What do you call a highly hopped lager? [Archive]

BlueCanoe

11-15-2006, 08:35 PM

Looking at the homebrew style guide, it looks like Bohemian pilsners and alts are the only fairly hoppy/bitter traditional lagers. The rest are light and/or trend toward malty flavors.

I made an "Imperial pilsner" last winter, which I dry-hopped. That may have been my inspiration when I described it to a friend as "IPA"-like. It wasn't bitter, though.

A "hopped lager"? "Hoppils"? "IPL"?

BlueCanoe

11-15-2006, 08:39 PM

I'm talking IBU's on par with a Stone IPA. I've enjoyed (imported) Pilsner Urquell, and made a homebrewed Czech Pilsner last winter, and I was thinking bigger in the bitterness and dry-hopped departments (and alcohol). Using American IPA hops: the three C's or Simcoe or something like that.

Maybe I'd just call it "imperial pilsner" again, although it wouldn't be "imperial" in any sort of historical sense.

steveh

11-16-2006, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by BlueCanoe
Maybe I'd just call it "imperial pilsner" again, although it wouldn't be "imperial" in any sort of historical sense.

Yeah, the "Imperial" term is becoming akin to "turbo or supercharged," I always wanted a "turbocharged, peripheral disc drive." Wonder how they get that little turbo in there and how it uses the exhaust waste from the internal combustion... but I digress.

Imperial is losing the history and romance of its original meaning, that being a beer brewed specifically for the imperial Russian court. The fact that it was produced highly hopped and high gravity was for the same reason as IPA - slow, distant travel. Necessity of the time, not because the recipe called for it. Just as IPA started life as a normal Pale Ale, brewed to conditions for shipping to India, Imperial Stout started as a normal Stout brewed to survive a trip to a big fan base.

Anything being labeled "imperial" these days ought to just be called "hop lovers'" or IYF (insert beer of choice here).

You said your Imperial Pilsner didn't turn out hoppy, even after dry-hopping. I'd take a bet and guess you used noble hops because it was a Pils - Saaz, Halertauer, Perle? These hops are very mellow when compared with some of the new strains available today. The Nobles were cultivated as accent to the malt in beer, spice - if you will. Not to create their own individual character in a brew, but to work as a team with the malt flavors.

Saaz and Tetnang are about the spiciest (hoppiest) you'd get to create that hoppy lager, but it still won't be a Stone or Three Floyds clone. And if you use Cascade, Simcoe, or the like, I'd imagine you'd get a very clean version of an APA.

The 2 Imperial Pilsners I've tried have tasted like slightly hoppier Blonde Bocks to me. When I look for a Bock, I'm not looking for hops, I can find them in an IPA.

S.

Sorry, just a bit wordy this morning - JMHO anyway.

chazwicke

11-16-2006, 09:56 AM

I was impressed by the Sam Adams limited release Imperial Pils last year. I had expected less but was pleasantly suprised. I often shy away from the new "imperial" beers because I'm not as interested in over the top alcohol or ibu flavors. They have their place but i don't want them as regular drinking or session brews at all. In fact, 10 years ago, my favorite style offered up by American brewers was IPA. This is no longer the case. Todays APAs are the IPAs of that era. Today's IPAs have gone over the top. And recently, I've found myself bored with APAs a little bit too. Sort of seems that they are all becoming the same and brewers are off trying to come up with newer, weirder, bigger styles and have left the staple styles to languish a bit. I wish they would concentrate on some of the Pale Ales and make them very well instead of making adequate APAs and spending time on the specialty brews. I've actually been enjoying lagers this fall season more than some of the ales. (Excepting the cask conditioned variety).

msk

11-16-2006, 10:00 AM

on the first question in the post, I would potentially call it "rescued"

I made a munich lager. . . I think munich is nasty stuff, both in smell and flavor [my first APA had the smell in the wort, and I thought it was carapils, until I made this lager]. I broke out an ounce of the Mt Hood, heated some water, tossed in half for a 5 minute boil, turned off the heat and tossed in the other half ounce, and when cool, I poured it into the secondary. The munich lager was much improved

Payson

11-16-2006, 10:03 AM

I was impressed by the Sam Adams limited release Imperial Pils last year.

Likewise. That's a fine beer. I agree with earlier statements that "Imperial" is getting overused!

Mad Scientist

11-16-2006, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Payson
Likewise. That's a fine beer. I agree with earlier statements that "Imperial" is getting overused!

