Aging in Carboy

[sweetkness]

Ok, I just posted a topic involving this same batch, but its a little different area, so I figured I would start a new thread. I just brewed an Imperial Stout, it is currently in the primary stage in my plastic bucket. My plans are to age this brew in a secondary (glass carboy) for 2 to 4 months, then bottle and condition further if necessary.

What I'm wondering is.....I know that its not good to leave a batch in the primary fermenter for an extended amount of time since it will develop off flavors from the yeast (it's called autolysis isn't it?), which is why a secondary is used. Now I've noticed that I get a small amount of trub in the secondary also, about an inch or so, sometimes less. So since I'm planning to age it in the carboy for up to 4 months, if I notice that inch or so of trub, should I re-rack it into a clean carboy (a tertiary fermentation if you will) to avoid more off flavors, or is that not much of a problem during secondary fermentation?

----One quick sidenote, the directions call for adding champegne yeast when transfering to the secondary, I don't know if that would change your answer to the question.

[corkybstewart]

There's no need to re-rack again, the amount of yeast that will settle out is negligible. What looks like an inch of trub in secondary is becasue the debris coats the transition from flat bottom to vertical sides and looks much thicker than it really is. And I've left beers in primary a month or more pretty often, especially big beers like and Imperial stout. In fact my last RIS was in primary 5 weeks. I kegged my half and my brewing partner bottled his. He's already drinking his after just 2 weeks in the bottle.
And I'm not sure what the point of champagne yeast is at this point unless it's too finish up any residual sugars. It will make a very dry beer and I personally wouldn't do it .

[Mill Rat]

I don't make a second yeast addition to my imps, but I start out with a rather boisterous starter of a yeast with some pretty good attenuation and alcohol tolerance (usually WLP 007, dry English ale).

[sweetkness]

And I've left beers in primary a month or more pretty often, especially big beers like and Imperial stout. In fact my last RIS was in primary 5 weeks.

So you never even used a secondary? Were you still getting bubble action at 5 weeks?

I don't make a second yeast addition to my imps, but I start out with a rather boisterous starter of a yeast with some pretty good attenuation and alcohol tolerance (usually WLP 007, dry English ale).

I haven't gotten to the point of making starters yet, still need to research that a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are more important for high gravity beers such as an Imperial, correct?

[corkybstewart]

I keg mine directly from primary but then the kegs may sit 3 or 4 months before I carbonate them so that's essentially aging in stainless steel secondary. My super saison was in primary from the end of May until the middle of August and in the kegerator since then. I tapped it Wednesday and it's delicious, but it never spent a day in glass secondary. I have my prickly pear mead in a carboy but I'm going to bottle it eventually so I didn't want to take up a keg for it.
.
As far as bubbling goes that's a very unreliable way to know if your beer is finished. Use your hydrometer. I've had yeast go dormant, especially Belgians, at under 70F. They quit bubbling until they get warmed up again and then they take off. Bubble watching will ruin a batch of beer as easy as an infection.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by sweetkness
I haven't gotten to the point of making starters yet, still need to research that a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are more important for high gravity beers such as an Imperial, correct? They're more important the higher the OG gets, but after trying to avoid the issue for too long, I now make a starter each time I pitch a new yeast vial. The difference it makes in lag time and the final attenuation that you get (lower FG) are really worth the extra effort. If you plan you brewing a little bit, you can line up a sequence of brews that will work well with a particular variety of yeast, and make a starter for batch number 1, then pitch batch 2 on the yeast cake of no. 1, etc. Keeps the yeast cost down, and there's nothing like a 5-gallon starter to get the next batch rocking before you can even get the blowoff tube on. I find that a no. 6.5 stopper with an airlock in the top of a 1/2 gallon growler makes a fine starter vessel.

[sweetkness]

Bubble watching will ruin a batch of beer as easy as an infection.

Thanks for the advice corky

If you plan you brewing a little bit, you can line up a sequence of brews that will work well with a particular variety of yeast, and make a starter for batch number 1, then pitch batch 2 on the yeast cake of no. 1, etc. Keeps the yeast cost down, and there's nothing like a 5-gallon starter to get the next batch rocking before you can even get the blowoff tube on. I find that a no. 6.5 stopper with an airlock in the top of a 1/2 gallon growler makes a fine starter vessel.

