was that it can't be a Cask Ale because it isn't in a proper cask. I read the description and it says it was aged on Oak casks that had Bourbon in previously. I interpret this to mean that they took apart some old Bourbon barrels and used them for their aging, which really isn't aging to allow flavor to develop but a speeding up process. They probably got some worn out Bourbon casks for cheap.

Any other thoughts on their use of "Cask Ale?"



Semantics. You can focus on the last two words, "Cask Ale", and accuse A-B of marketing a beer as something it isn't.

Or you can read the middle two words, "Bourbon Cask", and understand part of the process of brewing the beer.

Originally posted by dparsons

Also note that I didn't buy any and really don't intend to.


Why not?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
(Ken) Pavichevich Brewing Company made a very fine Czech Pils under the Baderbrau name

Indeed it was a fine brew. Sadly it did not last long.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by newportstorm

Why not?

Like I said I had some and thought it decent. The Brewmaster's Reserve I bought mostly for the bottle - should make a great growler!

[dparsons]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Semantics. You can focus on the last two words, "Cask Ale", and accuse A-B of marketing a beer as something it isn't.

Or you can read the middle two words, "Bourbon Cask", and understand part of the process of brewing the beer.


That is just it. It is semantics. You certainly can't ascribe intent, but it does capitolize on a term that means something specific about a beer that the AB people are aware of and were aware of when the put the name on the beer's label.


Originally posted by newportstorm

Why not?

I don't like spending money on poor to mediocre beer. AB's history and people's comments here confirm that assessment well enough for me. There are too many good beers that I haven't even tried yet to go try a beer I expect to be poor.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by dparsons
There are too many good beers that I haven't even tried yet to go try a beer I expect to be poor.

I can only speak for myself, but if I heard Rogue's new beer was just mediocre, I;d stil buy one to taste (I use rogue because they are consistently higher priced)

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by dparsons

I don't like spending money on poor to mediocre beer. AB's history and people's comments here confirm that assessment well enough for me. There are too many good beers that I haven't even tried yet to go try a beer I expect to be poor.

While I can understand your reasons, it's unfair to call a beer poor without having tried it. I know there's no love loss for A-B and their business model here, and I've no desire to run out and buy any of this either, but criticism is most valid when backed up by experience.

I know several people who were actually impressed with the Brewmaster's Reserve all malt lager last year. I balked at paying $13 for a bottle of an A-B product and held out for a couple tastes at an upcoming fest. A clean, but boring beer and confirmed my reservations about spending that $13.

Cheers!

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I can only speak for myself, but if I heard Rogue's new beer was just mediocre, I;d stil buy one to taste (I use rogue because they are consistently higher priced) Agreed. I'd be far more ready to give the Rogue the benefit of the doubt as they have marketed some amazing beer, while I don't remember any A-B beer that sticks in my mind, at least in any pleasant sort of way.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by newportstorm
I know several people who were actually impressed with the Brewmaster's Reserve all malt lager last year. I balked at paying $13 for a bottle of an A-B product and held out for a couple tastes at an upcoming fest. A clean, but boring beer and confirmed my reservations about spending that $13.

Cheers!

I sampled this at a private tasting. I agree with your assessment.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by newportstorm
While I can understand your reasons, it's unfair to call a beer poor without having tried it. I know there's no love loss for A-B and their business model here, and I've no desire to run out and buy any of this either, but criticism is most valid when backed up by experience.

I know several people who were actually impressed with the Brewmaster's Reserve all malt lager last year. I balked at paying $13 for a bottle of an A-B product and held out for a couple tastes at an upcoming fest. A clean, but boring beer and confirmed my reservations about spending that $13.

Cheers!

I didn't criticize their beer. I questioned the name given to the beer. Its a marketing level issue.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by dparsons
I didn't criticize their beer. I questioned the name given to the beer. Its a marketing level issue.

I understand the marketing issue. But you also stated you expected the beer to be mediocre to poor, partly based on others' assessments.

Re-read my second paragraph. I held out from buying an A-B beer that several people felt was solid, above-average, etc. Had I taken their word and dropped $13 on what I ultimately felt was a snoozer of a beer, I'd have been disappointed.

Many people assume any new beer from a big brewer would be a waste of time/money, and maybe they're somewhat justified. But I've seen the reverse of this situation with craft beers. Lots of beer geeks rave about any new beer from Bell's, Stone, DFH, etc. before even trying them. Sadly, imo, many of these beers fail to live up to the hype and are rather average beers - some being absolute train wrecks (cough...Weyerbacher Eleven...cough).

My point is simply to try the beer in question first. You might be surprised.

Cheers!

[Tom C]

Originally posted by newportstorm
I understand the marketing issue. But you also stated you expected the beer to be mediocre to poor, partly based on others' assessments.

Re-read my second paragraph. I held out from buying an A-B beer that several people felt was solid, above-average, etc. Had I taken their word and dropped $13 on what I ultimately felt was a snoozer of a beer, I'd have been disappointed.

Many people assume any new beer from a big brewer would be a waste of time/money, and maybe they're somewhat justified. But I've seen the reverse of this situation with craft beers. Lots of beer geeks rave about any new beer from Bell's, Stone, DFH, etc. before even trying them. Sadly, imo, many of these beers fail to live up to the hype and are rather average beers - some being absolute train wrecks (cough...Weyerbacher Eleven...cough).

My point is simply to try the beer in question first. You might be surprised.

Cheers!

Exactly why I paid 15 at a local shop here for it. Indeed it was boring...but above average for the typical American drinker...just par for us though that could be had for much less per bottle although taking into account the quantity...

