lager question

[priceposey]

hey everyone.i just recieved my starter kit today and my ingredients will be here tommorow.however,before i knew better,i ordered my ingredients for a light lager and i have since learned that probably wasnt a good idea for a first timer but anyway.what will i be doing different to brew a lager beer compared to other types?

thanks in advance

[Beerconnoisseur]

It will take much longer than an ale, say, closer to 2 months than 2 weeks fermentation time. So, you will have a primary and secondary fermentation period. What you should do if you have more than one container is transfer the beer (after primary fermentation) to say, a bottling bucket, clean out your fermenter/carboy, and then transfer it back for secondary fermentation.

The real headache, however, is the need to keep lagers at a consistently cool (anywhere from 40 - 65 degrees Fahrenheit) temperature. The cooler you keep the beer, the longer fermentation time, typically. Afterwards, cool aging in bottles (lagering, in German) is also needed, for up to a few months. So, if you have a spare refridgerator, you can do all of these steps in it, using a temperature controller, like this one (http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=FE600)

Also, keep in mind: even if you brew a lager successfully, you may need to filter the beer, to strip out some of the yeast, as otherwise your beer may become VERY overcarbonated after bottling (You'll need a kegging setup to do this properly, at least, as far as I know and have read). But that has been my experience with lagers. Yours may vary. Good luck, and let us know what happens! :)

[priceposey]

Originally posted by Beerconnoisseur
It will take much longer than an ale, say, closer to 2 months than 2 weeks fermentation time. So, you will have a primary and secondary fermentation period. What you should do if you have more than one container is transfer the beer (after primary fermentation) to say, a bottling bucket, clean out your fermenter/carboy, and then transfer it back for secondary fermentation.

The real headache, however, is the need to keep lagers at a consistently cool (anywhere from 40 - 65 degrees Fahrenheit) temperature. The cooler you keep the beer, the longer fermentation time, typically. Afterwards, cool aging in bottles (lagering, in German) is also needed, for up to a few months. So, if you have a spare refridgerator, you can do all of these steps in it, using a temperature controller, like this one (http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=FE600)

Also, keep in mind: even if you brew a lager successfully, you may need to filter the beer, to strip out some of the yeast, as otherwise your beer may become VERY overcarbonated after bottling (You'll need a kegging setup to do this properly, at least, as far as I know and have read). But that has been my experience with lagers. Yours may vary. Good luck, and let us know what happens! :)

thanks for the quick response. at what time would i filter the beer and how would i filter the beer?sorry for the elementary questions but im trying to learn.

thanks,
Price

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by priceposey
thanks for the quick response. at what time would i filter the beer and how would i filter the beer?sorry for the elementary questions but im trying to learn.

thanks,
Price

Not a problem at all. Homebrewing proceeds through 3 steps: 1) brewing, 2) fermentation, and 3) bottling (and/or kegging). During the bottling/kegging stage is when you'll want to filter.

The reason kegs are used in filtering, is because you're using CO2, so you can push the beer from one keg to the other under pressure. The actual filters themselves are made from spun polypropylene, and are woven to various tolerances to accomplish finer or coarser filtration.

This (http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=FIL40) is what you'd need, in addition to the two kegs, CO2 tank, and regulator, at a bare minimum.

You can certainly try filtering by hand (with things like coffee filters), but in my experience, it's more of a pain than the effort is worth. Hope this helps. :)

[priceposey]

Originally posted by Beerconnoisseur
Not a problem at all. Homebrewing proceeds through 3 steps: 1) brewing, 2) fermentation, and 3) bottling (and/or kegging). During the bottling/kegging stage is when you'll want to filter.

The reason kegs are used in filtering, is because you're using CO2, so you can push the beer from one keg to the other under pressure. The actual filters themselves are made from spun polypropylene, and are woven to various tolerances to accomplish finer or coarser filtration.

This (http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=FIL40) is what you'd need, in addition to the two kegs, CO2 tank, and regulator, at a bare minimum.

You can certainly try filtering by hand (with things like coffee filters), but in my experience, it's more of a pain than the effort is worth. Hope this helps. :)

thanks for your help.

[vendejp]

hey Beerconnoisseur, if youre kegging and force carbonating, would the filtration only be for clarity?

also, why is filtration so important when bottling? is there a lot more yeast than an ale?

muchas gracias

[Brownbeard]

I would order an ale kit. You are probably not properly set up to lager. And did you say this was your first batch? I doubt you want to wait months to try your beer. By all means keep the lagering kit, you may want it later. I would say the extra cash to get the ale kit will be money well spent for you. Lagering first time out may be enough to keep you from wanting to continue. I am kind of surprised no one else has given this advice. It will cost you more to prepare to lager than it will to buy an ale kit.