Ok, time for some beginner questions. So you use the yeast cake to make your starters? Now I'm a little confused on yeast cake, is that just the trub at the bottom of the primary? Can you give me a quick summary of your starter process? I also haven't done the blowoff tube technique, I've just been using plastic buckets with airlocks for the primary....I haven't really been getting much krausen, so it hasn't been an issue I guess.

[mortong]

Originally posted by sweetkness


Ok, time for some beginner questions. So you use the yeast cake to make your starters? Now I'm a little confused on yeast cake, is that just the trub at the bottom of the primary? Can you give me a quick summary of your starter process? I also haven't done the blowoff tube technique, I've just been using plastic buckets with airlocks for the primary....I haven't really been getting much krausen, so it hasn't been an issue I guess.

You should be fine using a plastic fermenter with an airlock, but getting a 6.5 gallon carboy for primary is well worth the $20-30 you'll spend. I still use an airlock on mine, though.

To make a starter, just boil up a little bit of wort. I find that 1# DME to 1 gallon water ratio works well (as a ratio; I don't necessarily use 1 full pound and 1 full gallon). Pour your cooled wort into a small container (1 gallon or 1/2 gallon growlers work very well for this). You then swish around your recently emptied primary to mix up the yeast cake with any remaining liquid beer. Rack some of the liquid/trub mix into the growler and seal with an airlock. Pitch 1-2 cups into your next batch after fermentation is chugging away in the growler.

...or you could do it the way I do and dump your new batch into your primary on top of your old trub. You'll have explosive fermentation within a few hours that way.

[sweetkness]

Pitch 1-2 cups into your next batch after fermentation is chugging away in the growler.

So using that method, you pitch the starter into the batch AFTER fermenation has already started? Wouldn't you add the starter right after transfering into the primary?



...or you could do it the way I do and dump your new batch into your primary on top of your old trub. You'll have explosive fermentation within a few hours that way.

If I were to use the old trub, can I store it in an airtight container at room temp. until I'm ready to use it? or would I need to refridgerate it until I'm ready to re-use it.

[mortong]

Originally posted by sweetkness
So using that method, you pitch the starter into the batch AFTER fermenation has already started? Wouldn't you add the starter right after transfering into the primary?

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. After the starter has been fermenting for a few days, pitch the starter into your new batch as soon as the new batch has cooled from brewing.


If I were to use the old trub, can I store it in an airtight container at room temp. until I'm ready to use it? or would I need to refridgerate it until I'm ready to re-use it.

I sanitize beer bottles, transfer the trub into the bottles and store them in the fridge. I've heard they can last up to 6 months, but I don't push it past a month or two.

[sweetkness]

I sanitize beer bottles, transfer the trub into the bottles and store them in the fridge. I've heard they can last up to 6 months, but I don't push it past a month or two.

Thanks for all your help so far. One last question (I think) involving this process. How many bottles of the trub/yeast cake does it take to use as your starter?

[mortong]

Originally posted by sweetkness
How many bottles of the trub/yeast cake does it take to use as your starter?

Just one, although I've never done it with a really HG beer.

[sweetkness]

WOW! So one yeast cake can give you enough starters for several batches? I'm assuming you have to use them for the batches of the same type of beer. But that would be quite a money saver. I'm assuming it's quite efficient if so many people use the starter/yeast cake technique.

[texasliam]

Back to the original question. If sweetkness ages in a secondary for 4 months, will the beer still have enough viable yeast to start up the carbonation after bottling? Maybe that why the recipet calls for more yeast at bottling.


