Disappointing Weizen

[CiderJoe]

I had another taste of my weizen bier today. Not happy at all. It's been in the bottle for 3 weeks now. Thought it'd be about right. But it just isn't Here are my issues.

1 - the colour is off. Too Yellow. I put that down to Infusio mash only. Don't feel quite ready for decoction yet.

2 - Carbonation. Not enough. Maybe it just needs more time. But I think the real problem is that I didn't use enough priming sugar. I only used, according to my notes, 112 grams. I think I should have used about 50 to 100 grams more to get the correct level of carbonation for a Hefeweizen. Not sure. I put down to being used to making Bitters, which I seem to so well. A German style is a new thing for me.

3. Taste - I know this can come from lots of different places. First here's what I'm tasting or what I think I'm tasting. There's a bitterness that seems out of place. Something I can't place. It isn't something I associate with hops though. He's my ingredients.

2.5 Kilos Wheat Malt (2 SRM)
1.5 Kilos Lager Malt (2 SRM)
0.5 Kilos Munich Malt (9 SRM)
17 grams Tettang Hops (4.1%) (60 Min.) (12.8 IBU's)
32 grams Tettang Hops (4.1%) (30 Min.) (18.5 IBU's)
17 grams Tettang Hops (4.1%) (1 Min.) (0.6 IBU's)
1 Packet Bavarian Wheat Yeast (Wyeast Labs #3056)

Mashed for an hour at 65 degrees Celcius. S.G. 1.040 F.G. 1.080
ABV Approx. 4.2 Colour - 6 SRM

Now, this taste. I keep sipping and tasting and I can't figure it out. I know my IBU's look high, but I used hopbags and those number don't reflect the loss in efficiency due to using them. I estimate that my IBU's are 25% less. But admittedly, probably still too high. So I have to consider that. I've also wondered about the secondary fermentation. I don't have any way of controlling the temp and the secondary was 2 weeks at 20 Degrees Celcius. So maybe that had something to do with it. I'm also not too confident about the condition of the yeast. I know Wyeast is a good brand, but the shop I buy from gets it from a shop in Belgium, who has it shipped in form who knows where. Then on to my via post, which usually takes several days. So I'm wondering if liquid yeast is a good option for me.

Anyhow, these are some of the thems I'm thinking about. Does anyone have a good explaination for what I'm tasting? The smell seem alittle off as well. But in line with Weizen beers. Just strong. It just the first time I've made a beer at home that I really didn't want to drink. I've been pleased with everything else I've made so far at home.

Thanks,
Cider

[mortong]

You've tried a traditional Euro weizen before right?

Are you tasting the clove flavor from the yeast?

Sorry if that's obvious - I just want to cover the basic, easiest answers first.

[mortong]

Originally posted by mortong
You've tried a traditional Euro weizen before right?


LOL. Nevermind, I just saw your location. I'm sure you've tried a Euro weizen. Can you be any more specific on the taste?

[CiderJoe]

Originally posted by mortong
You've tried a traditional Euro weizen before right?

Are you tasting the clove flavor from the yeast?

Sorry if that's obvious - I just want to cover the basic, easiest answers first.

No worries. And my location doesn't really help me in this. It's a severe detriment. I live in wine and cider country.

I'm not sure I've tried a "traditional" euro weizen. I've had Schnieder Weis, Paulaner and Franziskoner which are are all in teh HefeWeizen area. But you might be right about the clove. Who knows. Maybe I nailed it and just don't know it?

Like I mentioned, I'm a big fan of traditional English Bitter. I even spent last summer working in a traditional English Micro-brewery (5 BBL brew length). I can do those pretty well, even if I don't have the correct water or malt (can't get Maris-Otter here).

I've never brewed anotehr style before, but I wanted to branch out. I've done a Wit since then, which is pretty easy and I've done before with some success, and I brewed what will probably turn out to be a Triple instead of a Strong Blond last night (not sure how that one will turn out either).

So maybe you can help me out here more than you think. What kind of profile and I looking for then? I was thinking of something like a Schneider Weis or Paulaner, but maybe the yeast I used is not the correct one for that flavour profile?

Thanks
Cider

[mortong]

Franziskoner does have the traditional flavor profile - with the banana and cloves. I don't recall how strong the clove flavor is, though.

A few things you've said make me think you might just have more phenols (clove flavor) than most traditional European wheat beers:

The smell seem a little off as well. But in line with Weizen beers. Just strong.

I found this tonight:

The weizenbier flavor, on the other hand, is quite unsubtle and can easily get raunchy if the fermentation is mismanaged. The flavor arises from 4-vinyl-guaiacol, a phenolic compound produced by the weizenbier yeast, Saccharomyces delbrueckii. Phenolic compounds are typically by-products of wild Saccharomyces strains, and Weizenbier can be considered (and is by many) a spoiled beer. The trick is to keep the spoilage under control -- to get enough of that clovelike character to make the beer interesting, but not enough to make it unpalatable.
(The full article can be found here (http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/miller.html)).