[Fast_Eddy]

I have had very good luck getting lagers to drop bright using finings. Just leave it in the secondary longer and then use a fining like polycar(actually I used on once from Austin Homebrew and it worked the best - and I can't remember the name - something like "KC Finings"). If you get the results I've had you won't need to filter.

[vendejp]

ohh, one more thing about that filter (http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?page=detail.php3&pid=FIL40) ...

it says it speeds up conditioning in a keg to 2 days.... anyone know how/why?

it also says it has "two beverage out disconnects"..... ?
wouldnt it need one out and one in? an "out" leaving keg 1 and an "in" going to keg 2?

[priceposey]

the reason i ordered a lager kit to begin with was i wanted to brew something close to what i drink at home which is budlight(i know...i know...) so i would have something to go by.does anyone know of a step by step guide to brewing a lager?or does anyone know of something better suitable for a brewing virgin that is used to bud light,coors,miller etc...?


thanks

[Brownbeard]

Try a cream ale, the kit from Northern Brewer is supposed to be good. Maybe a pale ale, something without too much hops.

[Fast_Eddy]

Pale ales seem to be a near universal starting point. They're simple to make and the results are consistently good. I agree with Brownbeard don't get something with over the top hopping ........ yet ;)

[SLOSHomebrewers]

The filter is quite good for water, a brewing buddy of mine has used it for filtering water in an area where the water quality was not the best. Other brewers have used the filter for beer and even wine.

I prefer to use finings to get my beer, wine, cider, mead to clear. But, that's just me.

The reason that there are two beverage disconnects is because you want to fill the second keg slowly from the bottom up using the dip tube in that keg. If you were to use the air in to fill the keg, you would tremendously aerate the beer. That is the worst thing you could do at that point, especially since we are talking about delicate lagers.
________
TOYOTA PROBOX HISTORY (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Probox)

[SLOSHomebrewers]

I was requested to replicate a macrobrew one day, here is what I did:

8 lbs pale two row
0.5 ounce Cluster Hops (I foget the Alpha) (60 minute boil)


Single infusion mash, clean ale yeast.

to brew this using extract, substitude 4-5 lbs of Liquid Malt Extract (LME).

Don't forget to prime the bottle with 1.25 cups of Dry Malt Extract (DME).

Relax.

Later on you can attempt the whole lagering thing, after you build that fatty kegerator.
________
Toyota corolla e90 (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Corolla_E90)

[toneyc]

It is not *entirely* necessary to have cold temperatures to lager in, see the bottom of this page: http://www.stpats.com/lagerInfo.html

Strickly speaking, yes, that is the defining characteristic of a lager, but in a pinch you can do it at room temperature.

Dangit, I always blow the curve. My first several homebrews were a Dry Stout, a Bavarian Dopplebock, an Abbey Ale, and an Irish Stout. *Then* I started in on the Pale Ales.

:)
Toney.

[priceposey]

first of all i wanna say thanks to everyone who has replied with advice.i appreciate it very much.
o.k.,i broke down and ordered the wyeast american ale yeast to replace the lager yeast with.was this a smart move and do you forsee any problems?

thanks alot

[vendejp]

Originally posted by SLOSHomebrewers

The reason that there are two beverage disconnects is because you want to fill the second keg slowly from the bottom up using the dip tube in that keg. If you were to use the air in to fill the keg, you would tremendously aerate the beer. That is the worst thing you could do at that point, especially since we are talking about delicate lagers.

ahhh, yes.... that makes complete sense now that i think about it with the dip tube and all.

thanks!

[michaewa]

I made the same 'mistake,' ordered an octoberfest beer from AHS that was intended to be a lager. However, there were provisions in the instructions for fermenting at an ale temp (I think this is what is known as 'steam beer,' please correct me if I'm wrong).

It probably won't taste like it is 'supposed' to, but I tasted it at bottling time (it is still conditioning in the bottle now) and it tasted great with no filtering, no special fridge, etc.

I'll keep an eye out for bombs, and let you know how it turns out.

Cheers.

[mmmBeer...]

I’ve brewed quite a few lagers at room temperature with no ill effects. You just need to realize that you won’t get the “crispness” that is associated with lagers. You will produce more esters, and thus get a more fruity taste to your beer (which personally I like).

It is all a matter of taste.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Wow! This topic sure filled up quickly. So I will throw in my comments...

1) Fast_Eddy: Finings vs. filtration.

>> I have bottled and kept ales stored at warm temperatures, and unless I've done something crazy (like my last batch, where I filled the bottles up with less than 1" headspace, AND let the siphon suck up plenty of yeast), bottle explosions are usually very, very rare. Since I'm on the subject, you can avoid bottle explosions by examining the bottles regularly. If you can't see head space above the beer at eye level, or if the bottle cap is 'bulging' on top, then your beer is probably overpressurized.