While I cannot get enough of IIPAs, it seems that everything is getting imperial'd these days. So times it is a bad thing, sometimes it is a good thing. But I have notcied the trend too. When I want a pale ale, I want a a pale ale, not an IPA...ditto, for the IPAs. Whiel it is okay to get crazy on the recipes and slap imperial on it, the staples beed to adhere strongly to style guildlines....

Mad Scientist

11-16-2006, 02:25 PM

And is not okay to skip editing your crappy typing...sorry.

steveh

11-16-2006, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by msk
I made a munich lager. . . I think munich is nasty stuff, both in smell and flavor

Methinks you may have fermented that concoction a bit too warm. The DMS (cooked vegetable aromas) that is natural, though faint, from Pils malt and lager yeast is heightened from too warm a ferment (yes, voice of experience - lagers are difficult to home-brew).

A good Munich Helles will have a mellow bready aroma and flavor with a nice hint of Hellertauer balanced all around - just like the Spaten Helles I had on tap last night, wonderful.

S.

HogieWan

11-16-2006, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by steveh
just like the Spaten Helles I had on tap last night, wonderful.

S.

never had Spaten's but I do love Paulaner's. I'm planning on doing a helles this winter - you got a good recipe?

steveh

11-16-2006, 06:19 PM

Sorry, as I said - always had difficulty with lagers. There are some good ones for cloning Paulaner and Lowenbrau, I believe. And Dornbucsh's Classic Series book on Munich Helles has good insight.

S.

BlueCanoe

11-16-2006, 07:30 PM

it wouldn't be "imperial" in any sort of historical sense.Anything being labeled "imperial" these days ought to just be called "hop lovers'" or IYF (insert beer of choice here).Whiel it is okay to get crazy on the recipes and slap imperial on it, the staples beed to adhere strongly to style guildlines....
Guys, I didn't intend to start a "trads" vs. "experimental" debate here. I think I agree with most of what's been said in this thread:

- that traditional styles are important and should be brewed within strict limits, including imperial stout and (British) IPA.
- that some brewers are definitely pushing the envelope waaay past tradition with 23% ABV / 300 IBU </exaggeration> monster brews that are labeled often generically with "imperial".
- that a light-bodied lager which is agressively hopped (similarly to an American IPA) sounds pretty tasty.

If I were to re-state my original question: in terms of a style name, what would you call a very highly hopped (relative to tradition), bitter, light-bodied lager?

I'm thinking 6% ABV, golden-copper color, crisp, distinct mouth-feel but not overly malty, bitter, 60-80 IBUs, assertive hop flavor and aroma.

It seems to me based on this thread's discussion that traditional style names are out, as this would clearly fall outside of their limits. This would not be a traditional beer.

I'm left with something like "hop lager".

ScottKingofBeer

11-17-2006, 02:51 AM

IF you can find it, I would recommend the Hop Zeppelin from Lang Creek Brewing. I don't think it was over the top in alcohol, I would guess it was under 6%, but it was highly, highly hopped. I was expecting an IPA when I tried it and was shocked by the pilsner like body, (it may have been a Kolsch.) I would say Saaz are the predominate hops here, but I think they used some Cascade and Amarillo to give it a little extra punch. It was by far the hoppiest lager I ever had, yet very quaffable.

steveh

11-17-2006, 05:48 AM

Originally posted by BlueCanoe
It seems to me based on this thread's discussion that traditional style names are out, as this would clearly fall outside of their limits. This would not be a traditional beer.

Deep in passionate discussion over a favorite subject, this is really what's between the lines. The only really hoppy lager is the Bohemian Pils, with German Pils close behind.

Although, thinking in wider terms, Sam Adam's Boston Lager is pretty hoppy with noble hops and doesn't fall into any real style guidelines. Maybe Jim Koch has created a new lager?

S.

gointomexico

11-18-2006, 02:15 AM

Sam Adam's Boston Lager is pretty hoppy with noble hops and doesn't fall into any real style guidelines.
I think that his beer is an alt.

steveh

11-18-2006, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by gointomexico
I think that his beer is an alt.

I find it too hoppy for an Alt and there's too clean an aftertaste from the use of bottom-fermenting yeast - Alts use top-fermenting.

S.

ScottKingofBeer

11-18-2006, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by steveh
\ The only really hoppy lager is the Bohemian Pils, with German Pils close behind.