On starters, here's what works for me. Get a bunch of 24 oz beer bottles. I like green heinakin bottles because you can see whats going on inside. Boil the cleaned bottles in your brew pot with the same amount of beer caps with a few extras, and a funel, for at least 20 minutes.
make starter using 2 cups water and 2 tablespoons of dry malt extract (DME), for every bottle you boil. Boil the water and dme for a couple of minutes in a second pot. being careful not to burn yourself, take the bottles out of the boiling water, empty the water in the bottles, fill them with the funel 2/3 full. Cap them, and put them back in the hot water. Bring the water back up to boiling, covered with a lid, then turn off immediatly. let the pot of water and bottles cool off for several hours. There is a small chance the the bottle will break when you bring it back up to boiling so make sure you use a pot lid.
Now each bottle has sterile wort and can sit on a shelf forever. One or 2 days before brewing pop one open, pour in the yeast, put in an airlock, and pitch the whole thing on brewing day.
If you have a high gravity beer spit the yeast between 2 starters and wait 2 days to pitch.

If you want to re-use yeast: On the same day that you transfer beer to a secondary, pour a new 5 gallon batch of cooled wort into your dirty primary, with all the sludge on the bottom. This sluge is called the "yeast cake", or trub. Get ready for a very robust fermentation, withing hours. You may look into fermenting in glass carboy primarys with a blow off tube for this method as it ferments very quickly and makes tons of foam.

If want to re-use the yeast at a later date. split the yeast cake into two 24 ounce bottles. sanitize the funel, bottles and airlock first of course. You might need to add a little water and swish it around to get the yeast cake to pour out. Put in air locks and refrigerate for up to one month. 1 or 2 days before brewing take the yeast cake out of the fridge (only one), and let it warm up a couple of hours. pour off the clear fluid in the top of the yeast cake bottle. open a premade starter as described above, and pour it into the yeast cake bottle, put in an airlock , shake it up, and you should see fermentation by the same or next day. Use both yeast cakes for high gravity beers.

corections anyone?
hope this helps
Liam

[RichC]

Originally posted by sweetkness
WOW! So one yeast cake can give you enough starters for several batches?

I know a little more about yeast from bread making, than I do about beer (which is next to nothing).

Yeast will keep multiplying so in theory, you can keep this going forever. With bread, you'll take the starter out of your fridge every so often, drain off excess liquid, and feed it (water and flour) and let it do it's thing. When you use it, you make sure you have double what you need and take half for your recipe and feed the rest (usually with one cup of flour and one cup of water). You keep on feeding it and it keeps on growing. Some people keep these going for years and years.

So really what you're doing is keeping the yeast alive, feeding it so it multiplies and then continuing to reuse it.

[texasliam]

Yup, that's it, but I'm adding DME instead of flour. And my next starter comes from the bottom of the 5 gallon carboy everytime. It won't go of for years like bread yeast though. Most people say 5 times is the limit.

Liam

[sweetkness]

Well the extra champegne yeast actually gets added when transfering to the secondary. Then I have the usual corn sugar to help with carbonation when bottling.

I'm still guessing that when saving the yeast cake/trub in the bottles, that you would need to use it with the same type of beer, am I correct?

[texasliam]

Originally posted by sweetkness
Well the extra champegne yeast actually gets added when transfering to the secondary. Then I have the usual corn sugar to help with carbonation when bottling.

I'm still guessing that when saving the yeast cake/trub in the bottles, that you would need to use it with the same type of beer, am I correct?
\
Hmm, don't know why you would add more yeast at transfer to secondary..I don't.

on the yeast, yes and no. If you wan't to get picky on beer styles then yes. If you arn't so picky and just wan't to make good beer, then no. For instance I would use belgian yeast for belgian beer, and english or irish for stouts and bitters. But for any american style I use only one yeast WLP001. Good all purpose yeast for almost anything american and it works good for pale ale, IPA. and american wheat. So I re-use that yeast because it fits 3/4 of what I wan't to make.
Anybody else wish to clarify that for me?

Liam

[mortong]

Originally posted by sweetkness
I'm still guessing that when saving the yeast cake/trub in the bottles, that you would need to use it with the same type of beer, am I correct?

Not necessarily - you just want to make sure it's a beer that you'd want to ferment with the same type of yeast.

[corkybstewart]

Do the lighter colored beers first, there will always be a little of the first beer left and it will contribute a little to your second beer. I did an Irish red and then an oatmeal stout with the yeast cake. And I usually brew a pale Belgian before I do a Dark Strong.

[sweetkness]

So this is the method I would use from the information you guys have given, let me know if you see any flaws.

