Sour/Turbid Mash

[HogieWan]

I'm thinking of brewing a Flander's Red Ale soon (you read that right , chaz), and was wondering if anyone has ever done a sour mash or at least has a good link worth reading.

I'm pretty familiar with the process [mash some of the grain, throw in a handful of grain when it cools a bit to let the bacteria on the grain take off - add that sour mash to the real mash later - brew as normal]. However, I don't know how much of the grain I should sour and for how long.

[Mad Scientist]

I understand the soured mash to be 10% or less.

[HogieWan]

I was considering 10%, but that was just a guess. I may just have to brew brew this and see.

I'm thinking about mashing 10% of the base malt during the brew-before's mash and leaving it to sour the whole time that beer is fermenting. When it's time to brew the Flander's, I'll add the rank grain, mash, sparge, brew and ferment with a clean strain. Any objections?

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I was considering 10%, but that was just a guess. I may just have to brew brew this and see.

I'm thinking about mashing 10% of the base malt during the brew-before's mash and leaving it to sour the whole time that beer is fermenting. When it's time to brew the Flander's, I'll add the rank grain, mash, sparge, brew and ferment with a clean strain. Any objections?

Well, while the summer heat is mor or less over, I find that even in the fall, grain spoils really really fast.....I would not let this sit and sour more than 24 to 48

[Otis_The_Drunk]

From the recipes I have read on sour mash, about 1/2 LB added and then left for 10 - 24 hours depending on how sour you want it. I've never done a sour mash but I have tought about it.

[HogieWan]

I'm now thinking that I should do a very small amount of grain and sour it for a longer period (2-3 weeks). This way it should be easier to replicate because almost all the sugar would be eaten by the bacteria.

[alvin]

Mash 10% of your regular mash and place it in a yogurt maker at 110 deg. F and keep it plugged in for 24 - 48 hours. All available sugar will be converted to lactic acid. Two days later mash your regular mash and place the sour mash with the regular mash and sparge as usual.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by alvin
Mash 10% of your regular mash and place it in a yogurt maker at 110 deg. F and keep it plugged in for 24 - 48 hours. All available sugar will be converted to lactic acid. Two days later mash your regular mash and place the sour mash with the regular mash and sparge as usual.

how sour will the result be with 10%? Am I looking at lambic sour, or flander's red sour?

[CiderJoe]

What yeast are you going to use? This is a really interesting decussion.

I'd be really worried about letting grain sour for 2-3 weeks. I've seen spent grain that has been been sitting around for days waiting to be sent to farmers as animal feed, and it gets pretty rank.

[HogieWan]

it's going to get really rank, but the boiling gets rid of some of it. I was saying 2-3 weeks, but with a much smaller amount.

[CiderJoe]

SO is the yeast a secret? Are you going to get a Flanders Red Yeast?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by CiderJoe
SO is the yeast a secret? Are you going to get a Flanders Red Yeast?

flander's red yeast is just a yeast and bacteria blend. If you sour the beer first, you just need a clean ale yeast like 1056

[CiderJoe]

yeast is an issue. I'm limited with that as well, but my shop has started carrying WYeast products, though not the full line.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by CiderJoe
yeast is an issue. I'm limited with that as well, but my shop has started carrying WYeast products, though not the full line.

any clean yeast or a dry yeast at lower temps

[mortong]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I'm now thinking that I should do a very small amount of grain and sour it for a longer period (2-3 weeks). This way it should be easier to replicate because almost all the sugar would be eaten by the bacteria.

Papazian recommends mashing the entire batch as normal, minus 1/2 pound of your base malt. When mash is done, stabilize your temp at 130 degrees and transfer to wort to a 5 gallon bucket/container that you can seal. Throw in your remaining 1/2# of malt. Seal it, making sure to cover as close to the surface of the wort as possible. Wrap the container in a blanket or sleeping bag to help maintain temp. Let it sit for 13-24 hours before brewing. If it's not sour enough, let it sit longer next time.

I let mine sit 24 hours and the sourness is perfect so far. I can't wait to bottle.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by mortong
If it's not sour enough, let it sit longer next time.


the problem with that is I can't just move brewday back by a day - I'd have to wait another week. I'm not trying for a lambic.

I was thinking of using less grain for longer because the bacteria would completely finish off all the sugars in the small wort, and will would be easily reproduced or tweaked without worrying about exact times and tempetures

[brewmonkey]

I did a Flanders red several years back. I did 50% (I have also done 100%) of the mash which I mashed in on Friday night before I left the pub for the weekend. I then wrapped the tun in saran wrap and put the lid on and went home.

On Monday I brought the mash back up to temp and went ahead and finished mashing in the rest of the grist.

Going with 50% of the mash gave me what I would say was just about perfect sourness. I wish I had my brew logs with me so I could give you the specifics of the brew but off the top of my head I remember this had the lowest pH of any mash I have ever worked with as well the beer itself was a bit lower then I had anticipated. These are some things to keep an eye on as too low and you can experience more acidity then you really are wanting.