A Bohemian Pils should be hoppy, but let's face it none of them even comes remotely close to an the level of Hoppiness of an American Style IPA, which is what the original question was. My answer is that no name has been given to such a style. I do believe there a few commercial examples of this, as of yet, unnamed style. Hop Zeppelin, as I mentoned previously, being one of them. Perhaps Prima Pils by Victory is another? I haven't ever tasted this brew but it has a picture of a hop leaf on the bottle, I am going to guess that this is a pretty hoppy pils. I do think, judging by my Hop Zeppelin experience, that such a style could be quite delicious and it wouln't suprise me to see more brewers start to experiment in this realm. However, I dont see this style taking off in the near future because pilsners take so long to brew, it's just not very cost effectve for most microbrewers. I also think that if a brewer is going to offer a pilsner, in most cases he is going to want a greater contrast between the pilsner(s) and the ales being offered then what you would get with a super-hopped Pilsner.

Mad Scientist

11-18-2006, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by ScottKingofBeer
A Bohemian Pils should be hoppy, but let's face it none of them even comes remotely close to an the level of Hoppiness of an American Style IPA, which is what the original question was. My answer is that no name has been given to such a style. I do believe there a few commercial examples of this, as of yet, unnamed style. Hop Zeppelin, as I mentoned previously, being one of them. Perhaps Prima Pils by Victory is another? I haven't ever tasted this brew but it has a picture of a hop leaf on the bottle, I am going to guess that this is a pretty hoppy pils. I do think, judging by my Hop Zeppelin experience, that such a style could be quite delicious and it wouln't suprise me to see more brewers start to experiment in this realm. However, I dont see this style taking off in the near future because pilsners take so long to brew, it's just not very cost effectve for most microbrewers. I also think that if a brewer is going to offer a pilsner, in most cases he is going to want a greater contrast between the pilsner(s) and the ales being offered then what you would get with a super-hopped Pilsner.

Cost effective for microbrewers? Consider the cost of a microbrewed IIPA....I made one recently that used 13 oz hops for five gallons, and 18 lbs of malt--there was nothign cost effective about it, buit it tastes damn fine.

Prima Pils is very good, but not as hoppy as you are seeking, but I though of a name:

American India Lager

BlueCanoe

11-18-2006, 08:26 PM

ScottKoB, I'm visiting your great city of Portland this weekend, and I'm about to step out the door to go down to the Belmont Station bottle shop. Their website (http://www.belmont-station.com/bst_beer.html) says they've got the Victory Prima Pils but not the Lang Creek Hop Zeppelin. I'll ask and see if they have any other commercial examples of a super hopped lager.

Off topic, I'm most excited though to get my hands on Siletz's Spruce Ale, which I've only had once and inspired much of my homebrewing.

ontap78

11-18-2006, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
Cost effective for microbrewers? Consider the cost of a microbrewed IIPA....I made one recently that used 13 oz hops for five gallons, and 18 lbs of malt--there was nothign cost effective about it, buit it tastes damn fine. I think he was referring to the time (time is money) involved in producing lagers as opposed to ales. You get faster return on your investment making ales.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going out to fire up the grill and make 3 pound Imperial hamburger with six slices of cheese.:D

BlueCanoe

11-18-2006, 10:18 PM

Prima Pils is very good, but not as hoppy as you are seeking
Drinking it right now, I'd agree. Hoppier than most pilsners I've had, but it's only about half way to what I was imagining. Also the label says it's brewed with continental hops and German malts, so I'd say it's along the lines of its namesake style.

Mad Scientist

11-18-2006, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by ontap78
I think he was referring to the time (time is money) involved in producing lagers as opposed to ales. You get faster return on your investment making ales.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going out to fire up the grill and make 3 pound Imperial hamburger with six slices of cheese.:D

Ummm......that would be a medium sized Texas kids burger...you also forgot the bacon and the stilton (or gorgonzola, which ever you prefer). Roasted chiles are also a nice addition or maybe some carmelized onions. If I add a good cheese I likely won't add much else...
Now when you say 'fire up the grill' you do mean get the oak and/or meaquite lit and ready for grilling....RIGHT?

Blue, I really enjoy that Prima Pils....first had it last winter heading down to the ranch. the sixer was enough to last 1/2 the trip....

jjpm74

11-19-2006, 12:15 AM

To me, it's a beer with a nice malt backbone, but the hops are the driving force behind both the aroma and flavor profiles. In a hoppy lager, the hops should compliment the malt to the point of pushing it into the backdrop and is a beer meant to be consumed fresh and ideally on cask or at least draught.

Hoppy does not have to mean citrussy or perfumy in the case of more hoppy lagers, nor does it have to mean bitter. I've had some excellent pilsners that were neither of the two but had a great balance that made the beer drinkable and enjoyable without resembling any IPA or APA too closely.