After a batch has finished its primary, transfer and leave the trub. Now this is the area I'm just a little unsure about, I would just be using the spigot and a short amount of plastic tubing to transfer to my bottles, I would plan on only adding water to the trub/yeast cake if it was too thick to run through the spigot/tubing. Everything would be santized of course. Then just fill the bottles 2/3 full, cap, and refridgerate until I'm ready to use. Then I guess use one bottle per starter, unless I'm going with another HG beer.

Any problems there?

[corkybstewart]

Then before you're ready to brew, bring the bottled yeast to room temp, transfer ta a larger bottle and add some fresh wort to wake the yeast up a little. For instance I'd move the yeast to a wine bottle, add the wort and put an airlock on. Let ist sit a day or so and it whould be good.

[Carl Spakler]

Originally posted by texasliam


If you want to re-use yeast: On the same day that you transfer beer to a secondary, pour a new 5 gallon batch of cooled wort into your dirty primary, with all the sludge on the bottom. This sluge is called the "yeast cake", or trub. Get ready for a very robust fermentation, withing hours. You may look into fermenting in glass carboy primarys with a blow off tube for this method as it ferments very quickly and makes tons of foam.


I had no idea you could do this...that sludge in the bottom of the primary looks so foul I had never even thought of anything but "decontamination" when I finish transferring. I plan to make an IPA or some other hoppy beer soon (once we drink some bottles empty), could I do two similar style beers (the local homebrew store has an IPA and a Hop Head kit) with that same batch of yeast and not use any new yeast? The local place supplies liquid yeast (in the "test tubes") with the kits, would this be able to power two batches?

When the yeast sits on the bottom of the fermenter I thought it was "spent" and not good for anything, I guess this is wrong?

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Carl Spakler
I guess this is wrong? The bad news is... you were wrong.

The good news is... you were wrong.

Not only can you re-use yeast, but it will give you a great short lag time before that second (...and third, fourth, etc.) batch erupts into fermentation. You will have better attenuation, too. This is also a great excuse for brewing more, as in "yes, honey, I think it'd be a great idea to go along with you to the SIL's candle party, but if I don't brew another batch right now, I'll have betrayed millions of tiny yeasties that are counting on me to feed them again, besides, this is more economical if I can use a single yeast package for all these batches. It'll eventually save us so much you can buy another one of those overpriced candles!"

[texasliam]

Originally posted by sweetkness
After a batch has finished its primary, transfer and leave the trub. Now this is the area I'm just a little unsure about, I would just be using the spigot and a short amount of plastic tubing to transfer to my bottles, I would plan on only adding water to the trub/yeast cake if it was too thick to run through the spigot/tubing. Everything would be santized of course. Then just fill the bottles 2/3 full, cap, and refridgerate until I'm ready to use. Then I guess use one bottle per starter, unless I'm going with another HG beer.

Any problems there?
yup, with a few notes. The trubs pretty thick. I transfer to bottles by pouring using a funnel.
After refrigeration, a bunch of fluid will accumulate in the top of the yeast as the yeast settles out, leave it there. When you are waking up your yeast, pour this fluid off, then add the starter to the bottle and put in an air lock. And as mentioned warm it up to room temerature before doing this.

One thing you may have missed. If you are brewing batches 1 week apart, forget the whole process of transfering trub to small bottles. just pour your new 5 gallon batch (2 gallons of boil and 3 gallons tap water or whatever your doing) straight into the dirty carboy, right over the yeast cake.

[Carl Spakler]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
The bad news is... you were wrong.

The good news is... you were wrong.

Not only can you re-use yeast, but it will give you a great short lag time before that second (...and third, fourth, etc.) batch erupts into fermentation. You will have better attenuation, too.

No additional yeast is needed if you brew on top of the old yeast?

[texasliam]

Heck no. There is enough yeast for a hight gravity, or enough to split to 2 regular gravity worts. But remember if your storing the trub for later use, it needs to be woken up with a little premade sterile wort before you pitch it, just as if you were making a starter for store bought yeast.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by texasliam
If you are brewing batches 1 week apart, forget the whole process of transfering trub to small bottles. just pour your new 5 gallon batch (2 gallons of boil and 3 gallons tap water or whatever your doing) straight into the dirty carboy, right over the yeast cake. Just make sure that everything you pour in is at pitching temperature. If you pour hot wort onto the yeast cake, the yeast will be DOA long before the wort cools.