But I digress. While an ale may become overpressurized with CO2, it is still usually drinkable. A lager can become overpressurized to the point where it is completely undrinkable for several hours. And this is after 2 months of fermentation time, no less! Yes, I have tried using finings to drop more yeast out of suspension for these lager batches, but even so, the gastointestinal pain resulting from the gas coming out of solution (when you guess wrong) is not something I would want anyone on this board to experience. Hence, I recommend filtration to strip out some of the yeast pretty strongly for lagers.

Your experience may vary, but I'm describing what I will do, next time I want to brew a lager. ;)

2) Toneyc: Room temperature lager brewing.

>> This may very well be possible, depending on where you live, the time of year, etc. Here in South Central Texas, it's not unusual to have days where the temp is 90 or close to 100 degrees Fahrenheit in the summer. So room temperature (at my house, at least) can be closer to 75-80 degrees Fahrenheit. Personally, I have found my batches tend to have more phenolic, clove-like flavors, when fermented at higher temperatures, and since that's not something I enjoy, I avoid higher temperatures like the plague. However, this may vary for some yeast strains more than others.

3) Vendejp: Sped up conditioning for filtered beer

>> I would guess that, ordinarily, you have to wait for the yeast to finish dropping out of suspension when bottling. But if you filter it out, then that's no longer a concern. This is just a guess on my part, though.

4) PricePosey: Equivalent to Macro-swill (Bud Light)

>> I'd try MoreBeer's American Lite (http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=KIT104), or Light Ale (http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=KIT105). They'll taste fairly familiar to you, I'll wager.

5) Michaewa: Steam Beer

>> Steam Beer is traditionally San Francisco Lager Yeast, brewed at the low range of ale temperatures. I've never heard it referred to other strains of lager yeast brewed at these temperatures.... but that's as far as I know.

Whew! I think I'll go have a beer now....

[Dave A]

Originally posted by michaewa
I made the same 'mistake,' ordered an octoberfest beer from AHS that was intended to be a lager.

I did the same thing, and handled it the same way. It's been in the keg for a month now (keg in beer fridge) and I'm dying to try it, it'll be a few more days as I figured I'd wait for October and have my own fest. I've even toyed with the idea of bringing it out on the front lawn and yelling "O'zapft is" (it's tapped) once the disconnects are installed.

Of course if the cream ale in the other keg runs out, the schedule may change!

A Canadian Ale would also be a good first brew, you've probably had a few Molsons/Labatts, my first was a "west coast pale ale" but it turned out to be an almost dead on Sam Adams Boston lager clone, It couldn't have been much closer if it had actually been a lager!

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by Beerconnoisseur

...........Yes, I have tried using finings to drop more yeast out of suspension for these lager batches..................



You should split some out of your next batch and try the fining I was talking about - the more I think about it the more I think the name was something like "Super Kleer". I was amazed - that batch of pils dropped bright(from considerable yeast haze) in about a day - and I mean basically crystal clear.

Anywho, like you said this is my personal opinion based on my experience.

[priceposey]

ok guys.i just recieved my beer kit and its not exactly what i expected and im kinda lost and needing some guidance here.if you guys can just get me through this first batch,i think i will be fine.this is what i received:

muntons "american style light beer"(hopped malt extract) 3lbs 5oz
muntons spraymalt extract plain extra light 1lb
priming sugar 5oz
LD Carlson rice syrup 1lb
Muntons active brewing yeast 6grams

here are the typed instructions:

1.place 1 gallon of water into the brew kettle.bring the water to a boil.

2.stir the malt extract and rice syrup into the kettle and boil for 10min.

3.stir the kettle frequently to prevent darkening the wort.

4.turn off the heat and stir in the american light extract.

5.keep stiring until the malt is completly dissolved.

6.add one gallon of cold water to the kettle.

7.pour remaining water into your fermenter then add the cooled wort.

8.pitch yeast when temperature is between 70 and 80 degrees.

9.ferment and bottle using your usual methods.


ok,after reading these directions i have 2 questions:

1.#7 remaining water from what?
2. is two gallons of water really enough?

im sorry if these are dumb questions but i am trying to do this as close to perfect as i can.

does anyone have some ideas on what i can do with these ingredients or should i just wait until my other ale yeast gets here?

thanks to everyone trying to help me.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by priceposey
ok guys.i just recieved my beer kit and its not exactly what i expected and im kinda lost and needing some guidance here.if you guys can just get me through this first batch,i think i will be fine.this is what i received:

muntons "american style light beer"(hopped malt extract) 3lbs 5oz
muntons spraymalt extract plain extra light 1lb
priming sugar 5oz
LD Carlson rice syrup 1lb
Muntons active brewing yeast 6grams

here are the typed instructions:

1.place 1 gallon of water into the brew kettle.bring the water to a boil.