I could be that your warmer secondary helped add a little bit of phenols (although 20 degrees C/68 degrees F really isn't that high).

25 IBU is pretty high for a wheat beer. Maybe the hops and phenol flavors aren't blending very well when you try to drink it? I had an American Amber Ale that ended up with a wild yeast infection once. At first it was great - the phenolic flavors made it taste like a Belgian Trappist. After a few weeks the clove flavor got way too strong and the clashing of flavors with the hops was just too much to handle. It became my "last resort" drink because I didn't have the heart to throw it out.

[CiderJoe]

Originally posted by mortong
Franziskoner does have the traditional flavor profile - with the banana and cloves. I don't recall how strong the clove flavor is, though.

A few things you've said make me think you might just have more phenols (clove flavor) than most traditional European wheat beers:

The smell seem a little off as well. But in line with Weizen beers. Just strong.

I found this tonight:

The weizenbier flavor, on the other hand, is quite unsubtle and can easily get raunchy if the fermentation is mismanaged. The flavor arises from 4-vinyl-guaiacol, a phenolic compound produced by the weizenbier yeast, Saccharomyces delbrueckii. Phenolic compounds are typically by-products of wild Saccharomyces strains, and Weizenbier can be considered (and is by many) a spoiled beer. The trick is to keep the spoilage under control -- to get enough of that clovelike character to make the beer interesting, but not enough to make it unpalatable.
(The full article can be found here (http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/miller.html)).

I could be that your warmer secondary helped add a little bit of phenols (although 20 degrees C/68 degrees F really isn't that high).

25 IBU is pretty high for a wheat beer. Maybe the hops and phenol flavors aren't blending very well when you try to drink it? I had an American Amber Ale that ended up with a wild yeast infection once. At first it was great - the phenolic flavors made it taste like a Belgian Trappist. After a few weeks the clove flavor got way too strong and the clashing of flavors with the hops was just too much to handle. It became my "last resort" drink because I didn't have the heart to throw it out.

Lots to think about there. I do think that the hops and cloves (Phenols) are not blending well. I thought about that last night and reread part of "How to Brew" to try and understand those flavour profiles better. I might reread the same sections of "Radical Brewing" and the "Home Brewer's Companion" as well. I'm not sure how I might have mismanaged the fermentation. Though I feel like I could have avoided the strong smell by chilling the beer in the secondary if I had that capability. I'll have to see if I can get an old frig to convert into a holding area for secondary fermenters, though with the weather getting chilly, I might just want to put the beer out on the balcony in a shaddy area. It's not getting much above 14 Celcius these days.

I'm going to read over that article you posted the link to. Maybe that will give me some more insite as well. Hopefully it's not an infection. I've never had one before, and I really don't want to have to replace brewing equipment, though it would be a good excuse to get some nice stainless stuff :)

Cider

[Shaun Goeckner]

Amigo Mio-

I made a few wheats recently, and like you mention they were....strong after 3 weeks.

I had to go on a 10 week biz trip, and when I returned, the wheat was quite tasty.

I brewed 10 gallons of wheat;

1 Kilo Caramunich
3 Kilo Wheat
4 kilo Pale

1 oz. @ 7.6 AA Perle, 60 min
1 oz. @ 5.6 AA Tett 15 min
2 oz. @ 5.6 AA Tett 0 mins

Mashed using 1.25 qts/lb at 150° for 90 minutes.....

[CiderJoe]

I think you might be right. I'm going back to the States for a few weeks. It'll be interesting to tate them when I return. Maybe they'll have mellowed some by then. Like the man says, the beer is usually at it's best when you've finished drinking it. ;)

[LagerEd]

When I do my single infusion Weizenbiers I mash for 90 minutes. Here's my recipe which is very tasty.

3.2 Kg German Red Wheat
1.8 Kg German Pils
.25 Kg Rice Hulls (prevents stuck sparge)

Mash for 90 minutes

21 g. Hallertau at 45 min.
7 g. Hallertau at 15 min.

Pitch a starter made from Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan.

I ferment for 2 weeks in a primary bucket then rack to a keg. Force carb for a week before serving.

It's nectar of the gods.

[CiderJoe]

The yeast is something I need to sort. I don't get the yeast in optimal condition, and so I'm not sure it's giving me the correct flavour profile.

I do envy the fact you can get rice hulls. I tend to use wheat alot, and I can't get rice hulls. So my sparges are either really long or not efficient.

But all in time. I still make drinkable beer.

[LagerEd]

Yeast is the most important thing in making a German style Weissbier. You can't beat the Weihenstephan strain from Wyeast. Weihenstephan is the worlds oldest brewery and they make some fantastic Weissbier. I had some a couple of weeks ago in Freising, Germany and will be back in February to enjoy some more.

Cheers,

Ed

[Shaun Goeckner]

Hey Ed, what do you do?!?

[LagerEd]

Sales Engineer/Technical Trainer