[Carl Spakler]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
Just make sure that everything you pour in is at pitching temperature. If you pour hot wort onto the yeast cake, the yeast will be DOA long before the wort cools.

Thanks, I figured that one out; yeast will still die from boiling wort even after being used once. :)

This just furthers the need for a wort chiller!

[Mill Rat]

Yeah, but I like complete answers. Sometimes even the obvious will escape the astute, it just happens less often.

[dparsons]

Things are obvious once you see them.

[sweetkness]

Ok, so I just trasfered a batch of honey stout to a secondary, and did the best I could to bottle some of the trub/yeast cake. I did it using the spigot, tubing and 12 oz. bottles.....which was a bit difficult doing myself considering how thick it was and not wanting to overfill the bottles, I filled two bottles about halfway and one about 2/3, capped and put in the fridge. Everything was sanitized, things might have gotten a little iffy during the bottling.

What I'm wondering is, one bottle ended up more liquidy than the others, I know Liam mentioned pouring that excess liquid out when I got to use it in the starter.....does it really matter? Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the yeast that I'm reusing continue to multiply in the next batch until reaching a certain amount, then again settle to the bottom of the next primary....no matter if the amount in my bottle is a little less or a little more?

[texasliam]

Well the whole point is to add enough of the old yeast to make a good healthy starter for your next batch. You probably should have poured the yeast into larger bottles than 12 oz. Remember you need to add 2 or 3 cups of sterile premade wort to reactivate the old yeast 1 or 2 days before you make beer. The reason to use a large bottle is that after you pour off the watery part, then add 2 cups of wort a 22 oz bottle will be almost full, with enough headroom to account for the foam it's going to make.
Where you are at, you will need to shake up your 12 oz bottle, then add that to a larger bottle, then add 2 cups sterile wort to it and put in an air lock.
I hope you have airlocks on your current 12 oz bottles as it will still continue to make gass.
and next time try pouring it out of the primary, using a funnel, its easyer.
Liam

[sweetkness]

I guess I'm a little confused. I just capped the bottles that I put the trub/yeast cake in and refridgerated them until I'm ready to use them.

My plan was to transfer that into one of my growlers, along with the 2 cups of wort, and use the airlock on the growler. Do I need airlocks on the bottles that I'm refridgerating until ready for use also?

[corkybstewart]

They're dormant in the frig so you're alright there. Add the yeast to the growler along with the fresh wort and put an airlock in. Swirl the growler every once in a while to get the yeast off the bottom.

[texasliam]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
They're dormant in the frig so you're alright there. Add the yeast to the growler along with the fresh wort and put an airlock in. Swirl the growler every once in a while to get the yeast off the bottom.

That is, add the wort when you want to reactivate the yeast 2 days before your next beer boil.
I was under the understanding that you needed a airlock for storing the yeast in the fridge. Thanks for the correction there.
Corky know way more about beer than I so use his advice. You got a growler, perfect, go that way.

Liam

[corkybstewart]

I use an airlock for short term storage, but you could also cap the bottles since they won't be giving off any gas. The airlock takes space, can go dry ,get knocked off so capping is a good idea.

[piratedrunk]

On the subject of reusing yeast, does anyone have a suggestion of yeast to use if I'm looking to start with a mild or bitter ale, getting progressively darker, and in the 3rd or 4th generation end with an russian imperial stout? I'm looking into White Labs, but there are so many varieties to choose from!

[Mill Rat]

If you're planning to end with an RIS, then WLP007 is probably your best bet. It has fairly high attenuation and you can avoid overattenuating you lead-in brews by upping the crystal and cara-whatever malts a bit or mashing a few degrees warmer than you otherwise would.

[piratedrunk]

Thanks! I was considering that one based on the review on beercomune (http://brewcommune.com/phpBB/yeast_profile.php?yeast_id=7)

Never heard of over attenuation, though!