Advanced all grain question

[Beerconnoisseur]

So, last night I brewed up an all-grain IPA, using picnic cooler mash tun/sparge tanks. I decided to give double decoction mashing a try, and all was proceeding relatively smoothly. I even hit most of the strike temps (120 actual vs. 104 desired degrees F [held for 30 minutes], 132 actual vs. 140 desired degrees F [held for 10 minutes], and 160 actual and desired degrees F [held for 45 minutes]).

However, when I got to sparging, I suddenly had the stuck mash from hell. It makes sense that the grain would draw down from each decoction, and become stuck. So, my question is: has anyone else tried decoction mashing, and if so, how do you avoid this unpleasantry?

[Fast_Eddy]

I made a double decoction pils not so long ago, and I didn't have any trouble with a stuck run-off.

Yours getting stuck could've just been one of those things - bad luck, even. My last beer was a single infusion and for no good reason I had a b*tch of a time with it getting stuck.

[SLOSHomebrewers]

Assuming you have not used rolled oats or rolled barley in your IPA, the only reason I can see why you would have a stuck run-off is if you milled your grain too much. If you milled the grain so much as to make a lot of flour, that could plug things up pretty good and make a cloudy beer.
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[Fast_Eddy]

There a definitely other reasons than over milled grain for a stuck run-off - too high a run-off rate will compact the grain bed, too little or no foundation water(if you transfer from a mash tun to a lauter tun), huge percentage of wheat(very little husk - some brewers use rice hulls to combat this) in grain bill, allowing water level to get too low into the grain bed can compact the grain.... just plain bad luck.....

I've never had most of the above problems but they are presented as potential problems in most brewing literature.

[Beerconnoisseur]

I didn't have any rolled oats/barley, or any wheat as part of the recipe. And I let MoreBeer mill the grain for me.

So, what I may do for next time, is order the grain un-milled, and crush a pound or so very coarse, another pound somewhat coarse, the next few pounds somewhat fine, and the final pound or so very fine. If it works well, I will apprise everyone of the results.

Oh, and it is already fermenting away quite vigorously. I guess the rest at 130 and all the extra Free Amino Nitrogen really helped....

[SLOSHomebrewers]

You are right Fast_Eddy, there are a ton of other reasons for a stuck run-off. I seem to have forgotten what I have not personally experienced.

The guys at morebeer.com pretty much have the grain milling thing down.

I don't know if it would be worth it to go to all the trouble of that complicated milling schedule, perhaps the problem is with too fast of a sparge compacting the grain bed.
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[shaken]

Quite honestly, the only time I've had a stuck run-of is when I have ground the grain too fine. or insisted on crushing wheat (first time with the wheat). The process of going from coarse to fine seems like just prolonging the agony of the stuck run-off. All you want to do is separate the husk from the barley. I've had run-off's take as long as 3 hours (on a 7 bbl system). No matter what, you need the consistent "sparge water/run-off" level. In emergencies, I've cut X's in the top of the grain bed to allow the liquid to pass through.

[Fast_Eddy]

I've had a couple stuck that I attribute to "too fast of a run-off". One of them was a total nightmare - it ended with me having to remove all grain and liquid from the mash tun and then put all of back in and continue. I tried everything before removing the grain - X's, stirring, cursing, stirring, cursing, blow into the drain tube (water blasting out the top of the tun and going everywhere when I blew too hard), extra passionate cursing, hand jabbed into 165F water to bottom to try to clear false bottom, cursing in pain, repeat, repeat, gave up took it out then put it back and start again. I now conduct my run-offs more slowly ;)

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by shaken
No matter what, you need the consistent "sparge water/run-off" level.

So wait, if you're doing a decoction mash... once you take a wort sample, you immediately cover with sparge water, before you return the wort sample to the top of the mash? How does that work? What if your picnic cooler doesn't have enough room for all the grain/wort sample/sparge water? Do a partial mash instead? I've read Palmer's section on decoction mashing, but I must confess I'm still sorely confused here... :confused:

[shaken]

You take the sample to the desired temp, and return to your mash to increase for each step. You won't have any more room for extra water. The sparging is at the end of your mashing, as you transfer to your brew kettle at 170 degrees.

[shaken]

sorry.....I meant sparging at 170 degrees

[Fast_Eddy]

Beerconnoisseur how are you combining decoctions with sparge water?

The decoctions are done during the mash not during the lauter/sparge. You don't add water to the mash after you pull a decoction.

Now I'm a little confused about what we're discussing.

[shaken]

Beerconnoisseur....

Are you pulling just the wort from the drain, or are you taking some of the grain with it? If you're just using the wort, then you definitely will have a stuck run-off. Pull it from the top with some grain too. Heat your pulled mash to the temp. you want and then put it back into your main tun. Just do this for the number times you do the decoction. Acid rest, protein rest. sacc. rest ...then do your sparge with the 170 water...... does that make sense?

[Beerconnoisseur]

Originally posted by shaken
You take the sample to the desired temp, and return to your mash to increase for each step. You won't have any more room for extra water. The sparging is at the end of your mashing, as you transfer to your brew kettle at 170 degrees.

I was doing it this way, but each of my decoctions only involved taking wort, not including any grains. Which would go a long way towards explaining why I had the stuck mash from hell. Ah well, live and learn, and at least I have the technique down before I brew the Doppelbock...

Oh, and thanks for the great advice! :)

[Fast_Eddy]

Also for decoctions they should be very stiff - should be mostly all grain.

See http://www.stpats.com/grainins.htm for another good description of a double decoction brewing.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Ok, this batch is finished, and I bottled 4 days ago (adding apricot extract to MoreBeer's all-grain Columbus hopped IPA). I just couldn't seem to help myself, so I cracked open a bottle tonight, and oh, man.

This stuff is good. Damn good. An excellent blend of malt, hops, and fruit flavor. The one thing which worries me, is that I can't quite put my mind around the concept that it could get even better with age. It tastes THAT GOOD already. Wow!

Now, if the experimental beer I made with almost-random ingredients thrown together turns out well, I will post the results for that. It's an extract brew, so it would be off-topic slightly, but oh well. Posterity should benefit anyway. :p