ScottKingofBeer

11-19-2006, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by BlueCanoe
ScottKoB, I'm visiting your great city of Portland this weekend, and I'm about to step out the door to go down to the Belmont Station bottle shop. Their website (http://www.belmont-station.com/bst_beer.html) says they've got the Victory Prima Pils but not the Lang Creek Hop Zeppelin.

The Prima suggestion was just a guess, myself have nto tried it. But the Hop Zeppelin is exactly what you are describing. I just went to Lang Creeks website and saw no mention of that beer whatsoever. It must be draft only. wasn't hard to fnnd arund Kalispell f you find yourself around those parts. Reds, Moose's saloon, and the Cottage Bar are your likely best bets. I just called the brewery an asked if they distrubte that one this far west. Its possible, I have seen the tri-motor amber around. Anyway, if I get a call back II will let you know what I find out. What beer hotspots did you hit in PDX?

BlueCanoe

12-11-2006, 02:28 PM

Yesterday I brewed an attempt at a "hop lager":

5 gal.
American 2 row, Vienna, Carapils
OG: 1.049
2 oz. Centennial - 45 min.
1 oz. Cascade - 45 min.
1 oz. Cascade - 30 min.
1 oz. Cascade - 15 min.
1 oz. Cascade - 5 min.
Budvar yeast (Wyeast #2000)

I'll let you know how it turns out. :)

Mad Scientist

12-11-2006, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by BlueCanoe
Yesterday I brewed an attempt at a "hop lager":

Call it a haager

steveh

12-11-2006, 03:01 PM

I predict it will taste very similar to Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Honest.

S.

BlueCanoe

12-11-2006, 11:35 PM

Steveh, I wouldn't be suprised if it did. This whole discussion may have been pointless in a practical sense. But that'd be ok, because I like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. :D

steveh

12-12-2006, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by BlueCanoe
because I like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

Nothin' at all wrong with that, but when I saw all of those Cascades...

S.

BlueCanoe

03-27-2007, 03:38 PM

Tasting the results of my "hop lager" experiment, I'd have to say that it did come out close to what I was aiming for: a dry, clean, pilsner-esque body with a huge blossoming hop flavor & bitter bite at the end. Sierra Nevada would taste "chewy" next to this crisp lager. I like it...

dparsons

03-27-2007, 11:17 PM

Nice. I like HopLagers too. Lots of hop aroma.

steveh

03-28-2007, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by BlueCanoe
Sierra Nevada would taste "chewy" next to this crisp lager. I like it...

What does "chewy" taste like? Do you mean mouth-feel or body? Because I find SNPA very crisp -- Celebration is thicker and sweeter - maybe chewy.

How is the character of all the Cascades? People tend to drink SNPA for a while, then get swept away by all the hop-bombs out there and forget that the SN is pretty mellow comparatively. Have you had an SNPA in a while? Might want to do a side-by-side with your Pils.

S.

BlueCanoe

03-30-2007, 08:18 PM

I haven't done a side-by-side tasting with SNPA yet, but upon further review, it probably isn't that far off. I'd say more hop bitterness and less hop flavor/aroma than SNPA.

Photo here (makes it look more orange than it really is):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bluecanoe/440254205/

Mad Scientist

03-30-2007, 08:39 PM

Looks nice though, when can you send me a bottle?

BlueCanoe

03-30-2007, 08:49 PM

Sorry Boerne, but, uh... Seattle doesn't have any post offices. Yeah. It's unfortunate, but we get by. One unlucky guy has to make a trip to California to deliver everyone's taxes. Kind of like the Pony Express, I guess. I'll see if I know anyone headed to Texas. Ummm, nope. :D

BrewDog

03-31-2007, 10:13 AM

BlueCanoe-

Are you IN Seattle or NEAR Seattle?

BlueCanoe

03-31-2007, 11:31 AM

In Seattle's U District. Bob's is my local home brew shop. Although some days I wished I lived someplace like North Bend.

BrewDog

03-31-2007, 12:49 PM

Cool-

We should get a bunch of us together some time for a brew day.

ScottKingofBeer

05-30-2007, 02:16 AM

BlueCanoe, I am drinking the beer you have been looking for right now. It's called Envy Imperial Pilsner and it's brewed by Midnight Sun Brewing out of Anchorage. It tastes a lot like like PIlsner Urquell With 10x the hops. This is one of the hoppiest beers I have ever had, but it's very easy drinking. I would be suprised if you can't find a bomber at Bottleworks.