Tom C

[DecoJuicer]

I posted in another thread that the towing company that we use at work provided several cases of the Brewmasters Private Reserve Beer. A couple of bottles were opened, and the general consensous was that the beer was awful. I managed to get a few bottles(I wanted it for the bottle only) and I tried some of it. I thought that it was far to sweet, and had I paid for it, I would have been disappointed that I spent money that could have been spent better elsewhere.

That being said, I did try it before forming a decision. I still have one full bottle that I plan to offer at my New Year's eve party, should anybody want to try it. I will also offer up some better beers and a bottle or 2 of my mead.

I try to stay away for the knee jerk, "If AB makes it, it must suck" kind of attitude. You never know what you could be missing.

[HogieWan]

I'm actually having the brewmaster's reserve right now. As was said, it's kinda boring, but if I could get an 8.5% brew to come out so bright and clean, I'd be damn proud of myself.

That said, I'm with deco - I only wanted the bottle. I looked into getting a largeish growler to bring kegged beer to a party or something, and this bottle full of beer was about the same price as an empty

[dparsons]

Originally posted by newportstorm


My point is simply to try the beer in question first. You might be surprised.

Cheers!

I might be surprised, but probably not. I'm also not going to try every flavor offered in the generic brand of Ice Cream my local grocery store carries to decide that they are poor quality. If they come out with a new one, I'll still buy a brand I associate with quality and have a much better chance of getting a good Ice Cream. If someone I know comments on the Ice Cream, then I have even better odds. Same thing goes for Cheese and Cars. I don't need to buy a Yugo to think my odds of getting a good car from them are slim.

[Phatz]

Originally posted by Tom C
Out of curiosity, you do not think their current facilities would not allow them to create craft brews? How so? do explain. I would imagine with all the equipment they have it would be no problem...trick would be do they want to take up fermentation and conditioning tank space that they would normally use to support their current business demand. I would think ounce for ounce a better profit margin on what they currently brew would be achieved over what they would in the craft brewing industry.

Tom C

IMO A-B has the capability to make what ever quality of beer they choose to. Instead of focusing on something new they are buying into pieces of the Craft beer industry and tinkering around with experiments like the Winter Bourbon Cask Ale and Jacks Pumpkin Spice etc.

My thoughts FWIW.

Cheers!
Matt

[Stonch]

Any other thoughts on their use of "Cask Ale?"

Cask ale means live beer served from the cask. A bottled beer cannot be described as a cask ale in any circumstances.

STONCH'S BEER BLOG - http://stonch.blogspot.com

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Stonch
Cask ale means live beer served from the cask. A bottled beer cannot be described as a cask ale in any circumstances.

STONCH'S BEER BLOG - http://stonch.blogspot.com

they aren't saying it's bourbon "cask ale"they are saying it's "bourbon cask" ale. Now they may mean to deceive by putting the two words together, but it's obviously in a bottle and anyone that the term "cask ale" means anything to won't be fooled

[Phatz]

Originally posted by HogieWan
they aren't saying it's bourbon "cask ale"they are saying it's "bourbon cask" ale. Now they may mean to deceive by putting the two words together, but it's obviously in a bottle and anyone that the term "cask ale" means anything to won't be fooled

Yes, there is a fine line between deception and lieing and skirting that is is all to common.

[2pigs]

Brewmasters Private Reserve Beer,... I didn't think it was bad. I also didn't buy it. I get them from friends.

The bottle is good and bad. It's so dark no light is going to get into it which is "Good". The "bad" is every time I fill it, the only way I know to stop is when beer is pouring out.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer


I try to stay away for the knee jerk, "If AB makes it, it must suck" kind of attitude. You never know what you could be missing.

I can sleep well at night knowing I'm not missing anything. If A-B makes it, there's a 99.999999% chance that it will suck. Of course it's *possible* that they could whip up a stellar beer and put it on the shelf, but for obvious reasons the chances of this at present are, at best, remote. Plus, why even support a brewer that is not a craft brewer? With all the great tasting craft-brewed beer out there, I'll never understand the "give A-B a chance" attitude. Until A-B starts making real beer, I'm not paying attention. To each his own, though.

And as far as this semantic debate about the 'cask' designation, I'll hazard a guess that it's similar to 'Beechwood Aging' -- which is to say it's utter BS. The thought of guys at A-B tossing staves of old bourbon barrels into the fermenter kills me... :D

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Phatz
IMO A-B has the capability to make what ever quality of beer they choose to.

Cheers!
Matt

Exactly. They focus on making the type of product they do because that is their market. It's cheaper to make, they have a big market share, and as Mill Rat points out, their facilities are designed specifically for it. They're not going to be changing anytime soon.

[dparsons]

Just another comment on the wording arrangement on the label as I took another look at this when I was in the store yesterday.

"Winter's Bourbon" is on one line and is in a smaller font.
"Cask Ale" is on the next line and is in a larger font.

"Cask Ale" seems intended to stand out.

http://www.ratebeer.com/beerimages/54136.jpg

[djaychris]

I tried this stuff and I gotta say, its not too bad. Kinda watery, not much body, but loads of vanilla flavor (probably artificial). Its not going to win any competitions, but it tastes like cream soda to me. Pretty smooth to drink.

-Dan

[Stonch]

Originally posted by djaychris
I tried this stuff and I gotta say, its not too bad. Kinda watery, not much body, but loads of vanilla flavor (probably artificial). Its not going to win any competitions, but it tastes like cream soda to me. Pretty smooth to drink.

-Dan

I have never been too sure what cream soda is exactly, but surely that can't be a good thing in a beer? Surely?

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