2.stir the malt extract and rice syrup into the kettle and boil for 10min.

3.stir the kettle frequently to prevent darkening the wort.

4.turn off the heat and stir in the american light extract.

5.keep stiring until the malt is completly dissolved.

6.add one gallon of cold water to the kettle.

7.pour remaining water into your fermenter then add the cooled wort.

8.pitch yeast when temperature is between 70 and 80 degrees.

9.ferment and bottle using your usual methods.


ok,after reading these directions i have 2 questions:

1.#7 remaining water from what?
2. is two gallons of water really enough?

im sorry if these are dumb questions but i am trying to do this as close to perfect as i can.

does anyone have some ideas on what i can do with these ingredients or should i just wait until my other ale yeast gets here?

thanks to everyone trying to help me.

There are no dumb questions. :) Normally, even for partial boils, you'd want to do 3-4 gallons of water at a time, depending on the size of your brewing kettle. 5 1/4 lbs. of malt extract is a lot to add to just 2 gallons of water, at least, in my humble opinion (bear in mind, that the boil may drive off some water!), and scorching may be very difficult to prevent.

I would add these two to 3-4 gallons of boiling water:

muntons spraymalt extract plain extra light 1lb
LD Carlson rice syrup 1lb

then, turn down the heat and add the other malt extract. Boil for 30 minutes. Let the resulting liquid cool down, then transfer to the fermenter, and cap it so no bacteria fall in. Clean out your kettle, especially any scorched malt that may be at the bottom. Boil another 1-2 gallons of water, so any bacteria are killed, and let cool. Keep the lid on the kettle to keep new bacteria out, and add the clean water to get 5 gallons of beer total. Add the yeast when the temperature reaches 70 - 80 degrees F. Bottle with the priming sugar (dissolved in boiling water, and allowed to cool) in 2 weeks.

That's how I would start off... experiment further if you don't like the results. I've never used hopped malt extract, so others may have better recommendations on boil times. MoreBeer seems to prefer unhopped extract (and a 60 minute boil time for this), since you then have tighter control over your beer, and the resulting flavor. Hops are added at various points during the boil, usually at 60 minutes (for bittering) and with 5, 2, or 1 minute(s) left (for flavor and/or aroma), depending on the hop and beer style.

I would order one of MoreBeer's Extract Ingredient kits, since their instructions are pretty comprehensive. I've also attached a list of equipment I would recommend a beginner to acquire, to get better results for fewer $.

Hope this helps.

[priceposey]

Originally posted by Beerconnoisseur
There are no dumb questions. :) Normally, even for partial boils, you'd want to do 3-4 gallons of water at a time, depending on the size of your brewing kettle. 5 1/4 lbs. of malt extract is a lot to add to just 2 gallons of water, at least, in my humble opinion (bear in mind, that the boil may drive off some water!), and scorching may be very difficult to prevent.

I would add these two to 3-4 gallons of boiling water:

muntons spraymalt extract plain extra light 1lb
LD Carlson rice syrup 1lb

then, turn down the heat and add the other malt extract. Boil for 30 minutes. Let the resulting liquid cool down, then transfer to the fermenter, and cap it so no bacteria fall in. Clean out your kettle, especially any scorched malt that may be at the bottom. Boil another 1-2 gallons of water, so any bacteria are killed, and let cool. Keep the lid on the kettle to keep new bacteria out, and add the clean water to get 5 gallons of beer total. Add the yeast when the temperature reaches 70 - 80 degrees F. Bottle with the priming sugar (dissolved in boiling water, and allowed to cool) in 2 weeks.

That's how I would start off... experiment further if you don't like the results. I've never used hopped malt extract, so others may have better recommendations on boil times. MoreBeer seems to prefer unhopped extract (and a 60 minute boil time for this), since you then have tighter control over your beer, and the resulting flavor. Hops are added at various points during the boil, usually at 60 minutes (for bittering) and with 5, 2, or 1 minute(s) left (for flavor and/or aroma), depending on the hop and beer style.

I would order one of MoreBeer's Extract Ingredient kits, since their instructions are pretty comprehensive. I've also attached a list of equipment I would recommend a beginner to acquire, to get better results for fewer $.

Hope this helps.

thank you very much for the detailed instructions Beerconnoisseur.i appreciate someone taking this time with me very muchi will try this and let you know how everything turns out.

once againn thanks,
price